There IS gameplay to auras and buffs/debuffs. LOL has rarely seen the counterplays

Moody P··23 votes·10,531 views

TL;DR people were tricked about these things having "no counterplay" simply because the counterplay was never implemented. These mechanics would/could add a lot of value to champions who need it without making them more effective against everyone like current LOL balance is basically forced to do.

I'd like to argue the case as to why these things are good and why they're done wrong in LOL. I'll try to keep it brief because I want to start condensing my points a little better. I'll start with the topics, and then their counters, using DOTA as my frame of reference because the only other MOBA I play is 2D.

  • **Auras ** create passive zones around a champion or object that empower allies around it. This can be anything, really; it can be buffs, which we already have in J4's flag synergizing well with attack speed allies; and Taric and Sona used to be potent aura champions. It doesn't need to be entirely passive, either; some auras activate on a condition. They can be temporary or permanent, etc.

Why Auras are good: Auras give champions strong reasons to be picked either as a soft-counter or synergy with enemies/allies respectively. Because they are less "engaged" in mechanical terms auras usually serve niche purposes, like lowering enemy AD or attack speed around you, raising magic resist (old locket), giving allies offensive steroids, or even doing DoT damage passively.

What's their counter? Dota2 has a mechanic called Break, which disables all heroes passives for the duration it's applied. This, again, gives heroes valuable strategy as a counter to heroes who depend heavily on boosting themselves or their team through their passives. There are added caveats to this in regard to stacking champs, but that's a lot more writing than I want to do.

  • Buffs and Debuffs are just positive or negative status effects. We actually have quite a lot of these but they're generally generic; slows would be considered a debuff, anything stronger than a slow is considered a disable. Niche things like AS slows, AD reduction, and so on are quite rare. But we also have a lot of buffs, particularly from enchanters when it comes to giving them to teammates; pretty much every enchanter has either an on-hit, AD, or AS steroid to give to an ally, and then Ardent Censer is much the same way. Partially related, Dota2 is far more generous with buffs and debuffs; a ton of carries and tanks have both passive and active buffs for teammates that give themselves immense value to their teammates beyond their damage output, and while supports have those things, too, it's not nearly as much the focus of their kit as it is in LOL.

What's their counter? Dispels. We actually have a couple of dispels/immunity effects in LoL already, but they only apply to debuffs set upon themselves. Garen's Q dispels slows, Yi's R makes him immune, Olaf R dispels everything including disables and so do GP oranges. We do not, however, have a champion that can remove debuffs for other allies, or strip buffs from enemies. This would be fantastic means of allowing champions to add strong countering to steroid-based enemies (a much-needed counterplay to marksmen that isn't "burst them in half a second." Of course, not all of these things can be dispelled and it's usually a case-by-case basis; most ultimate buffs, for example, cannot be dispelled, or can be dispelled until that opponent buys an Aghanim's.

If we had champions capable of utilizing dispels in more varied ways, I don't think the Ardent meta would ever have been a problem.

These mechanics don't need to be used excessively, of course, but they'd at least make for a nice few add-ons to existing or new kits and a refreshing change of pace. A tank bring a strong buff/debuff could have an ability that isn't adding even more hard CC to their kit; we could have an enchanter designed to wreck steroid-abusing Tristanas, you know, lots of possibilities with it to help elevate LoL's gameplay especially for the classes that need it. It gives you more balancing levers in the strategic sense, and I think we really can't have enough of those.

I'm aware some people don't like this philosophy. But personally I'm very much in favor of champion select and the drafting process being a significant part of the game, more so than it is at least for soloQ purposes, and stuff like this really appeals to me which is why I've been wiggling more DOTA into my very limited schedule lately. Could just be LOL burnout, though.

28 Comments

The Ecdysiast6 votes

Of course you're a proponent of champion select deciding matches. You play a champion whose performance is decided not by skill, but by pick order.

Moody P8 votes

Pick order doesn't get anyone to Diamond, but I appreciate your attempt at misdirecting the topic.

The Ecdysiast8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iltRO6mz,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-01-20T00:25:55.293+0000)

Pick order doesn't get anyone to Diamond, but I appreciate your attempt at misdirecting the topic.

Evidently it does.

People always like to default to, "it's not my champion that's overpowered, it's just that I'm better than everyone."

Moody P6 votes

[deleted]

The Ecdysiast4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iltRO6mz,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-20T01:01:20.273+0000)

<Removed>

Weird how you're not, then, right?

Glaricion5 votes

The League community's obsession with 'counterplay' confuses me. Breaks, mutes, etc... are all really cool mechanics in Dota, but would be hard to retroactively fit into LoL.

