Mages are top tier and their players still ask for buffs

Moody P··11 votes·2,752 views

It's so hard to take mage posters seriously when they don't even try to argue that their champ isn't as strong as all stats and their presence across all ranks would suggest. They come in here and post like it's already decided fact that mages are universally weak.

We'll ignore how many mages are or have been shitting on people across all 3 lanes and how mages are easily the biggest roster-killers out of any other class in the game when it comes to determining metas, and we'll ignore how by any objective metric mages are either doing perfectly fine or exceedingly well right now. We'll even ignore that AP itemization is somehow 'not good' despite catering to almost all of your needs.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt right here, mages. Give me the most detailed, convincing argument that your champion or champions is/are weak. Explain yourselves and present reasonable discourse or I will curse you with a thousand Hexdrinkers item 3155

23 Comments

Titanium708 votes

I wonder what mages are you talking about?

The only relevant mages these days are Brand Zyra Fiddlesticks - the ones to bad for their main role, that's why they go supp. Lissandra Viktor - as counterpicks, and with anything but mage itemization! Karthus - and this guy got some attention for what ever reason - not sure what to think of that.

The actuall mage roaster is A LITTLE wider... Velkoz Xerath Ziggs Orianna Lux Syndra Zilean Veigar Heimerdinger Anivia Azir Ryze Taliyah Cassiopeia AurelionSol

And for basicly all of them applys you either one-trick them and get a somewhat decent winrate or you never touch them. Those are the Champions that create complains!

And why you ask? Look at the actual meta right now!

Irelia Zed Yasuo Leblanc Akali invalidating half of your kit. Camille LeeSin love nothing more than geting fed of immobile squishys.


Mages are in an OK spot in terms of having impact on the game. But certainly nothing more. That is not the problem.

Laning as a mage these days is beyond frustrating. And not just in a few games. The amount of BS you have to play through to eventually get your items and be usefull and that's EVERY SINGLE GAME makes people really ask them selfes why on earth they're still putting their effort into this champs.

mack91127 votes

These boards are hilarious when akali and irelia are forgotten in the wake of karthus and ziggs

Moody P4 votes

How many times does it need to be hammered into your head that Akali is a free win for you in the rank you're playing in? Not to mention, Akali doesn't even counter mages in the ranks she is good in. She counterpicks targeted damage, which heavily biases her into AD and fighter matchups. She gets crushed by skillshot mages who can toss their AOEs into her shroud and blow her up.

Irelia is, likewise, not nearly as strong as you claim her to be in low elo. I'll give you that her strength far exceeds anything her stats could ever represent, but she is not dominant anymore and bellyaching about her when she's not an issue at your level of play is played out.

mack91122 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ilaasRyN,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-11-27T04:02:29.859+0000)

How many times does it need to be hammered into your head that Akali is a free win for you in the rank you're playing in? Not to mention, Akali doesn't even counter mages in the ranks she is good in. She counterpicks targeted damage, which heavily biases her into AD and fighter matchups. She gets crushed by skillshot mages who can toss their AOEs into her shroud and blow her up.

Irelia is, likewise, not nearly as strong as you claim her to be in low elo. I'll give you that her strength far exceeds anything her stats could ever represent, but she is not dominant anymore and bellyaching about her when she's not an issue at your level of play is played out.

i have no idea who you are

WhispersinMyHead1 votes

Isnt Akali op in general? You cant beat that shit with any champion to my experience. You cant even gank it. Or hide under your tower. Amazing design tbh.

PaffWasTaken7 votes

Because of the simple fact that, indeed, most mages are more than often "universally weak". You say they "define the meta" when, really, only some few mages actually bust the meta. When tanks break the meta, almost every single tank are meta. When marksmens break the meta, only those who get outclassed by the others aren't meta. When assassins break the meta, they can be picked anywhere anytime and any of them can do good. Mages? When they are "meta breaking", its barely because of 2, 3 or 4 individuals who rises from the dead for a few patches are doing quite good only to get nerfed individualy right after. Right now, there's Viktor ,Lissandra and only recently Karthus who are arguably broken, the rest is broken only because of dark harvest which is, quite frankly, making everyone who isn't a mage either broken too. When people ask for buffs for mages, they want the class in general to get better because a lot of other mages have to suffer because people like you only see the strongest ones and yell "omg mages too strong".

