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Why does Cho'Gath have a 2.5 second AOE silence?

Drunk Rummate··7 votes·2,256 views

Doesn't that seem a bit excessive to anyone?

I hate to be the guy bringing it up, because I'm glad to see Cho getting some play. I think the buffs to his feast really helped a lot here since he can stack his passive much faster, and I really don't think he needs major nerfs.

But I would really like to see a redistribution of power here. Riot has been systematically removing silences from 'assassins' (see: Leblanc, Talon) and while AP cho is certainly a mage, I also think he has plenty of assassin-like characteristics. More than anything I think silence itself is a bit of a silly mechanic, mostly because it's duration is allowed to be so much longer than other forms of CC.

Anyone else feel the same way?

Edit: Just to clarify, I don't want a flat nerf, I just think redistributing the power away from his silence while maintaining his current power level (or perhaps even a net buff) would be a healthy change.

32 Comments

ChargeItDownMid7 votes

[deleted]

Drunk Rummate1 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, league desperately needs long duration silences (preferably instant/aoe) to stop mobility from being even more overpowered. Being immobile is already one of the biggest handicaps in the game and there is no reason to remove spells that attempt to close that gap.

Silences do not only prevent mobility though. They prevent you from doing anything outside of walking and auto attacking. Even ADCs are often heavily reliant on abilities as a damage steroid, and 2.5 seconds feels like an eternity in fights that generally last about 10 seconds.

Comparatively, Leona can use both her Q and perfectly center her ult on you for a total of 2.75 seconds of stun. That's 2 abilities, one tied to her ultimate. And if the ultimate isn't centered on you for the stun you can still flash or use your abilities.

Durzaka1 votes

Try and use Lucian's E or LeBlanc's W while silenced.

Go on, ill wait.

djjomon3 votes

Because he's an old champion who hasn't been reworked yet. That's the real answer.

I know what you mean by assassin-like characteristics, but that's kinda flawed. If you mean he can 100-0 a squishy in one burst, yeah kinda. But it's unreliable. He also doesn't have a gap closer. He's not an assassin or even assassin like. He just has heavy burst, like assassins.

I agree, a 2.5 AoE bursty silence is a bit crazy. Riot could redistribute his power and remove his silence. Honestly, they probably will one day. His kit is definitely outdated. But please don't compare him to the assassin trend, they play very differently.

doublelift fg1 votes

remove his silence? why? people are so fcking dumb to think that 2.5 sec silence is more than powerfull compared to 2 sec knockup. his kit is outdated? hell no stop saying random dumb things his kit isn't outdated cho gat is slow like every tanks has decent damage until late game and help his team with his tankiness and cc in late game.

the only thing which is outdated is his E

djjomon2 votes

Should he have both the silence and knock up? Us fucking dumb people are quicker to assume his silence will be removed than his knock up. Or, if his disruptive nature is what defines him, why does he need true damage too?

That's what I mean by outdated. It's kinda random, not thematically focused like newer champions/reworks.

If you're arguing that his kit is healthy, I'll agree. It's healthy. If you're arguing that it's up to current standards, I'll disagree. But no one's ever wrong in league, ever.

doublelift fg1 votes

no, flat true damage are mean to be good in early game until they have HP, that feet with his because tanks need to do damage in early game, i told you the only thing he doesn't need is his E

djjomon1 votes

But his E helps with his jungle clear and wave pushing. It's really versatile, even if not maxed first. His kit is heavily based around AoE, except for his ult.

Skunt3 votes

If Cho'Gath yelled at you, would you talk back to him? That's why he has his silence.

Durzaka3 votes

To make it possible for him to get his fat ass in range to do anything against league of mobility. And also to make it possible for him to land one of the most telegraphed skillshots in the entire game.

DrCyanide1 votes

His rupture has a wider radius than Veigar's dark matter, with half the telegraph time... Just saying.

Durzaka1 votes

mage vs. tank.

Veigar isnt good right now, but that isnt a comparison worth any discussion.

DrCyanide2 votes

I'm just saying there are more telegraphed abilities in the game, some of them by a significant amount.

Durzaka1 votes

"One of the most telegraphed"

Was that really that hard to read?

GetBoomedOn2 votes

I think chogaths kit is versatile and good for the game. I don't see him as OP at all.

Sightless661 votes

It's fine the way it is. It's a bit of unique power he has, it doesn't really cause any problems, and it helps give him something strong and reliable since his Q and E aren't reliable. I'm honestly a fan of adding more champions with strong silences to the game. It's an underused mechanic, and it affects champions in a way that other forms of CC don't, which is nice to play with and around. I miss the days of 3-second Cho silence.

