Aatrox, an excue to make a new champion with flashy moves

DarkinPrime·Jun 13, 2018·13 votes·5,420 views

For the sake of things looking cool. Ya know, how RIVEN and Yas look cool and flashy with their moves?

They made Riven 2.0...why? We have champions that do all of those things. Name me one true sustain auto attacking champion? Aatrox was it. What? We can't have one? We can have a billion champs that can one shot enemies, insane damage everywhere, but somehow ONE champ like Aatrox is bad? His win rate was fine, many found him fun, he had definite strengths and weaknesses.

There was no need to take him in this direction. His ult is super cool, I will admit, but the rest...well, he looks like hes going to be a super cheese, annoying champion to play against. Slow, knock up, hook, repeat.

70 Comments

RiotBazerkaJun 13, 201814 votes

One could argue, all champions are excuses to make flashy moves :). And even go so far as to say, flashy moves are the reason why some champions are made x). I'd recommend trying him out a few times first to see how he turns out! Riven was made to engage the high skill expression players (people who play to show their mastery of something). If Aatrox is Riven 2.0 he could be really cool to engage those types of players!

Personally? Hes not really for me, just not my type of champ, but thats just me. I am definitely excited to see what he can do in the hands of players who do like him!

DarkinPrimeJun 13, 20184 votes

No, champions are made to create fun gameplay and synergistic strategies. Not flashy game plays.

I have played over 10,000 matches with Aatrox over many accounts over the years.

Not once were players like me ever asked about him. You guys just plowed ahead and deleted a champion completely.

SithesisLordJun 13, 20181 votes

Not once were players like me ever asked about him.

Players like you aren´t in the top 500, are they?

DarkinPrimeJun 13, 20186 votes

There was absolutely no reason to do what you did. None whatsoever. You took a champions identity, someone that players played and spend time with, and basically said F you to those players. Who did the rework?

RiotBazerkaJun 13, 20189 votes

{quoted}

There was absolutely no reason to do what you did. None whatsoever. You took a champions identity, someone that players played and spend time with, and basically said F you to those players. Who did the rework?

FWIW I'm pretty sure its safe to say that we did talk with quite a few Aatrox mains about the rework. Its always a part of our champ update process because we want to be hype considerate of what players loved about the old champ. However, I do also know there were several strong reasons for updating Aatrox (and all the other champs we do reworks on). We wouldn't rework a champ without those reasons.

Its cool to hear that you understand what the point of flashy mechanics are, which is to make fun and dynamic game play loops and interactions. I would still encourage you to try him out and see for yourself. If it does turn out that hes simply not as fun as the old Aatrox, definitely share some well thought out notes and feedback on why you think that way. That type of feedback is always highly valued with the design teams because there is something tangible to spring board design conversations.

Sorry you feel frustrated though :(. Its sad to see someone who is super passionate about a champ not hyped about a rework. I felt the same way about GP, but after playing the new one realized most of my anger was because I didn't want to learn something new. However, after getting used to the new barrel mechanics hes now one of my most beloved champs in the game. I don't mean to unseat your emotions, but to simply provide my own similar experience :). Gl friend.

Jericho AzariahJun 13, 20183 votes

[slayer-jinx-unamused] that is actually a lie, considering you guys looked at a roster chart of random individual and merely gave small amount of question.

RiotBazerkaJun 13, 201811 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jericho Azariah,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iBlkJks9,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2018-06-13T04:10:39.354+0000)

[slayer-jinx-unamused] that is actually a lie, considering you guys looked at a roster chart of random individual and merely gave small amount of question.

Similarly sry you feel that way :(

SinistraJun 13, 20182 votes

Now that is just sad, implying he just feels that way and you did everything you could to do a proper rework on aatrox. Askinkg aatrox mains is just a blatant lie, nobody would ask for turning his stoic war god into a sassy little girl with a mix of angry shouting german man who uses riven mechanics. You literally just ruined it's identity to fit with the other smug and edgy champions who are appealing for the younger generations.

EROTIC RAID BOSSJun 13, 20188 votes

the hard truth is no one liked the old aatrox, even though his theme is cool af. not only did he have gameplay health problems, but he was very unpopular and people felt he didn't deliver gameplay wise.

aatrox mains obviously feel different. or you wouldn't be an aatrox main. but no one else thought this was a good champion.

OneriosJun 13, 20181 votes

Careful with hard statements like "no one" and "all". I'm certainly not an aatrox main, and while the new champion's kit is interesting, and the current/old kit is a bit of a balance nightmare due to how stat-checkie it is, they could have kept it alongside the old personality at least to soften the blow slightly.

