@Meddler -If- Grievous Wounds will be reverted back to its original functionality...

Krys Star·Apr 13, 2016·10 votes·4,266 views

will Soraka receive any compensation buffs, or possible revert to her nerfs? The only reason Soraka's been so out of hand is due to Grievous Wounds no longer affecting her healing for her allies, and Windspeaker Blessing adding to this frustration. As such, Soraka has received nerfs after nerfs. A lot of them, but they make sense due to how Grievous Wounds functions now. There's no possible way of making Soraka healthy without Grievous Wounds to put her in check.

If Grievous Wounds does go back to its old functionality, however, Soraka will feel HORRIBLE to play as. The HoT provided by Starcall will be minimal, her nerfed heals will be much weaker, and her ult will be shut down since Wish no longer removes Grievous Wounds beforehand being applied. I love Soraka a lot, and I miss playing her to my heart's content. Now she's always banned, for 7 months, and I hope you guys revert Grievous Wounds for the sake of game health and Soraka being balanced.

28 Comments

RiotMeddlerApr 13, 201611 votes

She might, not at the same time the reversion goes out though (it's looking very likely at this point we'll go with that change). We'll want to see how hard GW hits her before acting, particularly given she's been pretty hard to deal with for a while now. One possible candidate would be the return of her ult removing GW, though would also want to look at other possible options too.

Krys StarApr 13, 20161 votes

With how easy it is to access Grievous Wounds now, you could have Wish remove Grievous Wounds, while preventing any further Grievous Wounds from affecting allies for (x) seconds, perhaps? Will the reversion still be aimed for Mid Year Mage Update, or sooner? I'm hoping sooner, but I doubt it.

Also, is there no possible way that Starcall will lose its 15% movement speed? Maybe I'm selfish and the only one here, but I was really excited and would much, much rather it restore mana instead of granting movement speed after applying a powerful slow.

NetherlifeApr 13, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frozen Sovereign,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iE8Gjkmu,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-04-13T09:05:49.906+0000)

With how easy it is to access Grievous Wounds now, you could have Wish remove Grievous Wounds, while preventing any further Grievous Wounds from affecting allies for (x) seconds, perhaps? Will the reversion still be aimed for Mid Year Mage Update, or sooner? I'm hoping sooner, but I doubt it.

Also, is there no possible way that Starcall will lose its 15% movement speed? Maybe I'm selfish and the only one here, but I was really excited and would much, much rather it restore mana instead of granting movement speed after applying a powerful slow.

What do you think of my balancing ideas?

Krys StarApr 13, 20161 votes

The idea for Wish applying Rejuvenation is neat. I like it a lot. But Rejuvenation making targets immune to GW for the duration would be too powerful. It'd defeat the purpose of buying Executioner's Calling, Mortal Reminder, Morello's, and taking Ignite, when she can allow targets to be immune and constantly refresh the immunity should she continue to land Starcall. Which would not only empower her healing, but also empower her ally's self-healing, be it their own kit, Bloodthirster, Heal, etc.

NetherlifeApr 13, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frozen Sovereign,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iE8Gjkmu,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-13T09:41:36.191+0000)

The idea for Wish applying Rejuvenation is neat. I like it a lot. But Rejuvenation making targets immune to GW for the duration would be too powerful. It'd defeat the purpose of buying Executioner's Calling, Mortal Reminder, Morello's, and taking Ignite, when she can allow targets to be immune and constantly refresh the immunity should she continue to land Starcall. Which would not only empower her healing, but also empower her ally's self-healing, be it their own kit, Bloodthirster, Heal, etc.

Well think about it, it can only be applied to one target at a time. Keeping that in mind, lets look at Bronze and Silver players, a Soraka player at this tier will not be utilizing Rejuvenation effectively. At the same time, no one would be buying Executioners calling anyway, they didn't before and they won't now. So this effect on the majority of the games population would be balanced and in the majority of cases, just downright useless. However, a player that knows how to utilize an Executioners, or Morello would be displaying a level of knowledge higher than average player. On the same coin a Soraka player knowing how to minimize the effectiveness of GW would be showing qualities of higher elo play.

