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Overwhelming offense is whats causing the lack of counterplay

Hibeki··88 votes·19,551 views

Ill use very key examples to make this point.

Riot's MO for the past four seasons in a row has been "Something is a problem? Buff something else to match its power" instead of hitting it with the nerf bat.

If you have 2 apples and 8 oranges, you dont replace the 8 oranges to make them all even.

Lets take zed for example.

https://imgur.com/UjZt6h8

With an unfinished item, his one single ability press is doing 500 damage. Theres barely any counterplay here, he doesnt need his ult to kill you. So the only solution for the other midlaner usually is to buy item 3157 , another un-interactable cancer. But they NEED that uninteractable cancer just so they can play the game.

Instead of buffing the stats of zhonyas so that they get more use when forced to do this, you should be nerfing zed instead and tackling the problem.

Riots entire balance philosophy is finding a newer, shinier bucket to hold the water instead of fixing the leak. And its killing this game.

This isn't a Zed hate thread, and its not a Zhonyas hate thread. We need more nerfs. A full season of nerfs wouldnt be enough to backtrack at this point. Stop buffing things to match a power level, you need to bring them down to the line not raise the line.

OR how about summoner 14? Instead of nerfing the other summoners so this would be chosen, they buffed ignite. Eventually they nerfed the other summoners and oh look, now ignite is a problem again.

We need more nerfs. No buffs. Halt all champion updates and new champions until you address the problem. Its the only way to put league back where it belongs.

66 Comments

BlackOnyxAltear19 votes

Zhonyas is a necesarry "uninteractive cancer".
First eliminate the cause of the illness, then remove the symptom.

Hibeki6 votes

I made that point. And I agree. Nerf the need for zhonyas, then remove the zhonyas.

Fízz v217 votes

another un-interactable cancer

u mean the item that stuns you for 2.5 seconds and sets you up for things like Cait/Zoe traps or just cc in general?

DuskDaUmbreon41 votes

Okay.

But the item itself is anti-interactive. It's literally an item that lets you go "I don't want to interact with this game" for 2.5 seconds every 2 minutes.

The item is a necessary evil. Sure, there's counterplay to it in some situations. But it's also used a lot of the time to remove counterplay (See: Heimer R+Zhonya's, Fiddle R+Zhonya's, Ryze R+Zhonya's, Morgana R+Zhonya's, Zhonya's versus Zed R...).

Zhonya's should be an item designed to give you a chance to breathe, reset cooldowns, and prepare a bit. It should not be a necessary item to survive someone who's gone even with you.

RyzeTheSmurfMage29 votes

Ryze R+ Zhonia's got removed (cries).

Danjeng2 votes

f

Hibeki38 votes

For a good reason.

RyzeTheSmurfMage2 votes

That reason being ignoring SoloQ and balancing around 80 players instead of milions others? He didn't even got compensation buffs something other champs get after this kind of nerfs.

Hibeki17 votes

Because he doesnt deserve them? its a literal get out of jail free card. in pro play and solo queue

D3m37r14 votes

Have you ever even played ryze? His ult is almost useless unless you're using voice chat.

Faceroll Tactics1 votes

Not every ultimate has to be super powerful in both solo que and pro play.

50000000000000002 votes

Actually you can use it as a dueling/skirmishing tool in a solo queue environment. Cast R behind enemy, and if they try to run, you'll catch up to them. If they stay, you can just step out of the ult and finish them off.

theChibiTina2 votes

And yet Ekko's ult is a thing. >.>

Waffle Champion2 votes

Riot didn't have a choice on that one, it was either Ryze was a complete monster in Professional Play or he was complete garbage in Solo Q, they couldn't balance him for both.

RyzeTheSmurfMage2 votes

So it's better for him to have a garbage ult in soloQ for the sake of 80 players? They are supposed to be the best players in the World They SHOULD be able to adapt to every meta and every champ but noooo the meta has to revolve around them cause logic. Why can't they give him another ult like they did with LeBlanc? Srsly just give him a damaging ult and the main problem will be gone.

Joseraph1 votes

Throwback to old Ryze ult where I could press R, let off a rotation or two on wolves, come back into the lane with full HP, and his ult on like 10 sec cooldown

Stevev451 votes

Sounds like what every adc can do but they don't need to waist ult.

Joseraph1 votes

It really wasn't even wasting it because it was almost off cd by the time you walked back, and he could do it at level 6 long before any adc had lifesteal

Hibeki5 votes

Wow a few minor characters can use it to a slight advantage.