And when we look at itemisation, it only gets worse. Almost every single classes in the game have a way to counter magic damage from any source early to mid-game. item 3194 item 3065 item 3156 item 3231 item 3001 when build as second or third item will most probably negate pretty much anything a mage can do until it can safely build item 3135 (which is pretty damn late because of the mana guts mages went through early this year). Meanwhile, mages only have the option to build item 3157 to protect them, which it can do only every 120 seconds, since only the active is effective because of how armor is useless and also because item 3147 is a thing. Even funnier, the most meta mage picks I mentionned earlier are all mages who's primary advantage is to counter this lack of defense, further proving that this very aspect of the game is keeping most mages from being as powerfull as other classes. There's also always this argument that people use: "Almost every games have mages, therefore they are broken". The only reason why mages who arent meta are still picked and still have decent winrates is because almost every comps need waveclear and because a mage will force the enemy to build items mentionned above, who are not as efficient against other classes. Thats it. Mages are used to cost an item slot and to push lanes/poke

Moody P3 votes

When tanks break the meta, almost every single tank are meta.

This isn't true at all. It's almost always a small handful of tanks at play that make themselves apparent in any meta.

When marksmens break the meta, only those who get outclassed by the others aren't meta.

And it's almost always 3 or 4 marksmen stomping the lights out of everyone else.

will most probably negate pretty much anything a mage can do

Why even bother lying? You stack 33 flat mPen within your first 2 items plus your boots. Nobody's negating you, or else mages would not be performing so well. Void Staff is, at the very latest, your 4th item.

mages only have

Mages have health or resists on most of the items they're building beyond their raw AP from Deathcap and Void Staff. You don't get to have the raw in-built power that comes with a mage kit and then also have great tank stats. And even then, plenty of AP champs are getting 3k health with modest resists. Duskblade is trash, I don't know why you're still complaining about it.

The only reason why mages who arent meta are still picked

Your ability to downplay the immense value that comes with mage range, AOE and all the utilities they come with is impressive, I'll give you that.

Wilyum6 votes

This is because mages are weak into the meta. Most mages lose to a good Akali, Irelia, Zed, Yasuo, etc. they are strong in lanes like top and as support because the meta is to play immobile champions there. If you want a specific example of one here; Orianna will generally lose into most meta picks (named above). This is because she requires skill shots to deal damage, as do most mages, but someone like Irelia, Akali, or Zed can miss their skill shots and still one shot you. I don't play mages this is just what people think about the topic.

Moody P6 votes

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Zed/Middle/ https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Akali/Middle/ https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Yasuo/Middle/ https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Irelia/Middle/

Sorting for these champions in the most generous ELO that's relevant to Boards overall (Platinum+ stats) most of these champions are not doing well overall and all of them lose quite hard to mages, especially the meta ones like Lissandra. In fact, Akali is straight garbage until you sort for Masters, which is far too small a sample size to reliably draw from.

Wilyum4 votes

Lissandra just became meta with her buffs, not a great example of a mage either I would consider her more an AP engage champion like Galio. There are very few "meta" mages. Win Rate is not really a good indication of strength. Akali and Irelia are arguably the strongest champions in game, but many fools play akali so her winrate is bad. That doesn't mean she isn't strong in the laning phase. There are items that gives a direct shield against AP damage there is no such item for AD. Hexdrinker is unique to AP giving early damage and defense, seeker armguard does not compare. AP is strong into no mobile champions otherwise you can just dodge skill shots, can't do that against an Irelia, Talon, ect.

Moody P1 votes

Lissandra's been meta for a while, mate. I don't think she got buffed recently aside from her passive change, and she was a pretty prominent pick in pro play with Aftershock.

Akali's winrate is abysmal in your games because her skill floor is extremely high. Trust me, if that Akali knows what she's doing, it's guaranteed a smurf. Not like it matters because she's permaban across all ELOs at the moment, but relative to where you're at right now she's not someone you should worry about.

There are items that gives a direct shield against AP damage there is no such item for AD

Because without it most ADs would get shit on by AP harass. You don't seem to be acknowledging that mages tend to outrange AD fighters and assassins by a considerable margin as well as having (ranged) hard CC. Hexdrinker is a tool to survive the lane; you have the advantage of range already. Now, I'll grant you, Riot's been over generous with mobility as a bandaid fix to addressing the melee-ranged discrepancy, but that does not erode the argument. Hexdrinker is a saving grace for top lane fighters who have trouble dealing with AP harass.

You're tunneling on the fact that some champions outplay you sometimes and not what happens when those champs aren't in your games. Mages who outplay people -- or who have no enemies that can outplay them -- completely clean up house on a good play. In fact, mages are the sole reason that champions like Yasuo and Talon and Fizz are necessary; you need to be able to be outplayed because that's really the only way to overcome the raw power in your kits. Garen isn't going to keep AP champions in check.

Wilyum1 votes

You are ignoring several factors. First off, no she hasn't, I am not talking about pro-play I am talking about the actual player base. You know the thing you and I are a part of. Secondly, I acknowledged that Akali was played by "fools" which brings her winrate down, but this doesn't make her a bad champion, in fact, she is still arguably one of the strongest in the game. I don't worry about her, I play jungle and she's not really a big deal to me. Your argument, however, was that mages are too strong and Akali is an example of a meta pick strong against those OP mages. Just because you have to be good with her doesn't mean she isn't strong into almost all mages.

