As a player who mains support, I'm sick and tired of seeing...

Krys Star·Sep 10, 2015·149 votes·7,357 views

4 / 5 games that I play, I go bot. 5 / 5 games, Vayne is picked. This is getting very tiring and stale, whether I'm supporting her or against her. The fact that Riot refuses to address how powerful she is, and lacking weaknesses, is getting tiring too. Their dismissal of 'we never said' is a piss poor excuse. She needs to be toned down, and she needs to be toned down now. I don't watch tournaments at all, but I hear she's constantly picked there. FOR A REASON. Morello said so himself back in season 3: professional players will always pick and exploit bullshit champions.

Get rid of her flat true damage so she remains a tank buster, not an everything-buster, and lower her aspd per level. That's all you have to do to tone down her lane easiness and making her less of a super hyper unstoppable carry that she is now.

122 Comments

Maximum MordeSep 10, 201551 votes

Came expecting Thresh, got Vayne. Not disappointed.

manbearswineSep 10, 201511 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BnEXGAxM,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2015-09-10T13:26:36.620+0000)

Came expecting Thresh, got Vayne. Not disappointed.

I kinda am,yes vayne is very annoying and getting old,but at least she is on and off,thresh is an even bigger offender on this regard.

For years that shit has been the most popular support,YEARS,what the hell riot?

RikariSep 11, 20151 votes

If thresh is such a problem why doesn't he have a 50% winrate?

Maximum MordeSep 11, 20153 votes

{quoted}

If thresh is such a problem why doesn't he have a 50% winrate?

He does on people experienced with him, 51% in Plat+. He also has HUGE popularity. ~37% according to Champion.gg. That is absolutely enormous. He clearly takes some skill to actually play as his win rate increases as experience goes up and people on the lower end of experience drag the average win rate down to the 48-49% you see overall.

RozzetaSep 11, 20151 votes

If any support had that pick rate by the time Morello was still around, it would have been gutted mercilessly.

TenSlashTenSep 11, 20152 votes

gut him too.

disregardableSep 10, 20157 votes

I don't see her very often, really. I usully only see her when I'm teambuidler.

Lord AzırSep 10, 201533 votes

[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BnEXGAxM,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-09-10T08:19:52.997+0000)

I don't see her very often, really. I usully only see her when I'm teambuidler.

Must be because she has 13% ban rate. I personally see Vayne in at least 90% of my games same with Yasuo. The two champions are spammed so much. Hardly even want to play when it's like "oh another yasuo in the mid lane, another vayne in the bot lane". Not to mention Yasuo hard counters the only champs I love playing. Not fun times.

Only Play DariusSep 10, 20158 votes

Yasuo is as weak as he's ever been, he's always had a decent pick rate because he's incredibly fun to play. Have you ever played him?

NoMonkuSep 10, 201530 votes

Yasuo has an overloaded kit. He is downright OP if you can play him at the highest level and don't know how to play against him. Similar to Vayne that way.

RalanrSep 10, 201520 votes

Well you're going to have a tough time playing against anyone you don't know how to play against.

Rew711Sep 10, 20153 votes

Yasuo has a shield, stab (stab #3 is a gust of wind), a windwall, a dash (E+Q= spin, E+#3Q= knock-up spin), and a ultimate. The only thing I'd like to get rid of his his crit passive and move it to his Q so that he deals 60/70/80/90/100% of the crit damage. Its a nerf, I know, but I'm tired of everyone overlooking this simple fix.

Ryot NomadSep 10, 20152 votes

And you don't think this will make him bad?

If this happenes, Yasuo won't be able to burst people so mid lane would be out and almost every top laner just sh*ts on him. That would kinda take Yasuo out of the meta and that'd be a shame since he's one of the most fun champions in the game.

KeevalroySep 10, 20153 votes

That would kinda take Yasuo out of the meta and that'd be a shame since he's one of the most fun champions in the game.

And at the same time one of the most agonizing things to play against.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbSep 10, 20155 votes

I should note that his win rate is still below 50%. This would break him. His design is a failure as he's extremely proficiency dependent and having the right teammates can absolutely put him (even bad ones) over the edge. They should reduce the power for landing an ult, and make it a bit easier to land. This would make it so champs like malphite don't make him an auto win, let newer yasuos do alright, and reduce some of his power for experienced ones.

Diananmen SquareSep 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=hgjkdlsaf jeldvb,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BnEXGAxM,comment-id=000000000000000000010002,timestamp=2015-09-10T17:25:32.947+0000)

I should note that his win rate is still below 50%. This would break him. His design is a failure as he's extremely proficiency dependent and having the right teammates can absolutely put him (even bad ones) over the Infinity edge. They should reduce the power for landing an ult, and make it a bit easier to land. This would make it so champs like malphite don't make him an auto win, let newer yasuos do alright, and reduce some of his power for experienced ones.

Couldn't resist it.