EROTIC RAID BOSSJun 13, 20183 votes

careful not to jerk off to semantic bullshit rather than engaging in the actual discussion

obviously there are some diehard aatrox fans. but his playrate and engagement was way lower than it should be considering he's a badass demon with a claymore

EROTIC RAID BOSSJun 13, 20182 votes

Hey Bazerka, just wondering since you suddenly appeared on the boards and posted like... a whole fuckin lot. What's your dealio, what do you work on, did you just join riot hence all the posts suddenly, or have you always been around and got really bored haha

RiotBazerkaJun 13, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=EROTIC RAID BOSS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iBlkJks9,comment-id=000000010000000000000001,timestamp=2018-06-13T14:02:35.891+0000)

Hey Bazerka, just wondering since you suddenly appeared on the boards and posted like... a whole fuckin lot. What's your dealio, what do you work on, did you just join riot hence all the posts suddenly, or have you always been around and got really bored haha

was more like I dislike silence that seemed to be happening on the forums. I def am not perfect, and the best I can offer many times is a "I'm sorry you feel that way" but a lot of times that is better than nothing.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 13, 20181 votes

FWIW I'm pretty sure its safe to say that we did talk with quite a few Aatrox mains about the rework.

So how did you come with his new voice lines ??? I won't talk about kit, cause its good. But i remember most Aatrox play spamming their fears about Aatrox not staying a calm bloothirster.

DarkinPrimeJun 13, 20181 votes

You guys literally promised to rework aatrox more consistent with his Lord which is somebody who is an elegant dueler and an inspirational leader. There are so many things you could have done with his old as far as some kind of tea malt benefit and there's so many things you could have done with his existing abilities in ways that would have made him more fun to play and less binary. It's just amazing to have all the possibilities you had you guys literally chose to do exactly the wrong thing on every level

SuperLuigiLXIVJun 13, 20181 votes

The issue I have isn't with his kit update. He needed that.

The issue is that he had a unique personality and that's been thrown out the window for a boisterous bruiser type attitude along the lines of Rhaast, Garen, Sion, Darius, etc.

We have a dozen or more champions like that. Meanwhile, the only really calm, stoic warriors we had were Aatrox, Leona, Shen, and Jax to an extent. And none of them pull off the "experienced war leader" the way Aatrox did. Jax is too interested in a challenge, Leona's too "get behind me" and Shen's too detached. Aatrox really did pull off being invested without being emotional about it very well.

Now that's gone.

Honestly, his new lines aren't the problem. The problem is the DELIVERY. If he just SOUNDED the way he did before, it would work, it would come across as "I know how to push your buttons" in the way he insults people. Instead he's just.....not remarkable or memorable. His personality isn't interesting or unique, and Riot HAD to know it was before.

I actually regret that his changed pushed him from GU to VGU now. If they hadn't, perhaps we wouldn't be losing the interesting voice for....this.

sKz Aaron DJun 13, 20181 votes

20 dashes on every new champion plus the ability to 100-0 people isn't being done for the player's enjoyment. It's being done to artificially make LCS look more interesting, since we all know the gameplay has been stale for years.

NemeBroJun 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

FWIW I'm pretty sure its safe to say that we did talk with quite a few Aatrox mains about the rework. Its always a part of our champ update process because we want to be hype considerate of what players loved about the old champ. However, I do also know there were several strong reasons for updating Aatrox (and all the other champs we do reworks on). We wouldn't rework a champ without those reasons.

Its cool to hear that you understand what the point of flashy mechanics are, which is to make fun and dynamic game play loops and interactions. I would still encourage you to try him out and see for yourself. If it does turn out that hes simply not as fun as the old Aatrox, definitely share some well thought out notes and feedback on why you think that way. That type of feedback is always highly valued with the design teams because there is something tangible to spring board design conversations.

Sorry you feel frustrated though :(. Its sad to see someone who is super passionate about a champ not hyped about a rework. I felt the same way about GP, but after playing the new one realized most of my anger was because I didn't want to learn something new. However, after getting used to the new barrel mechanics hes now one of my most beloved champs in the game. I don't mean to unseat your emotions, but to simply provide my own similar experience :). Gl friend.

So how do you justify changing his identity from a duelist to that of a supportive CC fighter who can't accomplish anything from close range because most of his damage and CC is gated behind longer-ranged sweetspots and long cooldowns?

Your DemonJun 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

FWIW I'm pretty sure its safe to say that we did talk with quite a few Aatrox mains about the rework. Its always a part of our champ update process because we want to be hype considerate of what players loved about the old champ. However, I do also know there were several strong reasons for updating Aatrox (and all the other champs we do reworks on). We wouldn't rework a champ without those reasons.

Its cool to hear that you understand what the point of flashy mechanics are, which is to make fun and dynamic game play loops and interactions. I would still encourage you to try him out and see for yourself. If it does turn out that hes simply not as fun as the old Aatrox, definitely share some well thought out notes and feedback on why you think that way. That type of feedback is always highly valued with the design teams because there is something tangible to spring board design conversations.

Sorry you feel frustrated though :(. Its sad to see someone who is super passionate about a champ not hyped about a rework. I felt the same way about GP, but after playing the new one realized most of my anger was because I didn't want to learn something new. However, after getting used to the new barrel mechanics hes now one of my most beloved champs in the game. I don't mean to unseat your emotions, but to simply provide my own similar experience :). Gl friend.