I would think that the 'counterplay' of auras would be the power budget of the item and how they inherently get even weaker than they already have to be when it is effecting less and less people.

offensive - Abyssal scepter had a low range of effect to encourage riskier play, and since its effect was in an aoe for the whole team to enjoy its effects were much weaker than its sibling Void Staff.

defensive - Old aegis was a fantastic team item, but it also suffered from its value being rather useless on an individual basis. The target would likely either be so squishy that they could be merced, or on a tankier champ it would usually be at the expense of a more offensive item, thus gimping the characters they were put on themselves. New Solari is a pretty neato take on the concept though.

Moody P3 votes

The community generally is confused on what they want; they really like to tell you how much they miss strategy but if you bring up any of the old strategic things they'll generally tell you it's a toxic stat-check; give them strategic things that appeal to their mechanical desires and they'll tell you it's unfair (Wind Wall, Shroud).

It's not a good idea to try arguing with them about it; I've found just stating your point concisely gets you good results.

oortoomeebreesuu1 votes

At the risk of proving you right... wind wall is strategic or appealing?

Moody P1 votes

Yes. Wind Wall is strategic because its value is specific (only defends against projectiles) and greatly defines his matchups; its power is a very big factor in how he wins fights. Yasuo's major strength is being a strong answer primarily to ranged champions who heavily rely on key projectiles - Miss Fortune R, all but a few burst mages, etc. At the same time it does very little for him against other melees, and that significant defense being very weakened means he tends to lose quite hard when it comes to 1v1ing other melee carries. Wind Wall keeps Yasuo from having a generalist design because its inclusion makes it very easy for Riot to tune him around countering ranged champs while struggling vs other melee DPS.

oortoomeebreesuu1 votes

I wouldn't say that his W defines his match ups at all. It's easy to claim "he's down a whole skill, how is that not a deficit" but really, Yasuo's defining feature is maneuvering. He out ranges other melee, and he closes the gap on any ranged no matter how far flung or mobile. Syndra and Xerath don't magically beat Yasuo just because his W doesn't stop their Q. If that were the case, you could say wind wall defines his match ups, but it's the fact that with Q spacing and E reaction, you can manipulate almost every match up safely from start to finish once you're good enough.

Horse Grenades1 votes

{quoted}

The League community's obsession with 'counterplay' confuses me. Breaks, mutes, etc... are all really cool mechanics in Dota, but would be hard to retroactively fit into LoL.

I would think that the 'counterplay' of auras would be the power budget of the item and how they inherently get even weaker than they already have to be when it is effecting less and less people.

offensive - Abyssal scepter had a low range of effect to encourage riskier play, and since its effect was in an aoe for the whole team to enjoy its effects were much weaker than its sibling Void Staff.

defensive - Old aegis was a fantastic team item, but it also suffered from its value being rather useless on an individual basis. The target would likely either be so squishy that they could be merced, or on a tankier champ it would usually be at the expense of a more offensive item, thus gimping the characters they were put on themselves. New Solari is a pretty neato take on the concept though.

Great point. Unfortunately, the balance team has repeatedly shown they have no understanding of power budget, and how to disperse power to different parts a of a kit. (I.E. Zoes's Q, ADC Rework Kog' Maw W) If they do pretend to understand power budget in some champion or item designs they tend to give some items and champs a pass by allowing a larger budget than other champions and items. (I.E. New Akali, New Irelia, or dumping CDR into every item and rune path making it too accessible, limiting themselves in one of the only form of budgeting they had left. )

Z3Sleeper4 votes

We ain't DotA. League is all about clearly conveying exactly what's going on with very little "under the hood" stuff going on.

And that's precisely the reason why auras were removed, not because they lacked counterplay.

Riot's philosophy is that "invisible power" is no bueno.

It's made that way on purpose so there's nowhere near as much of a burden of knowledge for new players unlike DotA where even after a year you're still learning the system.

Not hatin on DotA, it's cool in its own way for that reason. League and DotA are just completely different animals created for different animals.

Moody P6 votes

League is all about clearly conveying exactly what's going on with very little "under the hood" stuff going on.

I don't think it does a good job of that, then. Given that everything is becoming skillshot based or delayed, usually with an indicator, and especially within the context of the current damage meta, I find myself struggling to understand what's happening sometimes with all the hitbox overlaps and massive amounts of AOE just being dumped everywhere in a teamfight. Especially with champions like Irelia who by themselves are so active that keeping track of one champion by herself is a burden, putting her with 4 potentially equally flashy teammates can quickly become a real mess.

I think auras, buffs and debuffs can also be given higher clarity than a small indicator on your HP bar. Granted, if they're so generous that they start to overlap a lot, you run into the same problem I listed above.