Your third point is laughable. You are saying it is okay for AD champions to get a large AP shield because without it they lose? Your arguments basis is that because the mage is ranged you need a shield to help against poke, weird I thought there was already one in the masteries, I must have been mistaken (I'm NOT). My argument against it is that one item seriously inhibits the kill potential of any AP damage while still adding more AD to that champion. You don't see people building Seeker's Armguard and suddenly able to survive a Zed combo, and you shouldn't see that the other way around either.

You are arguing nothing with your last point. You say that because mages can be outplayed but people don't pick the counter its an insta-loss. Any champion can outplay any champion, what are you on about? Garen literally can keep mages in check, runs at their low mobile asses and silences them, then spins to win and presses R, Garen can 1v1 several mages if he dodges one skill shot. You name several champions who are viable into mages (even though this is a shit example because there is only one "meta" top lane mage, Viktor the next closest thing isn't even in the top 25 most played champs at plat+); if someone picks Ivern, why would I not pick Warwick and invade them all day? Having counter picks does not make other picks useless, its less about who you play and more about how you play.

Mages having strong counter-picks is a good thing, but this doesn't mean other picks are useless, Viktor blows his load and Jax survives? Well, Viktor is now dead. If you could survive a mages combo like it were nothing then they would serve no purpose at all.

deadlychuck6 votes

Mages aren't strong, Magic damage is strong as a result of physical damage scaling so well. The stats look good because mages tend to only show up as 1/5 on a team, but also don't have multiple viable positions, which means that overall when a mage goes mid and loses the lane, they're still a bigger help to their team than when a yasuo goes mid and wins the lane, because the entire enemy team has already been stacking armor. So while mages might tend to win the game it doesn't make them strong, it's a result of them being a niche like a support who can increase the odds of their team winning, rather than necessarily being an independently strong pick.

Hyquiem5 votes

Oh yeah? Explain to me what 3 mages dominate bot lane right now that aren’t burst mages? List me mages that Dominate the meta now THAT ARENT BURST mages. List me mages ho dominate the jungle!

It’s like you don’t understand the sheer stupidity of mages now. Ether your a burst mage, or the mage deals a large amount of damage just in a combo.

Hex drinker grants you a free escape, from any mage why? B/c the thing provided you with an anti burst shield, for Pete’s sake it’s even useful in a team fight when up graded to Maw.

What do mages have as an answer zhonyas, and zhonyas just stuns you in immortality basically. If you don’t have flash your dead, or an answer to the burst. It has a stupidly long cd as well with now ultimate cool downs being reduced as well as CDR being so easy to get for assassins.

Who do mages fight? Mages fight every thing from tanks and brusiers to assassins and adcs. Who do assassins fight? Just the adcs and mages. The only mages that asked for buffs, are lux, Taliyah and ryze. Why? b/c they get absolutely shit on in the midlane.

WalkingInACircle5 votes

Git gud.

Moody P3 votes

Your lack of self awareness is staggering

PhearBunny3 votes

hexdrinker and every MR item in the game isn't saving me from mages right now.

Noor Sakata3 votes

Are all Top lane mains like Hashinshin ?

Moody P1 votes

Are all mage mains completely disconnected from reality?

Noor Sakata3 votes

Now how the Hell mages are the best class ? If anything, it would be bruisers lol , secondly junglers and assassins Mages are no way being the strongest Go play mages , can't tell if you actually do when you only post from a level 10 account

Moody P1 votes

bruisers are mediocre outside of the small handful of strong picks and most of them aren't seeing a lot of play even in soloQ -- and they're ALL being nerfed next patch. Most of them hover unimpressive stats, with Juggernauts sitting with some of the worst performances in the game atm barring the extremely shitty champions like Corki.

most mages boast superior performances across the board, even the low-pick rate AP champions are doing great for themselves. it's simple statistics mate, you can cross compare win/pick rates and see for yourself. The lowest win-rate mage mid in Plat+, excluding Azir/Ryze who are intentionally kept low WR in soloQ, is Syndra, and her performance jumps massively the higher rank you search for - just like Akali, she's quite bad in lower ELO but still very potent in upper ranks.

Tahminatrix 2 votes

Buff Velkoz

He doesn't get the satisfaction / suspense / doomsday counter that comes with building item 3135 and making all of those mr items useless. Because they already are :(

(Im hating on voidstaff tho, vel koz okay / fine I think)

Gall2 votes

My main Brand is exceedingly strong right now. No complaints from me.

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