Dear Gameplay and Balance: tanks are going to be fine in 5.16, don't worry.

HateDaddy··46 votes·3,881 views

Now before you bombard me in downvotes, please, I ask that you read this and allow me to explain exactly why. Some of this is perception, some of this is reality.

Let's start off with this: tanks have been good for a long time. When was the last time Maokai top wasn't a tier 1 top laner? Mid-season 4? Mundo? He's always off and on, never a bad pick (not so much for solo queue, but we will get to that). Sion? Still off and on, was tier 1 by far for a long time. I would still consider him tier 2. Shen is back. Gragas is still God tier. Braumstache is back in full swing. Nautilus top is still tier 1 and will continue to be, tier 2 in support alongside champions like Leona. I have no idea why people stopped playing Sej, she's still very good. Do I need to even explain Alistar atm?

I'm telling you this now: none of this is going to change next patch. Figjters were buffed, but fighters will now actually function as fighters - not champions that stack resists and abuse base damages, something that has often pushed tanks out of the meta in top lane entirely (See Renekton/Trundle/Shyv in s3/early s4). Tanks will be good in accompany with bruisers (support tanks especially) and traditional tank tops will be reliable counterrpicks to shut them down, in fact i suspect tanks will thrive at this.

Now, I realize armor items overall received a nerf in value and in cost effeciency. However, there's more variety in armor itemization that excels at different things. Deadmans plate will be god-tier on anything looking to hard engage, tanks and figjters alike. Randuins will help vs crit stacking carries. Sunfire will probably resurface as a premier item in top lane. Frozen Heart is still ridiculously good. MR also just got buffed, which helps top lane tanks mostly. Locket is still good for supports.

But here's the thing, true tanks are still innately ridiculously durable, these changes won't push them out of the game. And that hasn't changed, nor will it. And that's why riot gave buffs to different tanks armor that don't typically acquire a lot of gold, just to make sure they didn't overdo it on the armor changes, and I don't think they did.

In reality, the only things that have changed are the strength of tank junglers (and this is mostly a competitive thing) and I'll get to that, and eliminating tanks like Maokai, Gragas and nautilus from soloing carries while being unkillable. That was an unhealthy style of play and it blurred the line between tanks and bruisers/fighters. These changes give bruisers their identities back via direct changes to them, item changes for them and item changes for tanks. This change will redefine both bruisers roles and tanks roles, turning tanks into what they're supposed to be: disrupters, damage soakers and initiators, not champions that dive back lines and solo carries until those carries have 5-6 items to actually kill them. Trust me, tanks will be good and if you're a tank player, you're not going to lose your power to disrupt and soak damage. That's still in tact.

Now, as for jungle tanks. Here's the deal fellas, in competitive league of legends, tanks in the jungle have never really been balanced. They're either so obnoxiously overtuned directly or through itemixation that they're completely overpowered with just 2-3 items alone (because in competitive play, the jungle role is especially starved on income). This is the only way they see competitive play, otherwise they're just not considered good. That's still a big problem and riot has been actively trying to figure that out for the last 2 years. I don't know the answer to it either, to be honest.

However, that said, solo queue-wise, tank junglers are still going to be extremely powerful. They still have been, despite the recent runeglaive and devourer junglers dominating solo queue as well. Champs like Sej, Amumu, Gragas etc always have pretty good winrates because in solo queue, tank junglers are much more likely to get gold since you won't be sacrificing your camps and exp to the rest of your team, and it's hard to coordinate efforts to shut them down early when they're vulnerable.

So long story short folks, tanks are still going to be good. Bruisers will be back and I suspect this patch could see the most balanced diversity we've had in a very long time.

As always, thanks for reading this, lovers.

57 Comments

65wQhMlGlT5 votes

What is up with this gif, this is like the 5th time I've seen it today.

Fadedpf4 votes

a spiderman movie

Enosetc4 votes

i'm legitimately concerned that titanic hydra will make tanks too powerful tbh. the only nerf to tank items that really bothered me was them removing catalyst's passive from righteous glory. kinda dumb imo for tank junglers that need that sustain.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

i'm legitimately concerned that titanic hydra will make tanks too powerful tbh. the only nerf to tank items that really bothered me was them removing catalyst's passive from righteous glory. kinda dumb imo for tank junglers that need that sustain.

It's not going to be that big of a deal, in regards to RGs passive. By the time you finish RG, after you've already finished your jungle item and tier 2 boots as most junglers will in conjunction with completing RG, sustain in the jungle won't even be an issue anymore as you won't be spending as much time clearing it and you'll still have decent regen.

As for titanic hydra, I literally don't know. I'm speculating on a lot of the bruiser item changes and I think they'll all be good. But how good? Not a clue.

Enosetc2 votes

{quoted}

It's not going to be that big of a deal, in regards to RGs passive. By the time you finish RG, after you've already finished your jungle item and tier 2 boots as most junglers will in conjunction with completing RG, sustain in the jungle won't even be an issue anymore as you won't be spending as much time clearing it and you'll still have decent regen.