Elf04911 votes

Yeah, it does a frankly terrible job. I remember my first time playing the game, and having absolutely no idea what was going on. The in game tutorial is 10x better now than it was then, and it's still pretty bad. I mean, realize that people have written entire posts/articles about minion wave management, a single aspect of a single phase of the game that barely even touches on your actual human opponents. There are about a billion things going on under the hood, even just from strict unknowns, like how long your opponent's remaining cooldowns are, or what specific runes they are running. Add to this the fact that you must simultaneously keep track of a dozen different things, and it becomes very complicated even with simple mechanics!

Moody P1 votes

I'm surprised people don't talk about the tutorial very often. I guess it's because we're all past it, but I played through the new one and it still didn't really tell me anything. Definitely deserving of another take.

Düff McWhalen2 votes

How soon people forget Runic Bulwark stacking. Riot has no idea how to make the game balanced like IceFrog could for DotA. God I miss that guy.

The thing about DotA is that the power comes from items and builds more than individual hero abilities or gimmicks (usually). Every item is a rock/paper/scissor to something. It's all about how you use it.

Moody P2 votes

I really admire DOTA's item system and I've tried to push for some momentum on more actives in the game. No luck, but I'll probably keep bringing it up because the item system has so much unused potential, it's bothered me before I started playing dota

Ragnaveil2 votes

Especially more actives for tank items. Zzrot is niche as all hell. The only good actives on tank items (and honestly the only good ones) are Randuins, Stoneplate, and Righteous Glory. I didn't add Binds (they are simple) and Locket (Its kinda a dead item with how badly it got nerfed for what it did in the ardent meta) for their respective reasons.

Adding more actives to some of those items could add more of a "fun" impact factor to tanks, who lack in the "flashy" combo department.

Moody P1 votes

blink dagger would be a dream come true on way too many of my champions, lol.

Ragnaveil1 votes

Add more fun things to tanks that doesn't require them killing everyone, and people will stop calling them boring (I don't find them boring for the most part)

DragonShea2 votes

Removing Aura's destroyed alot of the playmaking in Lol, among other braindead changes.

Moody P1 votes

I don't think Auras had much to do with playmaking but I think they were a very underappreciated asset to game balance that Riot didn't find a good way to make more obvious and appreciated.

Leetri3 votes

How does auras have anything at all to do with playmaking? You just bought the item and you got an aura.

Jamenawerl1 votes

The thing is, drafting strategy works well in DOTA as a core part of gameplay because every champion is free there. If they added it on LoL it would create a lot of pay2win scenarios that they seem to want to avoid. Thats why LoL is more generic and usually caters to one tricks, because with its current business model it can hardly afford to add more layers to strategy (and diversity for that matter), which in turn makes the game harder to balance.

Furthermore, in order to keep the game interesting with part of the strategy gone they have to give more focus to muh flashy LC$ mechanical/reflex-based outplays, you probably know the drill. Auras go against the fundamental cores of that philosophy because even if they balance the game they dont add mechanical depth nor interactivity. Sure you can add break, dispels and what not but they are generally point and click so they arent eXcITiNg™ and they wouldnt work well as skillshots either for a bunch of reasons. On the other hand delayed dispels are pointless. And Id say it is a philosophy already shared by most of the player base even if they tell you otherwise, really, as you can see with the infamous "muh counterplay" and "muh skillshots".

To finish just superficially point out Rito Game's stance on the "burden of knowledge" and of course the classic CLARITY™, aka given that we are going casual might as well go all the way. Everything has to be intuitive, flashy easy to understand through merely visuals and easy to learn. Unfortunately buffs/debuffs and having an overload of actives generally dont go well with these principles.

TL;DR: DOTA is designed to be a slower, knowledge based game with a niche market. Due to the limitations of its business model League is designed to be a casual farming simulator mechanic intensive clown fiesta.

Moody P1 votes

You're right. I still think both ends of the spectrum can exist and would actually get along decently together if Riot put forth the effort - reliable, simple effects would provide a good counter balance to the flashier champions who trade reliability for agency. Of course, I'm not really a fan of the one-trick pandering Riot's been up to, so I have some obvious biases on the conversation.

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

i'll take old locket over the current one any time, but if all this new crap would be active items then nty. i play league cuz i wanna play league, not dota.

y0r1ck1 votes

I don't think champions should have hard counters in the first place. I don't mind having dispels counter buffs, but champions shouldn't entirely counter each other because pick order exists. First pick getting completely wiped from the game because he picked a buff champion shouldn't happen. As long as a scenario like this doesn't pop up, I'm ok with your idea.

I still think it's unnecessary and that riot has bigger issues to deal with than revamping a buff system. I think much further down the line, some version of your idea will make it into league.

Rebonack1 votes

Just wanted to pop in and mention that one of the surest counters to aura effects is anything that forces the enemy team to spread out.

But League has a massive aversion to counter-picking or god-forbid, drafting a counter-team.

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