RebonackSep 10, 20157 votes

I bet if Riot hadn't destroyed Bloodthirster and most of her counters this wouldn't be a problem.

RalanrSep 10, 20156 votes

I played a bot match with her. Holy hell is that passive broken. 8% of a targets health in true damage at max?

I like true damage, I don't see a problem with true damage (I see it with mostly Ults or Olaf's E and it works fine). Vayne abuses it.

I'd vote to change it to magic damage. But there's also the problem that it seems to be Vayne's only clear damage dealer in comparison to other ADCs.

Still think it should be magic damage or attack damage. Or change the percentage to be based on current health or health missing.

Baseball3bSep 10, 201510 votes

Anything is op in bot matches.

The whole issue with vayne right now is the fact that other adcs are undertuned which skews her power curve to make her stronger earlier.

Her true damage is fine, I don't have a problem with it. It's easily countered by item 3110 item 3143

Buff her counters slightly (Lucian, Caitlyn, Graves, etc) and if she's still too strong we can go from there.

RalanrSep 10, 20151 votes

Anything to do something to her. I don't think her current state can stay as is.

Baseball3bSep 10, 20152 votes

Yeah like I said I really think giving power back to other adcs is the way to start.

Vayne was relatively unchanged for quite a long time, so it's just a combination of the meta, itemization, popular champions and weakened lane-dominant adcs.

AnidanSep 10, 20153 votes

Her true damage is one of the worst 3-hit effects in the game.. it's literally only damage. It's not even the scariest steroid of the two she has.

I'm thinking people are really, really over-estimating the true damage she does at this point. And also, if you make her true damage Silver Bolts into magic or phyiscal damage, they will need numbers buffs.

Remember: You fear that 8% on the third hit, but Koggy does 6% maximum hp per hit with his W up because it's magic damage.

LankPantsSep 11, 20151 votes

Remember: You fear that 8% on the third hit, but Koggy does 6% maximum hp per hit with his W up because it's magic damage.

It's worth noting that a good portion of Kog's extra on hit damage is offset by the extra AD that Vayne gets from her ult.

With some funky maths I'd value the 70 ad at around 1.5% per hit (assuming 3k hp, 100 armour, 35% pen and no crit). This would mean against this target Vayne's kit would give 12.5% over 3 hits with partial true damage while Kog's gives 18% pure magic, which is then mitigated by what ever MR the target has.

There are other things at play though. For example a tank will often build heavy MR into Kog as well as AS slows, heavily reducing his damage while it's not as easy to reduce Vayne's damage at all.

And also, if you make her true damage Silver Bolts into magic or phyiscal damage, they will need numbers buffs.

I'd agree with this. Overall I think it would greatly help with Vayne's balance and frustration factors in the long run.

The way I'd like to see it be reworked is to 10/15/20/25/30 + (3/4/5/6/7%) Physical and Magical damage. (as in it would deal twice as much raw damage as shown) This kind of keeps with being hard to build against as it is at the moment, but allows tanks to actually build something into Vayne.

And yes, this number is lower per hit than Kog W, but it's also a permanent passive that you never need to spend any mana on and that you can use two of your other spells to proc.

Call A DrSep 11, 20151 votes

True damage is stupid, we should just stick to physics, and keep damage that exists, not make up some whole new damage attribute, it was obvious why they gave champions true damage, they ran out of ideas, and some people follow true damage characters, as they do have advantage, damage, that you can't defend from, it's a stupid idea.

Baron PerenoldeSep 10, 20155 votes

I'm pretty sick of her too, honestly. Honorable mention to Thresh as well.

TecniacSep 10, 20154 votes

Euw yoloq:

https://i.imgflip.com/qu92e.jpg

Jungle, top, or bot... who cares, just vayne, can be wreck´d 10 times, she will punch you with her 23 cm true damage bolt with 2 items.

""Skill""

goldensilver09Sep 10, 20153 votes

Well, she is free this week, no wonder why you see her that often :P

But agree, as a person who enjoy playing Supp, it's getting old see vayne in 4-6 of every 10 games.

MLDzXnRRRSep 10, 20153 votes

I often see 2 Vaynes in Normal Blind pick, RITO PLS!!!

gIKSvtuLV5Sep 10, 20153 votes

Just remember, Olaf will kill her no matter what.

ReadyBotSep 10, 20153 votes

Vayne is super easy to shut down, if you play correctly. "Her mobility is high with Q!" - Her range is low. Poke her! "Her W scales sick!" - Why is she getting 3 hits on you without you hitting her back? "She's broken! Even a GM said so 2 seasons ago!" - The Meta shifts. She's a good tank killer, and tanks are strong now. Why would you not play a adc like that?