As for titanic hydra, I literally don't know. I'm speculating on a lot of the bruiser item changes and I think they'll all be good. But how good? Not a clue.

i'm have metagolem 2.0 nightmare fantasies because of this item's introduction, but yeah. i have no idea how much of an effect it'll have. hopefully it won't make shit like darius too overbearing

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

i'm have metagolem 2.0 nightmare fantasies because of this item's introduction, but yeah. i have no idea how much of an effect it'll have. hopefully it won't make shit like darius too overbearing

Well, Darius' lane phase took a hit in exchange for a better late game through item and direct kit changes. He's still going to be kitable and prone to peel, but he will be doing more damage overall more consistently as well.

I wouldn't worry too much, even if these items are a bit overtuned, they'll get balanced properly accordingly.

Axis the Dragon1 votes

At least FoN is gone, so it won't be the full metagolem amirite

Enosetc2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Axis the Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=imsknG3A,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2015-08-20T07:20:32.248+0000)

At least FoN is gone, so it won't be the full metagolem amirite

item 3512

SOON.

Axis the Dragon1 votes

Honestly though what would be the new metagolem?

item 3111 item 3083 item 3022 item 3512 item 3078 - plus Titanic Hydra ? xD

Enosetc2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Axis the Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=imsknG3A,comment-id=000100000000000100000000,timestamp=2015-08-20T07:36:33.806+0000)

Honestly though what would be the new metagolem?

item 3111 item 3083 item 3022 item 3512 item 3078 - plus Titanic Hydra ? xD

what if instead of mallet we used item 3742

i like the permaslow on mallet, but it's just such a bad item atm ughh

Axis the Dragon1 votes

It just ain't Metagolem without Mallet though D:

I mean, it's not the same without FoN either, but at least Mallet still exists, yeah?

Auryiel1 votes

omfg pls no

Not metagolem no I can't handle that

Miraweave1 votes

{quoted}

It's not going to be that big of a deal, in regards to RGs passive. By the time you finish RG, after you've already finished your jungle item and tier 2 boots as most junglers will in conjunction with completing RG, sustain in the jungle won't even be an issue anymore as you won't be spending as much time clearing it and you'll still have decent regen.

As for titanic hydra, I literally don't know. I'm speculating on a lot of the bruiser item changes and I think they'll all be good. But how good? Not a clue.

I think they're going to have to nerf Titanic pretty signifigantly. Like, the active has a 10% total health ratio, which is utterly absurd.

I get that they want bruisers to be strong, but when bruisers can kill squishies in under three seconds with only one damage item, there's a problem, and that's what is going to happen.

redniwediS4 votes

I really want to downvote, since I downvote every thread that makes assumptions about the opinions of it's readers... but I just can't...

Guess that every is now an almost every. Well written.

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

I really want to downvote, since I downvote every thread that makes assumptions about the opinions of it's readers... but I just can't...

Guess that every is now an almost every. Well written.

He wrote a lot,but most of it is nonsense.

Tank junglers aren't always strong in solo q,that's BS,wombo-combo(or heavy aoe) is,so yeah,thats amumu,and that's sej.

But oh wait,sej,even with her high solo-q compability,doesn't even cross the 50% winrate even before this patch,and answer the op as to why people stopped play her,well,that's cause she sucks,yes she brings aoe cc,but with her damage nerfs she lost jungle pressure early on and can no longer compete.

Tank supports are a different entity and shouldn't be brought up,I definitely agree that they aren't going anywhere though. Top tanks will probably suffer,but maybe if deadmans proves op(haven't gotten used to it yet) it might make up for some things,but even so you'll probably see them a lot less.

As to tanks dealing too much damage while being unkillable,I agree it was stupid,and the reason for this is because their damage was buffed(naut,seju being obvious examples) but the problem was their competition(carry junglers) was such a bunch of idiotic nonsense they had to become stupid themselves to compete,take that stupidity away only from tanks,and carry junglers will dominate again.

As to the whole little gold compared to solo q,you can say that for all junglers in general,and actually carries tend to scale harder than tanks with larger amounts of gold.

HateDaddy5 votes

{quoted}

He wrote a lot,but most of it is nonsense.

Tank junglers aren't always strong in solo q,that's BS,wombo-combo(or heavy aoe) is,so yeah,thats amumu,and that's sej.

yeah they have been.

But oh wait,sej,even with her high solo-q compability,doesn't even cross the 50% winrate even before this patch,and answer the op as to why people stopped play her,well,that's cause she sucks,yes she brings aoe cc,but with her damage nerfs she lost jungle pressure early on and can no longer compete.

Sej is still strong, she's sitting right at a 50% winrate right now, so I'm not sure what your point is. Nautilus functions well as a tank jungler, as does Gragas, as does Amumu. Tank junglers are strong now and will continue to be strong.

Tank supports are a different entity and shouldn't be brought up,I definitely agree that they aren't going anywhere though. Top tanks will probably suffer,but maybe if deadmans proves op(haven't gotten used to it yet) it might make up for some things,but even so you'll probably see them a lot less.