Every other person in the game gets fucked by on demand stasis/untargetable

Just like every other person in the game gets fucked by a full zed rotation. One existing doesnt make the other justified.

RocketRelm1 votes

Speaking as somebody who plays a lot as one of those aforementioned characters (Morgana), I stopped buying Zhoynas in my standard build years ago. It's just not worth it, you give up too many stats. Sure, I'll consider the tradeoff when against Zed or when it's a specific pick, or building it as a fourth item after Dcap where raw stat efficiency isn't as important. In most circumstances, I just can't give up literally 1.5k worth of gold efficiency at 15 minutes in for the opportunity to maybe make a zhoynas play.

Flash-ult Morgana is garbage right now because before it worked by being able to get bulk with runes, and surviving at least 1 second reliably after flashing in. Or being able to eat 'half' of a burst rotation and having somebody dive in at you THEN hitting 4. You can't depend on that anymore, you're liable to randomly die in 0.25 seconds before you can react and activate it, and activating it too early means they hop with League Of Mobility out of the ult.

Generally, the more damage creep we see, the more Morgana is forced into her backline artillery/peel role. At least when she can't flash in and kill people with the first half of R, but that's not flash "zhoynas", really.

Dolasaur8 votes

They're aware that upfront damage is higher now in the past, and they're actively working to address that.

They also mentioned (I think in a Meddler Gameplay Thoughts post) that champion kit damage is not significantly different from the past, and I'm inclined to agree.

Zed did not do 500 with one button press with those items; level 9 Q does 220 plus 0.9 bonus AD. Even if you had 0 effective armor, he would have needed like 270 bonus AD. So he used his W as well.

A level 9 midlaner doing 500 damage using two abilities has been kosher for a very long time. For example, Orianna with W max at 9 does 330 + 1.2 AP damage with QW. With 2200 gold in offensive items, that would have been doing ~450 damage since season 2. (W max was common at some points in the past.) Anivia QE at 9 does 470 + 1.9 AP now, and that damaged is lower than it was in season 2.

Hibeki5 votes

Its not just damage. Its the amount of non-versatility in build paths. Its the amount of uncounterable CC. Its the amount of true damage. Its more than just damage.

Ayzev4 votes

{quoted}

Halt all champion updates and new champions until you address the problem.

I'm pretty sure champion updates and balance aren't done by the same people.

Hibeki3 votes

No but its still a diversion of resources.

Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votes

Resources aren't distributed that way.

The skins team, Balance team and champion team don't all pull from the same sourcing pool.

They are all allocated individual budgets, plans and criteria that they must individually manage.

It's not like "Oh we reworked Nunu so we can't make a new ____ skin now." as well as it isn't "Oh Akali got reworked so now we can't nerf Skarner/Galio/Tahm Kench etc."

Different aspects get passed down, I.e Champions are balanced by the champion team for the first 2 weeks of release before being handed down to the Balance team.

The Engineering team deals with clarity issues in skins post release etc.

The teams interact but they all pull from different places.

Ulquiorra01234 votes

This is always a problem, because we can't see the gamestate. It is highly likely that this guy had more farm than you, and he backed and you did not. Either that or he has a kill. Level 7 with components for duskblade is pretty damn strong if you ask me. He landed everything in his kit which is almost always enough to kill you.

This is my problem with posts like this, you make it sound so bad, but don't show the actual gamestate. You just show a death recap that means absolutely nothing without understanding what is happening ingame. For all we know you are down 2 levels. For all we know he had engaged you prior with ulti and didn't kill you and you were stupid enough to show up in lane and get hit by everything again. There are so many things that we need to know before addressing if a champion is too strong.

1sst Time Zed3 votes

It's not a single ability press genius, it's hitting you with double shurikens, that that is more than half of his energy bar 70% of his combo early. Yeah it's an example, but it's a careless, incorrect example. It's quite well known riot is overloading the game with damage. Watch some old pro games vs current ones. Watch how long skirmishes in fights last for. At least the game is more even now and it's likely riot will fix the issue in time like they have many large scale issues.

Hibeki2 votes

Its an example of an assassin having many things they dont need to have.

In that combo:

Its ranged Has no commitment unless he wants to, Slows to prevent counterattack Does the majority of your health bar Is waveclear has short cooldowns for immediate followup if needed and manaless.