Now looking at Gold to Plat, you can expect people to be purchasing GW consistently, you can also expect that a Soraka player will be able to position well, and manage her Rejuvenation heals better. Also keep in mind that Rejuvenation only lasts for 4 seconds, and Mortal Reminder applies it for 5 seconds. Treating it as immunity to the effect of GW, not the application, if Soraka were to change her healing focus, it would leave an ally vulnerable. Which in turn could give the enemy team opportunities to take advantage of a Soraka changing targets. Or missing a Starfall (Q) as she won't be pumping out any Rejuvenation heals for at most 5 seconds. Also, since her healing is focused more on Rejuv, it will require Soraka to build more AP than she needs to currently, since her base scaling on heals won't be as high/bursty with minimal AP. Forcing her to delay tanky items, and in general be less tanky. And this will become one of her weaknesses as being less tanky will leave her more open to being dove and killed. A tactic that higher elo players are proficient at.

Also, GW immunity does NOT prevent someone from being bursted, and with Rejuv focused healing, a Soraka would not be able to out heal, say, an assassin's burst on their ADC.

tl;dr Soraka's balance will be determined at each level of elo. Bronze players that don't manage Rejuvenation well, can still do fine as it is less likely to be a mistake that the enemy will capitalize on, where counter-play would be GW. Diamond players however, will be able to capitalize on and take advantage of Soraka's mistakes, making counter-play advantageous, or focusing the Soraka. Forcing the Soraka player to manage her Rejuvenation correctly, as well as knowing which ally will need the GW immunity, while keeping herself at a safe distance. This creates a skill curve that follows the progression of skill within the game, which create an exceedingly well balanced champion. An example of this would be Azir, or Kindred. :)

DessemApr 13, 20161 votes

I prefer the 15% movement speed, since it helps me trade better and provides peel for the ADC whenever I heal them in the form of movement speed... and I already slowed the enemies.

Krys StarApr 13, 20161 votes

I don't like it much personally, because it encourages Soraka to interact with the enemy team less. Riot wants her to take risks to get out as much healing as possible, but when she gets sped up, she reduces any chances of counteracting. Which in turn, only creates a more frustrating experience for her enemies when she's already able to provide powerful heals and slows, with the occasional well-timed Equinox shutting out opportunities.

Also because I miss Infuse from her old kit, that I wish Rejuvenation restored mana as it previously did in 6.4 cycle. :)

lildyoApr 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

She might, not at the same time the reversion goes out though (it's looking very likely at this point we'll go with that change). We'll want to see how hard GW hits her before acting, particularly given she's been pretty hard to deal with for a while now. One possible candidate would be the return of her ult removing GW, though would also want to look at other possible options too.

Honestly, I think if you made it so Wish once again removes GW you won't need to give Soraka compensation buffs. For the most part people don't have access to GW until mid-late game except in a few circumstances anyways (ignite, or the few abilities that apply GW). Soraka's still going to be pumping out decent heals for much of the game

NetherlifeApr 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

She might, not at the same time the reversion goes out though (it's looking very likely at this point we'll go with that change). We'll want to see how hard GW hits her before acting, particularly given she's been pretty hard to deal with for a while now. One possible candidate would be the return of her ult removing GW, though would also want to look at other possible options too.

I believe that the 40% healing reduction from GW will be very balanced should it revert to affecting all heals no matter the source. However. I think with the return of GW cleanse from her ultimate, and implementing a few of my ideas might help create a balanced state of play for her.

My ideas are the following;

Buffing her rejuvenation mechanic while slightly reducing base healing from her Astral Infusion (W).
If she heals a target while she has rejuvenation, it not only applies the HoT (Heal over Time) effect to the healed target, but also makes them immune to GW for the duration of the rejuvenation (only applicable to Rejuvenation applied with Astral Infusion (W) and limited to one target at a time).
In addition to giving her ultimate GW cleanse, you may consider giving her ultimate 20-25% higher base heal, and replace the increased heal for being under 40% health with a Rejuvenation effect to all allies healed under 40% health.

Shifting focus towards her Rejuvenation mechanic, takes the focus away some of the burst healing that has been making Soraka such a large issue. Turning her into a more sustain oriented healer. In affect, by applying immunity to grievous wounds to, say an ADC with lifesteal, the lack of burst healing from her kit would not mean that crucial targets couldn't heal themselves with her extra indirect sustain utility.
Also, by adding more focus to her rejuvenation mechanic, it creates a complexity within her kit/design, that would separate mediocre Soraka players from great ones. Creating a curve that would self-balance her throughout multiple different levels of elo.

cystiumApr 13, 20167 votes

What about other healers like Nami, Sona etc?

Old Grievous wounds making a comeback would be a significant blow to these champion's as well, yet none of the other healers are doing amazingly well to warrant the nerf. Are you looking at some compensation for them or will they continue to pay taxes for soraka's hard to balance healing output?