You'll see bruisers, you'll see tanks. It'll be a mixture. Tanks can usually do fine vs bruisers, the question comes down to scaling.

As to tanks dealing too much damage while being unkillable,I agree it was stupid,and the reason for this is because their damage was buffed(naut,seju being obvious examples) but the problem was their competition(carry junglers) was such a bunch of idiotic nonsense they had to become stupid themselves to compete,take that stupidity away only from tanks,and carry junglers will dominate again.

Most carry junglers were also nerfed into absolute shit tier, too, which is why you're seeing some of them get buffed back up. For something you considered mostly non-sense, you've agreed with the majority of my points in this post.

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

she's sitting right at a 50% winrate right now, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Somehow people can understand that someone like azir can sit on 46% winrate and still be strong,yet the concept of someone sitting on 50% being weak is beyond them,why? Hell,the notion that amumu is strong is highly debatable.

See their winrate comes from a bunch of things,the biggest factor being easy to play+relying on your opponents to play stupid and not to adapt,and even with that sejuani is sitting on 50%.

Now why would a person who is a good jungler pick sejuani if these are her strengths? the person is already a good jungler,so her being easy isn't a factor,why rely on his opponent being bad when he can pick something like reksai which is strong even against strong opponents?

The winrate argument is shit,if you go by it then you just pick the highest winrate champion and there's no room for anything else,while champions being simpler might be a reason for bad junglers to pick them up,that doesn't give a reason for experienced junglers to do so,and these are the guys we want to balance jungle around.

Nautilus functions well as a tank jungler, as does Gragas, as does Amumu. Tank junglers are strong now and will continue to be strong.

Hm,I wonder why you use gragas with his 46.5% winrate,oh wait,cause he is actually is strong in capable hands,I love these hopping around winrate depending on how convenient it is.

No,naut isn't strong,naut is simple,so he can maintain a decent winrate,but there's no reason for an experienced jungler to pick him.

Amumu is the only one who you actually can debate over,as his winrate is impressive,enough to start an argument of how much of it is him relying on stupidity and having a lower skill floor.

But overall,no,tank junglers are already doing poorly and it is reflected in their pickrates,this patch will make them go from bad to worse.

You'll see bruisers, you'll see tanks. It'll be a mixture. Tanks can usually do fine vs bruisers, the question comes down to scaling.

In top lane? maybe,even so my first guess is that they will be seen less. Maybe grag jungle will survive in competitive,I'm not sure,all other tank junglers you will see less than you see now.

Most carry junglers were also nerfed into absolute shit tier,

They were slightly nerfed,yes,into shit tier? hell no.

too, which is why you're seeing some of them get buffed back up.

Great,the most oppressive role buffed up,who wants variety anyway?

For something you considered mostly non-sense, you've agreed with the majority of my points in this post.

only the worthless trivialities,and had my quarrel with these as well(I see support tanks as completely seperate from other tanks,even if I agreed they aren't going anywhere). Tank jungler being stronger in solo Q I called out as false. Tank junglers needing more gold,again,called out false. Tank damage/tankiness being BS,agreed with it,but you forgot the very important part where carry junglers are BS as well,and tank junglers needed this to compete.

So yeah,mostly agreed with nothing,had major issues with what I did agree with you over.

Only Play Darius4 votes

Well spoken. Still, as a Nasus main, I am pissed about the nerfs to item 3110.

Then again, Nasus struggles against AP tops, so I guess the MR buffs might compensate.

HateDaddy4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=imsknG3A,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-08-20T04:29:46.317+0000)

Well spoken. Still, as a Nasus main, I am pissed about the nerfs to item 3110.

Then again, Nasus struggles against AP tops, so I guess the MR buffs might compensate.

Trust me, as a fellow Nasus main, it won't be felt hard. And Deadman's Plate...is a godsend to Nasus

Silents4291 votes

He just got the range on his Q buffed though.

7ha7guy7773 votes

Is it just me, or does it seem like the new items (sterak's, titanic, DMP) could be crazy on voli?

HateDaddy9 votes

{quoted}

Is it just me, or does it seem like the new items (sterak's, titanic, DMP) could be crazy on voli?

Oh yeah, they're great on bruisers and tanks alike and Voli is very hybrid in that regard. Now the question becomes, will this fix Volis problems as a champion? He's kitable and his engage is unreliable or done better by others. Time will tell.

Kuroi865 votes

item 3742 item 3800 0.0

Rinky Dinky1 votes

I think it will let him do his job better, allowing him to actually be worth picking over others in some situations.

New Hydra is sp00ky

7ha7guy7771 votes

I just tried Sterak'sitem 3078Titanic item 3742 item 3083 item 3172 on voli in a custom... 2.0 attack speed titanic hydra procs are scary with 4400 hp. I'm sure in a real game it would be harder to reach that build. For some reason, the bonus base AD wasn't showing up unless you moused over the AD stat

Silents4293 votes

Asking to much of the boards, it's easier to scream at Riot and sit around the fire telling everyone else how bad the game is.