SedentaryCobra1 votes

And yet, Zed has

-no hard CC, and weak soft CC -very low health -no way to mitigate damage -0 sustain -long cooldowns on his full rotation (his shadow is 22 seconds unless he hits his E) -entirely reliant on his ult unless he can generate a strong lead -abysmal pre-6 -has a painfully telegraphed all-in without R

Complaining about his damage is a moot point, because most assassins can one shot in a single rotation, and have been able to do so for a long time. Zed's biggest weakness is his pre-6, where any champion with a ranged poke ability forces him out of lane. He falls off like a stone the moment teamfights start unless he's fed off his butt.

And you're complaining about how overloaded his kit is when you die to him when he's hitting his powerspike, you eat his entire combo, and you're playing someone he naturally counters. He's sitting on a 49% winrate for a reason. He's not good.

If you want to pick an example of 'overwhelming offense', pick something that makes sense. Don't pick on assassins because they have the kit of an assassin.

Hibeki1 votes

Untargetability, Slows, and Dashes are all ways to mitigate, prevent, and avoid damage. Just because you dnot have shields or heals does not men you arent avoiding damage.

22 seconds is not long when that combo forces your opponent out of lane. It means you get a use every wave and if youre good push your lane by killing their minions and all in your opponent at the same time. This is not a weakness.

His all in is not telegraphed, In less than 200 milliseconds you can WQEW Auto, while being in melee range for followup.

Zed's pre 6 is some of the best in the game solely because of this combo. While talon has a good level 2 spike zed can almost match it while having greater waveclear and mobility.

Most assassins can in a single rotation. In a greater timeframe, lower range, actually using a mana pool. Even talon with just WQ and passive proc and duskblade cannot do as much damage as Zed.

Zed at level 7 Does 8% max health damage, Two shurikens for 180 + 90% x2 damage, 70 + 80%. Assuming the target has 1k hp at level 7, thats about 80 damage on passive.

For a total of 430 + 260% bAD

Talon at level 7 Does 135 + 200% with passive IF you hand both W, with 65 + 110% bAD on Q and 200 + 100% bAD on W hitting both times.

For a total of 410 + 410% bAD

So while Talon does do more % bonus AD, he has significantly more delay nd counterplay with the majority of his damage relying on a double hit (Double shuriken hit is not the same as a double rake hit. Double rake has a delay and can easily be moved out of, and if you miss the second hit you lose significantly more damage than just losing the first) lower range, lower waveclear, and a DOT. Not to mention talon has to END his combo with an auto to proc that bleed. which against most mobility is not as easy as it sounds.

Zed's shadow range is 650, already longer than Talon's Q not counting the extra range on shurikens.

You are objectively wrong.

SedentaryCobra1 votes

A combo with only one way to actually perform it is telegraphed, even if it's quick.

His 'force-you-out-of-lane' combo means nothing if you force him to use it as defensive mobility.

His slow doesn't really mitigate damage, particularly when most of his matchups in midlane are ranged anyway.

He doesn't get his untargetable until 6.

And you assume his combo will always hit every ability every time. Standing 700 or so away when he has shadow up will allow you more than enough time to dodge Zed Prime's shuriken, and not get hit by the E. If you actually full body the combo because you're unable to respect him as a mage, you deserve to be forced out of lane. Sure, Zed threatens a large zone with his shadow, but it has a big cooldown, but you're not hitting 100% of the combo 100% of the time, and once it's down, you have no mobility, and you've lost your ability to engage.

In comparison to Talon, you also ignore some tradeoffs. Talon lacks the mobility inside the lane, but more than makes up for it with parkour outside. He also has less punishing mobility, which can actually be used defensively with little cost, on top of it being sustain. And Talon, despite being the worse champion, in your eyes, has a higher winrate, though they are honestly pretty equal in power.

If I may be so bold to ask you this instead, why is Zed not smashing ranked soloq right now? His winrate is negative in almost every elo in NA, and doesn't even spike to 51%. Why is Zed so problematic, when he obviously isn't that powerful? Where is his actual weakness, for this apparently unstoppable oppression?

Hibeki1 votes

You dont know what the word telegraph means.

SedentaryCobra1 votes

I used the word 'telegraphed' to refer to the fact that what he is going to do and when he is going to do it is incredibly obvious and linear. He has very few options on how to get on top of someone whilst maximizing his damage. As you said, WQE is his basic pattern, with possible extension of W AA. Until he has access to his ult or multiple shadows at higher levels, the way Zed will trade and attack if you know his cooldowns is excruciatingly obvious.

Would you prefer the word 'choreographed'? Or is there something better than telegraphed I should be using for his painfully narrow and predictable options in early attack and trading pattern?

Also, I would really like my questions answered this time. Why is Zed not smashing ranked soloq right now? His winrate is negative in almost every elo in NA, and doesn't even spike to 51%. Why is Zed so problematic, when he obviously isn't that powerful? Where is his actual weakness, for this apparently unstoppable oppression?