QuephaApr 13, 20163 votes

{quoted}

What about other healers like Nami, Sona etc?

Old Grievous wounds making a comeback would be a significant blow to these champion's as well, yet none of the other healers are doing amazingly well to warrant the nerf. Are you looking at some compensation for them or will they continue to pay taxes for soraka's hard to balance healing output?

Sona and Nami are both doing well and heals are a small part of their kit, I don't think anyone bothered to build grievous wounds items against those champions unless there was also a Mundo on their team.

cystiumApr 13, 20161 votes

I would not call it small, it's a integral part of their kit and they wouldn't feel the same without it. Alistar would qualify as having a small heal.

I think you are forgetting champion skills and ignite also apply GW, in addition the AP version (morello) is often build regardless of the need for GW, that's just icing on the cake. which leaves executioners calling as the only item people would have to build specifically to apply GW. 800G seems like a bargain for 40% reduced healing

for example: Nami heals for 185 with lvl 5 ebb and flow. for 800G you can reduce that by 185x0.4=74. In comparison: If nami wants to increase her heal by 74 she needs to aquire 74/0.3=247AP which equals about 247x21.75=5372.25 Gold

QuephaApr 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I would not call it small, it's a integral part of their kit and they wouldn't feel the same without it. Alistar would qualify as having a small heal.

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Support&sortBy=general.totalHeal&order=descend

Alistar ends up performing about 80% of the healing that Nami does in a match and 85% of what a Sona heals on average.

If a player were to spend that gold on AD instead they would end up with about +22 AD, which easily takes 74 health off of their target with 4 auto attacks (and that assumes no multipliers due to crit), which is very reasonable over the cooldown of Nami's Ebb and Flow. It's true that Morellonomicon has grievous wounds in addition to being cost efficient without it, but that also requires spellcasts and the target being below 40% health, highly more conditional than a simple auto attack on a champion built to maximize the power and speed of their auto attacks.

I don't think executioner's calling is a good purchase if Nami is the only source of healing on the enemy team.

CosnirakApr 14, 20163 votes

Those numbers include Alistar's healing of minions though don't they? I'm not quite 100% sure but I think they do. To the best of my knowledge, Alistar's actual healing of champions is pretty mediocre, especially from his E (he heals people in part with Spoils of War procs like any other melee support).

cystiumApr 14, 20161 votes

All those numbers are a bit misleading and include a large amount of self healing etc... (notice how trundle outheals sona despite having no allied heal whatsoever)

considering executioners calling also adds 15AD your only sacrificing 7AD for GW not 22.

so 7AD sustained dmg VS essentially 74 burst dmg every 10 - 5.5 seconds (depending on nami's CDR) And this is neglecting any of the selfhealing / lifesteal you take away from the target on top of that.

xBushxApr 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

She might, not at the same time the reversion goes out though (it's looking very likely at this point we'll go with that change). We'll want to see how hard GW hits her before acting, particularly given she's been pretty hard to deal with for a while now. One possible candidate would be the return of her ult removing GW, though would also want to look at other possible options too.

I'm with you Med.

Adding back the removal of GW to her Ult.

And maybe a SMALL numbers boost to the HP regen transfer effect would be enough to give her and other counterplay around GW.

RocketRelmApr 13, 20161 votes

Is there a reason you couldn't have both versions of Grievous Wounds in the game? Removing the "we must make all Grievous Wounds X OR Y" would allow you to tune a specific set of "anti-healer" items or abilities, while also separately balancing the "Mundo Slayer" items and abilities.

You might need to rename one of the two versions of Grievous Wounds, but I think it could work.

SuperLuigiLXIVApr 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

She might, not at the same time the reversion goes out though (it's looking very likely at this point we'll go with that change). We'll want to see how hard GW hits her before acting, particularly given she's been pretty hard to deal with for a while now. One possible candidate would be the return of her ult removing GW, though would also want to look at other possible options too.

You could make her healing spell range super low so she has to run up to someone to heal them.

It's honestly not the healing itself that's the problem, it's Soraka's safety while healing. The inability to even get to her to stop her because you can't break her tank line, which you only can't break because she's spamming heals, which you can't stop because the tank line is in your way...but if she has to stand on the front lines to keep the front lines up, then it becomes a real battle of positioning. And I know you guys like that.