One of the reds even said that with item 3110 taken down a notch it allows them to add new armor items in the game since it won't overshadow every other one.

Sniper 02 votes

The only problem I foresee with the armor rework is that ad assassins may come back in force but other than that it shouldn't be that much of an issue.

The only thing I have an issue with this patch is the change to cinderhulk... lol

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

The only problem I foresee with the armor rework is that ad assassins may come back in force but other than that it shouldn't be that much of an issue.

The only thing I have an issue with this patch is the change to cinderhulk... lol

I don't think so, keep in mind again, that this is speculation

AD assassins weren't bad because armor was good. Armor has been good for a very long time, even during times when Zed/Talon dominated mid lane and Lee/kha dominated the jungle. I do think Lee and Kha will see more play, bear in mind though that bruisers absolutely maul assassins. So how much more powerful are they going to be? Tanks were effective against them for that matter, too.

What made AD assassins good in mid lane was a combination of nerfs to several different mages (remember all the nerfs to Ziggs, etc) and generally being overtuned a bit. Mid is dominated right now by really safe wave clearers and Ahri, who is good vs most AD assassins. And those ad assassins aren't getting mega buffs, so I don't suspect we will be seeing mid lane be the showdown lane for Zed v Talon 2.0.

JedenVojak2 votes

{quoted}

Now, I realize armor items overall received a nerf in value and in cost effeciency. However, there's more variety in armor itemization that excels at different things. Deadmans plate will be god-tier on anything looking to hard engage, tanks and figjters alike. Randuins will help vs crit stacking carries. Sunfire will probably resurface as a premier item in top lane. Frozen Heart is still ridiculously good. MR also just got buffed, which helps top lane tanks mostly. Locket is still good for supports.

What this means is that the items are no longer always useful, but only sometimes useful. Wooo! Sign me up for that!

But here's the thing, true tanks are still innately ridiculously durable, these changes won't push them out of the game. And that hasn't changed, nor will it. And that's why riot gave buffs to different tanks armor that don't typically acquire a lot of gold, just to make sure they didn't overdo it on the armor changes, and I don't think they did.

If the tanks are taking more than 1 damage per auto attack, they're not really tanky enough.

In reality, the only things that have changed are the strength of tank junglers (and this is mostly a competitive thing) and I'll get to that, and eliminating tanks like Maokai, Gragas and nautilus from soloing carries while being unkillable.

That sounds really bad. Carries (well, ranged carries) in general spend to much time with colors on their screen - they're really much better served with a black and white backdrop for the game.

Now, as for jungle tanks. Here's the deal fellas, in competitive league of legends, tanks in the jungle have never really been balanced. They're either so obnoxiously overtuned directly or through itemixation that they're completely overpowered with just 2-3 items alone (because in competitive play, the jungle role is especially starved on income). This is the only way they see competitive play, otherwise they're just not considered good. That's still a big problem and riot has been actively trying to figure that out for the last 2 years. I don't know the answer to it either, to be honest.

The answer is jungle tanks should be really strong, and then everyone wins. It's science.

Also, competitive balance should never be considered for the game balance of the game because they make up less than 1% of the overall player base.

I honestly don't even care anymore at this point, your post just seemed too positive and I thought you needed to be brooked more guff.

GUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUFFFFFFFFFFFF!

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

What this means is that the items are no longer always useful, but only sometimes useful. Wooo! Sign me up for that!

No, it means you have variety. Frozen heart is still going to be purchased majority of the time and it's always effective. Now you decide what you want next? Deadmans plate is good for diving, Randuins will be good against crit based ADCS like Jinx and even Sivir, thornmail will be a good third choice after 1 of the 2. And if you're a tank like a maokai, malphite, shen, etc with defensive steroids, you're already hard as hell to kill.

If the tanks are taking more than 1 damage per auto attack, they're not really tanky enough.

uh?

That sounds really bad. Carries (well, ranged carries) in general spend to much time with colors on their screen - they're really much better served with a black and white backdrop for the game.

ok

The answer is jungle tanks should be really strong, and then everyone wins. It's science.

and they are, just not competitively given the nature of competitive play. Competitive play starves their junglers pretty hard, which is why they pick champions who scale well with little gold (like a Gragas).

Also, competitive balance should never be considered for the game balance of the game because they make up less than 1% of the overall player base.

The game should be balanced around the highest level of play to preserve the quality of the game as best as possible. Honestly, I take your replies more as a joke than anything, I'm just not sure what else to say lol.

I honestly don't even care anymore at this point, your post just seemed too positive and I thought you needed to be brooked more guff.

GUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUFFFFFFFFFFFF!

Uh, I'm a Nasus main?

JedenVojak1 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, I take your replies more as a joke than anything, I'm just not sure what else to say lol.

You can say, " You really are amazing, I can't imagine why I would hold any other viewpoint, your Majesty."