He doesn't really have assassin-like characteristics. He doesn't have any mobility. If he goes in, he doesn't have options to get back out. He's much more based around being tanky than around avoiding damage. I guess he's got burst, but that's not just an assassin trait, and he doesn't have any guaranteed method of getting in to use it. If I had to label characters as a "not-assassin", Cho would be pretty high up my list (not like Janna or Bard, but still up there). What assassin-like characteristics are you thinking about?

I can understand your position about disliking silences, but I just can't agree that this is necessary.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

He has quite heavy, but somewhat unreliable burst if build complete AP, courtesy of heavily outdated AP ratios. If they lowered his Q and W ratios a few notches, people would complain as much about him, as he has quite a bit of weaknesses and counterplay.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

{quoted}

He has quite heavy, but somewhat unreliable burst if build complete AP, courtesy of heavily outdated AP ratios. If they lowered his Q and W ratios a few notches, people would complain as much about him, as he has quite a bit of weaknesses and counterplay.

I'd hate to touch the ratios on his QWE. I think full AP cho is fine in terms of damage, but the CC he brings with that damage is crazy to say the least. Making feast deal magic damage instead of true damage would be an interesting change as well, but then it probably wouldn't make much difference since you'd be silenced and unable to exhaust him anyways.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

{quoted}

What assassin-like characteristics are you thinking about?

I think he's got assassin-like characteristics in that it's impossible for a squishy champion to approach him in a 1v1 situation. Any ADC who walks up will be silenced, ruptured while silenced, and feasted for 100-0 burst. You can't approach him until he burns that silence at a minimum which seems very much like an assassin's kit to me (wait til they use it on the wrong target before exposing yourself being the counterplay).

Sightless662 votes

That hasn't really been my experience. The silence may be guaranteed, but dodging the rupture and then taking Cho down is not unreasonable. I've taken a fed Cho down 1v1 as an ADC, and it's not hard at all as a mage. I can't say I've done the same for a fed assassin. He also has weak tools to actually get into range to force you to fight him in a 1v1. In terms of available counterplay, 1v1 potential, and general kit direction, I'd still put him in the top-tier of the "not-an-assassin club". He's got heavy mage burst. Not really

This isn't really important though. I still just don't see a problem with his silence. They need longer durations than stuns because you can still do a lot during them. I'd say it's in a very healthy place. If I thought he needed a nerf, I'd advocate for nerfs to other areas before that.

stuartk111 votes

I think that the reason that Cho'Gath has been left with his silence is because it has a somewhat short range, but the cone that it hits is really painful. Though if they removed the silence (to seemingly nerf him), then there wouldn't be nearly as much reason to play Cho'Gath as a mage or a tank. Without the disruption which he has, he wouldn't have any reliable CC or enough presence in fights to make much of a difference. The reason to play a short range mage like Cho'Gath would be for the combination of disruption and damage. I don't see the assassin characteristics, considering his main weakness is in the ability to be kited to hell. Assassins that can be kited out (if there are any) would obviously suck. But Cho'Gath has sustain aswell, which is a little excessive. But he does have genuine weaknesses. He is easily kited, and can be harassed almost freely. His E is pretty much a passive, and he has short ranges with little engage potential. Instead he has disruption for an already-active team-fight, with descent damage.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

I agree that simply removing the silence would destroy him. You would have to redirect that lost power somewhere else in his kit. Currently his silence has a lot of synergy with rupture because if you land scream then rupture is extremely easy to land as well (which then combos into feast if necessary).

Personally I could see taking away the silence but only if there were some redistribution of power, likely directed towards his E. Another option in my opinion would simply be to reduce the duration of the silence from 2.5 seconds to something shorter because as I said, that duration seems very excessive to me.

I mean look at Blitzcrank for example, he has a high damage AOE silence but it's tied to his ~higher CD ultimate and it only lasts for a single second. Why does chogaths last so much longer on a shorter cd?

stuartk111 votes

{quoted}

I agree that simply removing the silence would destroy him. You would have to redirect that lost power somewhere else in his kit. Currently his silence has a lot of synergy with rupture because if you land scream then rupture is extremely easy to land as well (which then combos into feast if necessary).

Personally I could see taking away the silence but only if there were some redistribution of power, likely directed towards his E. Another option in my opinion would simply be to reduce the duration of the silence from 2.5 seconds to something shorter because as I said, that duration seems very excessive to me.

I mean look at Blitzcrank for example, he has a high damage AOE silence but it's tied to his ~higher CD ultimate and it only lasts for a single second. Why does chogaths last so much longer on a shorter cd?

