Congrats on runeglaive

Still on most junglers wouldnt an Iceborne be better in that it deals similar aoe damage and brings damage mitigation, mana, and an aoe slow to the table? When I think about playing maoki which would be better, glaive and sunfire or cinderhulk and iceborn?

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Runeglaive is AoE and provides cleaning.

It also only does like 100 These dumbass sheep nowadays. OMG A STREAMER OR SOMEONE USED IT, BETTER USE IT EVERY GAME It literally does fucking 100. fucking 100.

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Runeglaive is AoE and provides cleaning.

the clearing is not strong at all early game and by mid to late if you had completely ignored it and built a real ap item then you will be able to clear anyways. You need power for fights and ganks which lich bane provides for you but even then unless you are fizz, you wouldnt build lich bane first anyways.

Your math is completely off.

It doesn't add a base damage, it works off of the champions "base physical attack + 30% of your AP".

The only items that add a base amount of damage are Nashor's Tooth (which has a scaling) and Wits End.

Nashor's Tooth: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Nashor%27s_Tooth Wits End: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Wits_End

lets take your Example but we'll use a level 18 Diana JUST to compare:

Diana: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Diana Runeglaive: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Runeglaive Lich Bane: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Lichbane

level 18 Diana with 104 base AD and 500 AP.

With Runeglaive:

100% of physical base damage of 104 = 104. 30% of 500 AP = 150

[104 physical base + 150 Magic damage] = 254 Magic damage on next autoattack

With Lich Bane:

75% of physical base damage of 104 = 78 50% of 500 AP = 250 Magic damage

[78 physical base + 250 magic damage] = 328 magic damage on next autoattack

With that, thats a difference of 74 damage.

While Runeglaive is AoE, Lich Bane scales so much harder if you're stacking more AP to make use it. Whats the ball park of high end amounts of AP?

600?

800?

[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iiYbEZF1,comment-id=000000010001,timestamp=2015-07-01T11:53:03.375+0000)

Lichbane gives 30 more AP and a 20% higher ratio, but it's single target. Rune is 30% ratio with a 100% base AD ratio that turns the ENTIRE attack, that means an Ez's Q and Fizz's Q, into Magic Damage rather than dealing physical. It also synergizes well with Diana's kit, making her AoE-loving kit do lots more AoE while also making her AA do lots of damage.

I'll even compare it for you. Say you have 500 AP with this item and 530 with the Lichbane.

500 AP on this item makes your next AA do around 100 base damage which is now magic, another 100 because of its ratio, and 30% of your AP, so that's 100+100+150, so 350. Lichbane does 75% of your base AD and 50% of your AP, so that's 100 base PHYSICAL, 75 Magic, and 265 magic, totaling 340 magic and 100 physical. That's just for a standard AA though. There's about a 90 damage difference prior to resistances. Most have about 80ish MR and about 100 Armor, but say you have a void, so you ignore 40% of their MR.

We're at 48 MR and 100 armor. 100 armor is 50% reduction. Formula is MR/(MR+100). You likely have another 23 MPen. 8 from runes, 15 from boots. So that's 25 MR left. 25 MR is 20% reduction. That means the Rune will do about 280. The Lich would do 50 physical and 272 magical. That means there's about a 42 damage difference on your average carry. Literally 42. That's almost negligible. lol.

Say we want to use a tank though! That's about 200 armor and 100 MR, pretty standard stuff. 200 Armor is about 67% reduction. 100 MR is 50%, however we ignore 40% of it and another 23, bringing us down to 37. (100-40% is 60, minus 23 is 37). 37 MR is about 27% reduction. So Rune does 255.5 damage. Lich does 33 physical and 248.2 damage. That means the difference is 25.7 damage.

Needless to say, the more armor there is on a target, including if they grab a Zhonya's, the less the difference between a Lich and a Rune becomes because of the initial damage being converted into magical.

All this math is done with the upgraded Runeglaive that has a 100% base AD ratio and 50 AP, up from 40.

Yeah, Runeglaive is great on specifically, and almost entirely, on Diana, but that is pretty much who uses it the most, and can benefit from it the most outside of Eve, compared to the old AP item. The other actual junglers that are ap don't really benefit from it as well as they did the old version, which is what bothers people.

Sure, it is cute and all that Ezreal can use it, but that sort of isn't the point of the item, and if anything is going to get it nerfed if people start using it on him, hence why Cinderhulk got nerfed most recent with all the top laners taking it.

Same reason the old (pre-the new summoner's rift jungle items) jungle item got nerfed with Ez using it too much (not just Ez but he was the main offender).

If part of your argument is, non-junglers can use it and do good, that is a terrible argument, and only further points out why it isn't a good item, because it is not only worse on previous AP junglers, it actually lowers the amount of viable AP junglers (which one of the Rioters flat out said that exact thing on the most recent patch rundown).

Pretty sure an item that makes LESS champions viable in the jungler and causes MORE non-junglers to use it in lane...is bad.

The bigger problem is that rushing either item is a bad idea, which is fine for Lich Bane users - they just finish it later. Runeglaive doesn't have that choice, as the enchantment is meant to catch the jungler back up from the gold spent on PvE stats.

Except that fact that the passive on Cinderhulk is way stronger than the passive on Sunfire. Not to mention the fact that Randuin's is superior to Sunfire Cape as an Armor+HP item in almost every way as well. The passive on Lich Bane also offers way more burst and AP than Runeglaive could ever offer, which most AP junglers relied on, like Nidalee and Diana.

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Cinderhulk isn't a bad item because it's good on non-junglers. Likewise, if Runeglaive is decent outside of the jungle, that's not its problem. The problem is that it's not good in the jungle.

I never said cinderhulk was bad, nor did I say it was bad that non-junglers played it, because given how pro top laners played, with thier early taking camps and so on and so forth, it made sense, and it worked.

Cinderhulk in general was just sort of strong, but it wasn't problematic. The problem, and what my point was, having an item that is better on someone out of the jungle, compared to a lot of junglers, is bad.

Fiddle worked fine with Magus, but he rarely auto attacks in the jungle, because you rarely, if ever aren't draining or some such to have time to auto, so it mostly just nerfed him with less ap.

The problem I have with Ez using it specifically, is because we have already seen a case where a good jungle item was picked up on Ez, then nerfed pretty roughly (the old map and jungle items) and then it was bad on everyone.

When items are picked up on people Riot doesn't want them picked up on, it rarely, if ever, ends good.

We can go all the way back to Heart of Gold, which was mainly meant to be a way for junglers to get passive gold and some health (there weren't as many easy ways for health then in comparison, outside of a few cases). Just about every laner started taking Heart of Gold, what happened? Riot straight up deleted it from the game so no one could use it, which hurt jungler gold income for a bit.

An jungle item being good, not on a jungler, but a laner, is bad in my opinion. Riot still, somehow, hasn't learn how to balance an item to be attractive to junglers and not laners, and it ends up the items are attractive for laners and not junglers.

I don't get how they still haven't figured it out for as many times as it has happened, especially with Ezreal.