Sorry, I'm just a little drunk right now. But you don't seem hateful enough for a guy named Hate Daddy, and that's really quite unsettling.

The only real concern I have, is that it will my "1 defensive item buy" for a fighty champion not really good enough.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Hate Daddy

YOU PUT A SPACE IN BETWEEN MY NAME

HHHHHHHHHHNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG

Axis the Dragon1 votes

HATE

DADDY


HOW ABOUT AN ENTIRE LINE BREAK HUH

WATCHU GON' DO ABOUT THAT

NeX Daark1 votes

{quoted}

No, it means you have variety. Frozen heart is still going to be purchased majority of the time and it's always effective. Now you decide what you want next? Deadmans plate is good for diving, Randuins will be good against crit based ADCS like Jinx and even Sivir, thornmail will be a good third choice after 1 of the 2. And if you're a tank like a maokai, malphite, shen, etc with defensive steroids, you're already hard as hell to kill.

and they are, just not competitively given the nature of competitive play. Competitive play starves their junglers pretty hard, which is why they pick champions who scale well with little gold (like a Gragas).

The game should be balanced around the highest level of play to preserve the quality of the game as best as possible. Honestly, I take your replies more as a joke than anything, I'm just not sure what else to say lol.

Balancing around professional play makes solo queue worse. The level of coordination and teamwork alone make professional play a completely different game. That doesn't even factor in strategy changes like double jungle, lane switches, lvl 2 dragons, and pre-5 minute tower dives that are nowhere near viable for 99.999999% of the player base.

Tanks being able to solo adcs is unhealthy? Let's forget that as a solo laner that top lane Maokai is probably 2-3 levels higher than Sivir and go back to the good old days when tanks died before they could get in melee range.

I love watching Vayne kill 5 people with 11 autos and watching Zed ult into 4 people, press R, kill someone and get out for free. Good times.

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=NeX Daark,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=imsknG3A,comment-id=000900000001,timestamp=2015-08-20T07:51:06.340+0000)

Balancing around professional play makes solo queue worse. The level of coordination and teamwork alone make professional play a completely different game. That doesn't even factor in strategy changes like double jungle, lane switches, lvl 2 dragons, and pre-5 minute tower dives that are nowhere near viable for 99.999999% of the player base.

No, it doesn't. It makes solo queue better because the entire meta trickles down from professional play to begin with. Sure, competitive is a different style and that style isn't achieved in solo queue obviously but the gameplay, style of game, meta and the whole 9 yards trickle down from competitive to begin with. You balance around the highest level of play, you balance the game at the highest of quality.

Tanks being able to solo adcs is unhealthy? Let's forget that as a solo laner that top lane Maokai is probably 2-3 levels higher than Sivir and go back to the good old days when tanks died before they could get in melee range.

Tanks like Maokai late game soloing carries while you're unable to kill him isn't healthy gameplay, same with pre-nerf Sej, anything that went challenging smite + full tank. That's not healthy gameplay, that's not what tanks are designed to do OR should be doing. Their job is to disrupt, soak damage and initiate, not solo backlines because they abuse base damages while being unkillable.

I love watching Vayne kill 5 people with 11 autos and watching Zed ult into 4 people, press R, kill someone and get out for free. Good times.

Vayne wouldn't kill 5 people with 11 autos, Vayne is also susceptible to dive because of her short range. I won't argue she's bullshit though, and I agree I want her nerfed in the worst way possible. But Vayne IS an ADC and a tankbuster at that, it's what she's designed to do. But this isn't about Vayne. And in that same sentence, Zed doesn't just R in, R out and kill carries if the enemy team has half a brain. That only happens in the most extreme cases of when a Zed is fed. I know the people on this board have an irrational hate for Zed because they don't actually understand his gameplay, how easily countered he is by itemization and that he's actually not very good at the moment, but it's not that simple. It never was.

NeX Daark1 votes

{quoted}

No, it doesn't. It makes solo queue better because the entire meta trickles down from professional play to begin with. Sure, competitive is a different style and that style isn't achieved in solo queue obviously but the gameplay, style of game, meta and the whole 9 yards trickle down from competitive to begin with. You balance around the highest level of play, you balance the game at the highest of quality.

3/4 of the professional meta does not transition down past diamond. Champion pool and itemization trickling down is most of what we see. The rest can't be pulled off with 5 people that have never spoken to each other and half the team is playing their third or fourth best roles.

Balancing around the top has been tried in nearly every video game. The only thing those video games have in common is that none of them end up very balanced.

Tanks like Maokai late game soloing carries while you're unable to kill him isn't healthy gameplay, same with pre-nerf Sej, anything that went challenging smite + full tank. That's not healthy gameplay, that's not what tanks are designed to do OR should be doing. Their job is to disrupt, soak damage and initiate, not solo backlines because they abuse base damages while being unkillable.

I don't understand the mindset. If a level 18 item Maokai out plays an enemy team I don't have a problem with him being able to kill a lvl 16 Vayne. Autolocking an adc should not give you free reign to ruin everyone.