Hibeki1 votes

That is not telegraph. A telegraph is an action taken when doing a move to indicate what your move will be, enough so to take action to avoid it. A telegraph would be Vi's Q. a 200ms combo does not have telegraphs. Walking at someone does not indicate a combo, as you can just not cast the combo.

A zed cannot be pressured out of a lane outside of an all-in kill. His waveclear and ranged farm is so strong he is capable of playing defensively while still keeping up.

Zed is smashing every elo, Until this very patch his winrate was consistently 50%+, with no changes to zed or the items he uses this is purely coincidence. A supposedly high skill champion having 50% winrate is an indication they are far too strong in a game that has 80% bronze and silver players (another suspicious point in itself but i wont address it here) shows either

A) Zed players are full of themselves thinking the champ is hard at all

or B) The champion has too many strengths to make up for the high skill floor.

Either of these suggest the champion is far stronger than he needs to be.

SedentaryCobra1 votes

His actions are extremely straightforward and obvious to read. He has W up. He's positioning forward. I wonder what he's going to try to do??? Sounds telegraphed to me. There are other cues you can use to tell what someone is going to do other than a channel. And in Zed's case? It's painfully obvious, and his options are painfully limited.

Pushing him out of lane is easy pre 6. He has no sustain outside of potions. A decent poke mage with range can whittle him down enough before the first back to prevent an all it. Alternatively, zed can use his mobility defensively, which literal

And Zed is literally 50% winrate at each elo. Bronze players, plat+, doesn't matter. He still sub 50% just about everywhere. In NA he is sub 50% in all elo. The fact that the champion is literally 50% winrate, matched against equal skill players, shows he's pretty balanced.

1sst Time Zed1 votes

{quoted}

Its an example of an assassin having many things they dont need to have.

In that combo:

Its ranged Has no commitment unless he wants to, Slows to prevent counterattack Does the majority of your health bar Is waveclear has short cooldowns for immediate followup if needed and manaless.

There are clear ways to counter a zed and its on you for not learning how to play against a champion in the game. Riot does not cater the game to you and most people beyond bronze can play against a zed. Whether they win or not is up to the skill of the players usually.

Zullar3 votes

-Mobility is out of control. You can no longer position well. -Damage is out of control. Most champs can 1shot eachother. -Snowball out of control. Elemental dragons are the worst offender. Who wants to play against a team that has 16% AD/AP and you can never catch up? Just ff/int/AFK.

GodlyBane2 votes

"zed is bad and has low damage in this stupid meta! ugh riot messed up zed so badly, they ONLY buffed him 4 times in a row this year! OMFG!"

SedentaryCobra2 votes

I clicked on this thread thinking that it was about the general state of the meta, and definitely agreed with the title. I really didnt agree with the contents, which seemed more like complaining about assassins than anything else. Personally, I think Riot has been doing the opposite of "buffing things to match it's power", and has instead been nerfing things in a very unintuitive way, particularly when it comes to major changes.

Crit ADCs too powerful? Nerfs and item changes. Gold funneling too much? Direct nerf to gold generation when farming lanes. Jungle paths too regular and too fast? Rework the jungle, and make it more difficult.

I don't even think your example is even that good. Zed did 500 damage by hitting TWO shurikens using his shadow, plus the rest of his combo to finish you off. Is he strong? Sure, when he's able to do what he wants. Zed's currently sitting on a sub 50% winrate in pretty much all divisions, and remains a fairly popular champion. Pretty balanced. Zed's counterplay comes from zoning early, playing cautious later, itemization, and support from your team. He's not some insane, counterless champion, and while yes, one of his hardest counters is fairly uninteractive, he's not some completely balanceless, uninteractive champion.

Ignite was buffed in 8.6 as a response to the prevalence of mages in midlane who would farm for ages, were unresponsive to poke, and difficult to touch by assassins. Teleport, ghost, and heal were used more over ignite. In response, ignite was buffed, heal was nerfed, and several assassin items were buffed, and mage items took a MASSIVE hit. Now ignite is more prevalent, taken more often in botlane, with reasonable frequency in top, and often in mid. But teleport is being seen used in more places, barrier is cropping back up, and responses are developing naturally.

You will always have a meta of things that are powerful, a meta of things that need to be nerfed, and a collection of things that will need to be buffed. It's inherent in playing a competitive, asymmetrical game like league.

...That being said, I agree with the title of your post.