This is like the age old StarCraft statment: Nerf Protos! Carriers are OP! - Maybe do something before that super power spike?

galdameshSep 10, 20155 votes

the problem is it's not easy to shut her down anymore, sure if she q's to cs, or harass you you can poke her, but all she has to do to win lane is not die, since in this meta she will be the biggest threat regardless.

outfarm isn't an option since she will outscale, with less money, %80 of adc's.

her "late game power spike" comes at 1 item and lvl 6.

and the aa q aa e proccing silver bots means she can even win trades against half the adc's now at lvl 3.

it's not so much a problem of her being strong, as it is the people who kept her in check being too weak to do so now

TheI3igDaddySep 10, 20152 votes

The cynical side of me thinks they're ignoring her state of balance for Worlds. She's a flashy champ that can make teamfights very interesting in organized play.

SteelStallionSep 10, 20152 votes

I've never had that much trouble against Vayne, myself. And I haven't seen Vayne picked every competitive match, either. I see Corki, Tristana, Varus and Sivir more often than I see Vayne.

Vayne's a little strong but people blow it out of proportion.

Maximum ZileanSep 10, 20152 votes

I kinda agree, Vayne is just stupid right now.

Vayne But muh earli game is horrible...

Suddenly the support picks Braum or Janna and its impossible to punish that early game.

DengedenSep 10, 20151 votes

Suddenly the support picks or and its impossible to punish that early game.

As someone who loves playing Janna, I'm insulted and I know that Braum is way more aggressive than her.

DokiDokiTodorokiSep 10, 20151 votes

I think they mean that the enemy support picks Braum/Janna... Respective king and queen of peeling. Supposedly it's hard to punish Vayne. Braum I understand but I usually try to focus down whoever Janna doesn't shield in lane.

DengedenSep 11, 20151 votes

Meanwhile Thresh QQ...

Braum and Janna aren't exactly immune to damage in lane, so there's this. Even if this brings up the age old question of late game vs early game, lane bullies vs team fighters, etc.

DengedenSep 10, 20152 votes

It's hardly Vayne's fault that the standard item 3031 ADCs are boring as fk.

AbyssphereSep 10, 20155 votes

{quoted}

It's hardly Vayne's fault that the standard ADCs are boring as fk.

Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people play Vayne just so they can get a break from the stale ADC build paths.

SaiannaSep 10, 20152 votes

Is Vayne played alot, cause she's (too) strong? Better nerf Evelynn. She's a pink cancer.

OperationDEEZ1Sep 11, 20151 votes

Nah, nerf Shaco instead.

TAHM CRUlSESep 11, 20152 votes

Please delete Teemo

Noctius28Sep 11, 20152 votes

I see Thresh and Lee Sin in all my games but for some reason no one complains about them...

Aych PiiSep 11, 20151 votes

Lee sin's not terribly strong right now and everybody's pretty well aware of it. He still gets played a decent amount because everybody got comfortable on him back when he was extremely good.

MalzaharAnyLaneSep 12, 20151 votes

He has the same kit problems as Vayne, and so does Thresh, is the point.

Claiming he 'isn't terribly strong' right after a buff for worlds in 5.16 is either careless or asinine.

Aych PiiSep 13, 20151 votes

Vayne and thresh have completely different problems; Vayne is only strong as long as she has strong numbers, as is the case for any carry. Same for Lee Sin, he's only going to be strong when he's doing a lot of damage in the early game. The meta didn't favor him for quite a while because he couldn't deal with tanks, and while that's still true, he is slightly better with the buffs and since all the pros are comfortable on him and he does have the benefit of decent utility, he will likely see a decent amount of play in worlds. But now that Warrior isn't the only jungle enchantment that isn't utter crap, he isn't terribly strong.

Edit: as a bit of data to back me up, champion.gg reports a 46% winrate on lee sin in plat+ elo this patch. Players that have played upward of 125 games on the champion reach winrates averaging as high as 48%.

EnderForHegemonSep 11, 20151 votes

Honestly players are spoiled as hell these days to be complaining about vayne as an overbearing champion who is 'super hyper unstoppable' ... Playing four years ago, or even just back in league of cleavers would have given you some perspective on the state of balance of the game today.

MalzaharAnyLaneSep 12, 20151 votes

League of Instagib Cleavers was still more entertaining than this, just saying.

OrmylarSep 11, 20151 votes

While I agree that Vayne is rather strong since a lot of her general counters got nerfed, there's still a good way to deal with her in lane. Shove her hard into the tower. Make sure you ward well and just keep pushing. If their jungler ends up babysitting bot, then top and mid are open for your jungle to camp. I notice a lot of people don't do this mainly because of overextending (which I understand). But with Vayne, just shove her hard. It will deny her so much early on that it will be easier for you to close the game out before you get to lategame. Just ward well so you reduce your chance of getting caught and dying.

MalzaharAnyLaneSep 12, 20151 votes

If my jungler camps top we just lost 4 dragons in the time it would take to take advantage of the top lane camp.

Dragon is anywhere from difficult to impossible to contest in this meta while behind.