Vayne wouldn't kill 5 people with 11 autos, Vayne is also susceptible to dive because of her short range. I won't argue she's bullshit though, and I agree I want her nerfed in the worst way possible. But Vayne IS an ADC and a tankbuster at that, it's what she's designed to do. But this isn't about Vayne. And in that same sentence, Zed doesn't just R in, R out and kill carries if the enemy team has half a brain. That only happens in the most extreme cases of when a Zed is fed. I know the people on this board have an irrational hate for Zed because they don't actually understand his gameplay, how easily countered he is by itemization and that he's actually not very good at the moment, but it's not that simple. It never was.

Again how does that make sense? Vayne being a tank buster and 2 shotting anyone with less than 200 armor, and 4 shotting people with 260+ is balanced because that is what she is designed to do but Maokai and Sejuani living for more than 6 seconds is horrible?

Noctius282 votes

The reason tanks will die in my opinion isn't so much the item changes It's the fact that most of the new stuff gives more health and now every single game will have at least 1 LeeSin That will ruin the game for everyone else WHY? well he is more noob friendly now then Garen He has more damage on R than anyone doing full damage (and he can build whatever cuz he uses the enemy stats for the damage) He is and always has been a meta changing champion, so his buff + more health in frontliners = all frontliners being used as bullets that kill the rest of their own team in all the games from now on

IceKingChernobog1 votes

dont forget Vayne be there

JedenVojak1 votes

I have tried him out, and I can safely say he is not noob friendly in the slightest.

Rinky Dinky2 votes

Thank fuck

Someone trying to reason with these boards.

And Hate Daddy non the less!

Ahri Love2 votes

Honestly go play a game - Tanks are pretty op now imo. This patch didnt hurt them in the slightest

Smitty Manjensen1 votes

How you gonna bash on G&B now on General Discussion as you're part of it now?

Blue Moon Wolf1 votes

Although I didn't like the armor items getting nerfed, I thought the Champ armor buffs were nice for at least some kind of compensation. doesn't help every champ affected by the armor Item nerfs, but still a step in good direction. Though I'm most pleased with the new items they added, can't wait to try them out and see which champ are best to replace item 3074 for Titanic Hydra.

Paress1 votes

Mastery + Tabi + Randuin = 30% less damage taken from Tryndamere Yasuo Ashe , not even counting armor.

Bye :/

g07h4xf001 votes

{quoted}

Let's start off with this: tanks have been good for a long time. When was the last time Maokai top wasn't a tier 1 top laner? Mid-season 4?

Maokai will always be good because of his kit (unless they keep nerfing it) regardless of what tank items are good. The reason is because he gets 20% damage reduction on his ultimate that can also apply to his team. Same argument with Alistar. If you recall from Worlds last year, the top lane meta was essentially Ryze Kassadin Nidalee Lulu since the "mega tanks" were always perma-banned.

Mundo? He's always off and on, never a bad pick (not so much for solo queue, but we will get to that).

When was the last time he was picked in a pro game? His non-pro win rate is abysmal.

Sion? Still off and on, was tier 1 by far for a long time.

If by "long time" you mean "3 patches", then sure. Now he's mediocre and sees no pro play.

I would still consider him tier 2. Shen is back. Gragas is still God tier. Braumstache is back in full swing. Nautilus top is still tier 1 and will continue to be, tier 2 in support alongside champions like Leona. I have no idea why people stopped playing Sej, she's still very good. Do I need to even explain Alistar atm?

The patch has been out for 10 hours. You can't possible know who is top/god tier and who is not, at the moment.

I'm telling you this now: none of this is going to change next patch. Figjters were buffed, but fighters will now actually function as fighters - not champions that stack resists and abuse base damages, something that has often pushed tanks out of the meta in top lane entirely (See Renekton/Trundle/Shyv in s3/early s4). Tanks will be good in accompany with bruisers (support tanks especially) and traditional tank tops will be reliable counterrpicks to shut them down, in fact i suspect tanks will thrive at this.

This is absolutely false. Here's why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3_i1TZSDGs

Now, I realize armor items overall received a nerf in value and in cost effeciency. However, there's more variety in armor itemization that excels at different things.

The only "variety" is the fact that you have ONE MORE armor item to choose from. And arguably, item 3742 came out in 5.15 so you don't have anymore variety from 5.16.

Deadmans plate will be god-tier on anything looking to hard engage, tanks and figjters alike. Randuins will help vs crit stacking carries. Sunfire will probably resurface as a premier item in top lane.

Nerf item 3800 out of the game and introduce item 3742. You have less engage power and more selfish stats. From one hand giveth, the other taketh away.

Frozen Heart is still ridiculously good.

And yet its stats are suspiciously similar to how they were in season 2/3 when NOBODY ever bought it.

MR also just got buffed, which helps top lane tanks mostly. Locket is still good for supports.

MR was not buffed if you take into account the fact that item 3105 got nerfed. You get 5 more MR from individual MR items but 5 less MR from item 3105. Overall, you just got a 50g reduction. That's it.