I think league is really lacking in counterplay due to the direction things are currently moving, how Time-To-Kill is growing shorter and shorter with each season, it seems. Every champion that is released or reworked seems to become faster moving and harder hitting, most of them becoming absolute monsters within a few patches of release once people figure out how to play it.

Irelia rework, Aatrox rework, Swain rework. All got buffs, extra CC, became more mobile, and were prevalent in the meta, at least for a few patches.

Look at the champions released. Kled, Pyke, Camille, Kayn, Zoe, Taliyah. The last "True Tank" they really released was Ornn. Before that? Tahm Kench

Riot has been releasing more crazy champions, with more "riven-like" kits with each release and each rework. Kits that are hard diving, fast moving, high damage. They're fun to play, and fun to watch, but not really fun to play against.

That type of kit, the 'overwhelming offense' is what I think is killing counterplay. Most of these champions jump on top of you and kill you in one rotation, and they're everywhere in the meta right now. They're hard to peel, hard to shoot at, and hard to survive. Riot has begun to bring them into line and tone them down, but this overall trend towards high TTK combined with CC and mobility is unsettling, and hard to play against. I can deal with a Zed. CC him in a teamfight, and he dies instantly. I have problems with things like Irelia (at least, when she was strong.) Stuns your entire team, kills two, gets CC'd, loses only half her health, and kills one more before finally dying. Or when Zoe would sleep a champion, only to seconds later to nearly one shot the tank who was bodyblocking.

To me, the concept of no counterplay really emerges when I simply don't have options. There are simply things in the game that you can't fight, can't run from, can't itemize against, can't play around, and those to me are the uninteractive, broken champs. A mage and a CC support could take on a Zed. A mage and a CC support will lose hard to your Camilles, your Kleds, your Udyrs, and champion of the same vein. They tank the burst and CC, then charge through and beat down both the mage and support. Itemization doesn't help, they have few hard counters, and can both lock you down and one shot you. This combo of good CC, good damage, good mobility, and good durability is really hard to counter and hard to play against. But, again, I think Riot's starting to bring it inline.

I really think we just need more options. Several new tank items, a mage item or two to help things along, and maybe some buffs to ADCs too. A new shutdown, lockdown oriented champion or two with good CC would be nice also.

In the end though, I still agree with what you have to say. There's too much damage. Too much offense. Not enough counterplay.

Nausicäa 2 votes

OP I dont think that the balance team is just power creeping everything but...

The problem is that Riot balances this game for Pro play. This is an issue because things that are good in Solo Q arent often good in Pro play and vice versa. Zed is not picked in pro play but is arguably overpowered in Solo Q depending on elo. For this reason they dont want to nerf champions like Zed, because if the goal is to have most champions in viable in Pro play then any nerf to him would ensure he is never selected in Pro play.

That is the fundamental problem with this game, that Riot caters to the sub 1% of players engaged in Pro play at the expense of the other 99.99% of 'casual' players.

Leetri1 votes

It's strange how the boards say that Riot balances for pro play but the pros say Riot balance for low Elo.

SMOKE THIS2 votes

[deleted]

KmSneaky1 votes

Or at least have its cd back to 90sec, not 120 :( having some of the most popular assassins able to ult 3-4 times before you get your zhonya's cd back is just stupid and makes the item even less gold-efficient.

Tesladin1 votes

But it's just ... tons of damage

VoraciousX1 votes

The thing is you're talking like Zhonya's has been buffed. Zhonya's has been nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed, into the ground. It's 96% cost efficient right now. It's had it's AP lowered, it's armor lowered, active increased, cost increased, etc. ALL because of it's passive. The only reason people even buy it is for the passive now. Starting to think I should just buy stopwatches but if I did that then I'd be wasting money because eventually I'd be full build.

Hibeki1 votes

Yeah its broken BECAUSE of hte passive. That passivE CANNOT EXIST and not be cancer.

VoraciousX1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah its broken BECAUSE of hte passive. That passivE CANNOT EXIST and not be cancer.

My point is that zhonya's has been nerfed, not buffed. It's been nerfed so many times it's not even a real item anymore. So your argument kinda falls apart. They've never buffed Zhonya's.

Kyunsei1 votes

It's not buff to weak champion that brought this much damage into the game, but new item and new runes.

New runes + AD compensation and removal of 12 MR to everyone, made all damage over the board higher.

ThunderSkelett1 votes

There is no way one singel shuriken does 500 damage you where hit by atleast two stop the bullshit

Hibeki1 votes

Ooooo two shurikens? that would mean something if with ult he had to land ANY

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