AMYS GRAVEApr 13, 20162 votes

She was only reworked because of grievous wounds, i don't understand what you want to see given that we have already seen how soraka performs with grievous wounds in the game.

exe3Apr 13, 20161 votes

Any chance you would revert the Q changes if needed? Those whacky changes don't seem to have hit her winrate much at all while chunking a good bit of her satisfaction from Q heals. Personally I think she only needed some number nerfs, the base heal was a bit high for how often she could throw it around that's all imo (also wish her passive had a range that was meaningful, by the time you're close enough for it to activate you're practically in heal range already :( also if possible could you make the range appear on minimap?).

Cael PrimeApr 14, 20161 votes

@Meddler

Dear Meddler,

Because of the nerfs Soraka has received over the past several months if Riot reverts the change to Grievous Wounds not only will Ignite make her a free kill in lane but there is also Executioners Calling and Mortal Reminder that will make Soraka useless into the late game. A simple auto attack will keep the debuff on everyone. This will reduce a single champions overall effectiveness by 40% on top of the many nerfs over the past several months.

Most people agree Soraka was in a good spot before the Grievous Wounds change. Below or around 50% win rate. This is because I feel ignite (GW) alone and her old kit from a year ago were balanced because there was counter play.

I understand why Riot would nerf and rework her to such an extent due to the Grievous Wounds change. I dont understand why Riot would then revert the change several months later but not revert the numerous nerfs that were because of the change in the first place.

I want Soraka to be balanced so I can play her again to my hearts content... but this feels like a bait and switch. I fear she will be in a very bad spot for a very long time and that's not healthy for the game either. It's also not fair to people who have been playing her for years, long before grievous wounds was changed.

Also, respectfully, hearing 'not at the same time the reversion goes out though' makes me very uneasy. I fear that means the change will go through, she will be in a terrible spot, and she will be totally forgotten.

Please dont forget about my banana unicorn queen and please revert some or all of the nerfs/changes if the grievous wounds change is indeed reverted. <3

Sincerely and thank you,

~ Cael

NetherlifeApr 13, 20162 votes

This is something I called a long time ago, when Riot started quietly removing Grevious Wounds (GW) from champions, beginning with champions like Tristana, then MF, Fizz, nerfing all GW healing reduction from 50% to 40% then completely removing Executioners Calling. I was complaining loudly to all my friends, how are we going to deal with Swain now? How are we going to deal with Soraka, Aatrox, Warwick, Fiddlesticks? Then when they realized their mistakes, they rushed Executioners back out in a half-assed fashion, with little planning it seems. And thus began the Soraka reign of terror. If I'm not mistaken there used to be 8 champions with healing reduction built into their kits, now there what TWO? Barely? It's not healthy for the game at all, and needs to be reverted.

(And for those that may say ignite. A lot of good a 3 minute cooldown does for us, when only one person has it SOMETIMES in this Teleport meta...)

Krys StarApr 13, 20162 votes

IIRC, the 40% healing reduction (changed to self-heal instead of all healing sources) was introduced in preseason, along with Windspeaker's Blessing and Executioner Calling's return. But yeah, I really hate it. I've mained Soraka for 6 years, since I started playing in mid 2010. She was my very first purchase, and my top 3 picks in each season. But now, I'm LUCKY if I get to pick her. For the past 7 months, I've had to pray she doesn't get banned, and be disappointed when she is. At one point, I was at -50 lp because this season is horrible, but playing Soraka still made it enjoyable.

I bought Program Soraka, and I really don't know why, since she's lawys banned. My money was wasted on a champion that Riot took 4 months to realize how to balance her. I just want to play Soraka again in peace, without having to pray she doesn't get banned.

Cael PrimeApr 14, 20161 votes

That's how I feel too. I have been playing her for years. She's my favorite! I just want to be able to play her again... but I dont want her to be totally broken or totally useless either.

Irelia BotApr 13, 20161 votes

They might buff her at some point but there is no point in making her excesively strong until it has been shown that GW in whatever form it is added is able to effectively counter her.

Krys StarApr 13, 20162 votes

Well, when they made changes to Grievous Wounds, Soraka's win rate went from 50% average to 53% respectively. Then the changes in 6.6 boosted her to 55%, and now she's sitting at 54%. It's safe to say Grievous Wounds did a good job of keeping her in line, before all her nerfs and changes.

Cael PrimeApr 14, 20161 votes

Yes, before the nerfs and changes. If they revert it now into the nerfed kit, she'll be useless.

Krys StarApr 14, 20162 votes

Exactly why I voiced she'd need compensation buffs. Allowing Wish to remove Grievous Wounds again would be a great start, and maybe Grievous Wounds immunity for like, 4 seconds.