But here's the thing, true tanks are still innately ridiculously durable, these changes won't push them out of the game.

Yes they will, and they will be replaced by Bruisers for reasons noted in the above YouTube video I linked.

eliminating tanks like Maokai, Gragas and nautilus from soloing carries while being unkillable.

So nerf their damage, not their tankyness. Oh wait, they nerfed both (item 3075 item 3143)

That was an unhealthy style of play and it blurred the line between tanks and bruisers/fighters.

Again, you are saying their damage is the problem so NERF THE DAMAGE FROM THEIR KITS. Don't fucking nerf their survivability. The amount of stupidity in your argument is unreal.

turning tanks into what they're supposed to be: disrupters, damage soakers and initiators, not champions that dive back lines and solo carries until those carries have 5-6 items to actually kill them.

YOU LITERALLY CONTRADICTED YOURSELF HERE. You're saying "tanks should be good at soaking damage and initiating" and then you IMMEDIATELY SAY they should not be diving back lines and requiring carries to have more damage to kill them.

So long story short folks, tanks are still going to be good. Bruisers will be back and I suspect this patch could see the most balanced diversity we've had in a very long time.

LMAO ARE YOU KIDDING ME. You must be new to this game if you think this for a SECOND. Could you remind yourself of the last time tank items were nerfed in this magnitude? Go read the patch notes before Worlds last year and then go watch Worlds last year. You're a fucking idiot who clearly doesn't understand this game.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Maokai will always be good because of his kit (unless they keep nerfing it) regardless of what tank items are good. The reason is because he gets 20% damage reduction on his ultimate that can also apply to his team. Same argument with Alistar. If you recall from Worlds last year, the top lane meta was essentially Ryze Kassadin Nidalee Lulu since the "mega tanks" were always perma-banned.

Yes, and that's true for most tanks because they have innate forms of durability which is usually one of the defining features of a true tank. And at last years worlds, Ryze was extremely overpowered, it's what he was nerfed. But at the same time, Maokai top was still good, mundo top was still good. Alistar was being built trinity into full tank or sometimes even AP, but he was still incredibly tanky. They also removed his ability to solo lane entirely (not a single thing was lost this day) when they removed his AA/W combo. Tanks were still good in top lane season 4, just not at worlds as much because riot typically goes through this obsession where they buff Ryze right before worlds to ruin top lane makns experiences in the game.

When was the last time he was picked in a pro game? His non-pro win rate is abysmal.

Perception vs reality here, mundo is basically old Shen - never a bad pick, probably just outclassed (Gnar). He's safe, farms well, tanks well etc. He also hasn't had a good winrate in solo queue since s2 since they killed his ability to jungle. I wouldn't mind mundo jungle buffs.

If by "long time" you mean "3 patches", then sure. Now he's mediocre and sees no pro play.

I literally just got done watching a few lck and LPL games where Sion top was picked, so there's that.

The patch has been out for 10 hours. You can't possible know who is top/god tier and who is not, at the moment.

I said it was speculation for that very reason. But I see no reason why tanks will suddenly be bad.

This is absolutely false. Here's why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3_i1TZSDGs

Stonewall video, not watching because he's historically been extremely bias for tanks.

EDIT: ROFL that video is from February, before tanks were literally the most broken class in the game for 2-3 patches. Prior to this, he wasn't wrong, but his bias that "bruisers outclass" tanks was incorrect given half of season 4 before worlds was Mundo/Maokai top every game and bruisers were dead. So that video is outdated, the good points he did make in it were addressed and he even has the same philosophy of what a true tank as that I have: disruptors, damage soakers and innate durability that don't bring the power in damage to solo kill back line champions. They weren't doing that with base damages or high base damages, they were doing it with extremely powerful tank itemization combined with their already extremely powerful innate durability and simply outlasting entire teams as they whittled a carry down to nothing.

The only "variety" is the fact that you have ONE MORE armor item to choose from. And arguably, item 3742 came out in 5.15 so you don't have anymore variety from 5.16.

Yes, this was still buff to armor overall. Once again, the armor nerfs barely hurt true tanks because they've already got innate defensive mechanics such as %dmg reduction or flat and/or %resists increases. These armor nerfs were to scale them down a little bit because tanks have been incredibly powerful for the last few patches and this likely doesn't hurt them much. This will also likely discourage fighters that traditionally build more defenses to just spam tank items and abuse bases, something that is always a potential abuse case and I'm saying that as a fighter main.

Nerf item 3800 out of the game and introduce item 3742. You have less engage power and more selfish stats. From one hand giveth, the other taketh away.

I'm with you here believe it or not, this is one of the few items I think was way overnerfed. I wouldn't be surprised to see it buffed again soon.

And yet its stats are suspiciously similar to how they were in season 2/3 when NOBODY ever bought it.