I have yet to see Cho'Gath prove himself to be overpowered yet. I always have my eyes on other champions who end up dominating (such as LeBlanc in mid lane, Lucian at the beginning of season 4 and Lee Sin for god knows how long). I don't even think he's really that strong in the mid lane either. He mostly just counters assassins such as Katarina because of his silence. I've never lost a game against a Cho'Gath and felt that I couldn't do anything. He does have an incredibly short range, and having to land your Rupture for a chance to catch up with an opponent, then more often than not, the enemy will be engaging on you.

Basically, I've never felt Cho'Gath to be overpowering, and nerfing him when there are larger problematic champions currently left untouched. Also, Blitzcrank is a support with a strong laning phase. But whatever, I don't play him enough to really comment on him.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

I'd just like to clarify that I'm not asking for a nerf of any kind. I'd just like the power to be shifted away from his silence and towards something else because it heavily reduces any counterplay available.

stuartk111 votes

{quoted}

I'd just like to clarify that I'm not asking for a nerf of any kind. I'd just like the power to be shifted away from his silence and towards something else because it heavily reduces any counterplay available.

The problem comes in where you would redirect it. If you removed the silence, then you would be removing a fairly large amount of power that he currently has. How do you think it should be redistributed?

Drunk Rummate1 votes

{quoted}

The problem comes in where you would redirect it. If you removed the silence, then you would be removing a fairly large amount of power that he currently has. How do you think it should be redistributed?

Well the main aspect of his silence outside of the damage is that it provides a reliable combo into his rupture, which is otherwise fairly difficult to land against a competent opponent. I think the biggest loss Cho would experience from a silence nerf would be his ability to combo into rupture + ult.

I think a healthy way to redirect that power would be to rework his E. The vorpal spikes are by far the most lackluster aspect of his kit and the amount of damage they add is pretty pathetic. I think changing his E into something more like a Trundle pillar would be a healthy addition to his kit, especially if they removed his silence.

stuartk111 votes

{quoted}

Well the main aspect of his silence outside of the damage is that it provides a reliable combo into his rupture, which is otherwise fairly difficult to land against a competent opponent. I think the biggest loss Cho would experience from a silence nerf would be his ability to combo into rupture + ult.

I think a healthy way to redirect that power would be to rework his E. The vorpal spikes are by far the most lackluster aspect of his kit and the amount of damage they add is pretty pathetic. I think changing his E into something more like a Trundle pillar would be a healthy addition to his kit, especially if they removed his silence.

That's probably be a fair comparison. Though I think that adding something like a Trundle pillar would be a little overkill. Maybe change his W from a silence to a slow? Though I'm not sure how that would work thematically. Lower the duration to 1.5 seconds, and maybe lower the AP ratio on it (it is shockingly high), and add the power elsewhere.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

{quoted}

That's probably be a fair comparison. Though I think that adding something like a Trundle pillar would be a little overkill. Maybe change his W from a silence to a slow? Though I'm not sure how that would work thematically. Lower the duration to 1.5 seconds, and maybe lower the AP ratio on it (it is shockingly high), and add the power elsewhere.

Overkill probably. It was just the best I could think of on the spot. I think changing it to a slow would only impact immobile champions while any champion with a dash would then get off scot free, so not so sure about that. Maybe different duration on silence based on where you are within the cone? ~0.5 seconds at the edges and creeping up to 2.5 seconds the closer you are to Cho.

stuartk111 votes

{quoted}

Overkill probably. It was just the best I could think of on the spot. I think changing it to a slow would only impact immobile champions while any champion with a dash would then get off scot free, so not so sure about that. Maybe different duration on silence based on where you are within the cone? ~0.5 seconds at the edges and creeping up to 2.5 seconds the closer you are to Cho.

Could be a descent way to way its power. The main problem is not having anywhere to really place power taken from his W. It does seem that the silence is kind of necessary. It is short range, and is mostly useful when the enemy engages on you, since he does lack engage and any type of mobility to reach the short range that the cone has. He is mostly a team-fight monster, and I would rather he didn't get nerfed out of his only strong role on a team.

IcyPepper1 votes

Doesn't that seem a bit excessive to anyone?

Kalista Leblanc Zed LeeSin Nidalee

With league of mobility dominating, I don't mind a little cc to kick their ass. At least Cho'Gath is relatively close ranged.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

{quoted}

Kalista Leblanc Zed LeeSin Nidalee

With league of mobility dominating, I don't mind a little cc to kick their ass. At least Cho'Gath is relatively close ranged.

Of the champions you listed chogath is only really good against Zed though...

Sinister Snail1 votes

Silences are generally overrated. You can still do a lot while you're silenced, while a stun or knockup completely incapacitates you. I'd call BS if he had two AOE knockups, but a knockup and silence isn't that bad.

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