Frozen heart was good on season 2. Maokai jungle built it, perma ban Malphite built it, Taric built it. Randuins in s2 was just a lot better overall, not to mention the meta of s2 rarely featured many AS heavy carries (Corki/graves/Ez). It was the last season where fighters consistently dominated, which is why Randuins was more common and it built from hog, so it was a gold income item too. FH was good the. It will still be good now.

MR was not buffed if you take into account the fact that item 3105 got nerfed. You get 5 more MR from individual MR items but 5 less MR from item 3105. Overall, you just got a 50g reduction. That's it.

Banshees and spirit visage + cowl got buffed, which is still a buff to solo lane tanks who build these items and once again, true tanks aren't hurt by it much because of innate defensive steroids like Leona, Braum etc.

Yes they will, and they will be replaced by Bruisers for reasons noted in the above YouTube video I linked.

Maybe they will be for a short time because there's a good chance the new bruiser items could be way overtuned and that'll get adjusted. Tanks will still be meta in bot lane and top lane won't have Maokai being mandatory. We just had 4 patches in a row of heavy tanky comps until runeglaive was a thing, we could stand for a little diversity.

So nerf their damage, not their tankyness. Oh wait, they nerfed both (item 3075 item 3143)

Once again, true tanks aren't going to feel these nerfs because it's small reduction in values when they're already innately absurdly durable. Their damage wasn't the problem, it was their durability in conjunction with extremely cost efficient items that was.

Again, you are saying their damage is the problem so NERF THE DAMAGE FROM THEIR KITS. Don't fucking nerf their survivability. The amount of stupidity in your argument is unreal.

See above, keep trying to insult me though, you're flattering me.

YOU LITERALLY CONTRADICTED YOURSELF HERE. You're saying "tanks should be good at soaking damage and initiating" and then you IMMEDIATELY SAY they should not be diving back lines and requiring carries to have more damage to kill them.

Diving and soloing carries and initiating aren't the same thing.

LMAO ARE YOU KIDDING ME. You must be new to this game if you think this for a SECOND. Could you remind yourself of the last time tank items were nerfed in this magnitude? Go read the patch notes before Worlds last year and then go watch Worlds last year. You're a fucking idiot who clearly doesn't understand this game.

I'm diamond, have been diamond elo for almost two years and I'd like to think I have an incredibly unbias point of view (as best as possible). I play some tanks too, I get the frustration but armor itemization is not what made or broke true tanks, they're going to be fine. Tanks were also buffed in compensation for some of these nerfs as well, so please continue to ignore that. There's also a nerf for Maokai on the PBE on his ults cooldown, I don't think it's necessary and I hope it's reverted.

I want diversity, and we have been slowly getting that over the last few patches. Prior to that it was mega tank comps, prior to that it was Lee sin/Vi/RekSai and tank tops, prior to that it was Ryze v3, prior to that it was mundo vs Maokai, prior to that it was Renekton/Shyv/Trundle/Nasus/Zac/Shen/Vlad top from season 3 carrying over to season 4. Then it was Ryze 2.0 and ranged too CANCER mid s3 and the rest is history. This is the most diversity we could potentially be seeing from both top lane and jungle in a very long time, potentially ever (excluding the first two seasons at this point because it was a different game). Having the game be mega tank comps isn't balanced, or fun to play in. Having the meta be Lee/Vi every game isn't fun to play in. In reality we went from one extreme to the other and over the last two patches, that somewhat happened with overtuned runeglaive. But it looks like we are seeing more diversity and that's a good thing for this game.

I know you don't like that because you're an incredibly bias tank main who thinks the game should have 3 unkillable tanks every game and that's what balance is but it isn't, you're wrong. You can throw around misinformation all you want, bias and extremely inaccurate depictions as you please, insult me, whatever, it doesn't change the fact that tanks, true tanks at their core, have never been reliant on itemization, it's been from the core makeup of their kits and we've seen tanks in top lane come and go a ton since s3. We've seen the same in the support role as well since s3, we saw it some in the jungle and I admit that's a hard one to figure because historically jungle tanks have been a nightmare to balance, and don't take my word for it, just look at history and it speaks for itself. Whenever jungle tanks have been good, they've been hilariously overpowered and no in between. When they've been bad, welp they were fucking bad.

So once again, now that I've gotten past this novel I've just written, tanks are fine. And show some faith, in the event I'm wrong - which is something I have no problem admitting I always could be and would own up to if I was - riot has been proactively buffing anything perceived weak in the last year and a half moreso than I've ever seen them do. So in the event I am wrong and tanks are absolute garbage now, riot will jump on board and work hard at figuring it out.

GI Jho1 votes

This thread has improved my faith in this community.

T RexHasTinyArms1 votes

What do you think would be the impact if you removed the scaling health entirely from cinderhulk and normalized the passive damage to match sunfire? It becomes a "build a little damage, then go full tank item" and could even be balanced with increase/decrease to health, or maybe even a small amount of MPen. MPen might be to much though, but it would make for an interesting damage semi tank w/ cinder, abyssal, and then pure tank or maybe even liandry's or rylai's to build HP and more damage, but you'd have very few resists so would only be semi tanky.

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