Excuse me what???? Im not complaining about the rework but talking to aatrox mains what? I just asked everyone in the aatrox main discord and reddit server and even ths mods say no rioter ever came to any of us to discuss about anything , the only rioter to every approach was rea3 and it was a long time ago and it wasnt about the rework..i dont know who you guys contacted

RiotBazerkaJun 13, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Demon Joker 787,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iBlkJks9,comment-id=0000000100000006,timestamp=2018-06-13T23:23:33.892+0000)

Excuse me what???? Im not complaining about the rework but talking to aatrox mains what? I just asked everyone in the aatrox main discord and reddit server and even ths mods say no rioter ever came to any of us to discuss about anything , the only rioter to every approach was rea3 and it was a long time ago and it wasnt about the rework..i dont know who you guys contacted

Definitely, thats why I said "I'm pretty sure its safe to say". Historically we've talked with subreddits and mains about reworks to get their feedback (see urgot, warwick, and irelia reworks). That being said, you're absolutely right. With Aatrox in particular I'm not 100% sure we did. Apologies if my comment was misleading :(

Your DemonJun 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Definitely, thats why I said "I'm pretty sure its safe to say". Historically we've talked with subreddits and mains about reworks to get their feedback (see urgot, warwick, and irelia reworks). That being said, you're absolutely right. With Aatrox in particular I'm not 100% sure we did. Apologies if my comment was misleading :(

yea thats fine because i checked and no one ever contacted any of our forums discord subreddit etc , i contacted my friends the admins etc and none of them knew about it. But i appreciate it , do not worry. Thank you for your help anyway and trying to inform :)

DarkinPrimeJun 13, 20184 votes

I'm literally quick sick about this. I would recommend polling players who have tons of matches with Aatrox, and get actual real ideas. This rework needs to not make it out of PBE. There were so many ways to keep Aatrox similar in playstyle while making his kit more interesting and not OP or underwhelming. You literally chose to do the wrong thing across the board. <Removed by Moderation>

Totally Not JinxJun 13, 20184 votes

I've edited this one as well. I understand your frustration, but insulting Riot and the broader League community is not tolerated on the Boards. Please take a moment and check out the Universal Rules.

If you have questions, feel free to talk to us in the The Boards Moderation Discord or the Discuss the Boards sub-board.

Let's just behave! -Said no one ever. ---Totally Not Jinx

Kai GuyJun 13, 20181 votes

Your going to have your hands full for a few weeks mate. Best of luck.

DarkinPrimeJun 13, 20181 votes

Dude they want to make some stupid remarks and try to justify making a second riven and destroying a champion? You guys want to make stupid decisions you're going to get blasted for it and if you look at the boards you're getting blasted by everyone about this reward because it's not a rework you deleted aatrox and made a new champion.

MalrothDragoniaJun 13, 20181 votes

ok, like, the stuff about his personailty I can't speak to, but much of his original kit is contained in this rework. The knock up mini-dash, with circle indicator is part of Q, a line skill shot that slows now not only slows, but also mini-roots if executed well, his blood well is now situationally useful on your command rather than either being up when you don't need, or down when you do, or making GA better on him, his sustain playstyle is now consistent rather than just being tied to whether his stats are enough for the toggle to even matter. Like, it's all there, and while I agree there are similarities to how Riven functions, Aatrox looks as if he'll play significantly differently even with those similarities.

Jericho AzariahJun 13, 20181 votes

this is absolute lazy garbage, this rework was meant for riven, but the development team decided to give this to aatrox since they literally ran out of ideas that would be "original" for him; they decided on stealing riven's personal style and slapping on the title of "original" towards aatrox.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

how can you fail this horribly in this development?

Kai GuyJun 13, 20182 votes

Wait.. people think Riven was up for a rework? Like with a straight faced your telling me you think Riot was going to Lower Riv's mobility? Hell even Disregarding the R and the Heal passive, do you really think any part of this kit was intended to replace riv's?

Jericho AzariahJun 13, 20181 votes

not entirely, but the very idea or makeup of this aatrox rework was meant for someone else; a long time ago one of the riot development team members said that they would try to rework riven where she wouldn't get so easily countered, or possessing some sorta benefit to at least help riven out, just like how they reworked fiora just cause ya only need to buy thornmail and it would screw her over.

HupsisJun 13, 20182 votes

He fills a different niche than Riven.

Riven - mobile bruiser with an aoe execution Aatrox - heavy fighter with displacements and resurrection

Both might have three part Q but even so they have totally different gameplay. Riven just slashes infront of her in a short range while Aatrox tries to hit sweet spots on enemies.

Jericho AzariahJun 13, 20182 votes

it is how he was design which is a problem: Passive: Riven: empowered basic attack after a ability is used to a stack of three Aatrox: has a empowered basic attack the deals damage to a % of the targets max health, reducing heal and shielding every thirty seconds i believe Q: Riven: a three part ability that allows for movement and small amount off cc Aatrox: a three part ability that has a ton of cc, and can synergize extremely well with his other kit, and if i remember correctly can critically strike if within that sweet spot W: Riven: an aoe stun Aatrox: an aoe slow and pull E: Riven: a dash that provides a shield for defensive purpose Aatrox: two charges for dash with a built-in death's dance R: Riven: a self buffing ability that grants a second ability that does full damage to a max of twenty % of targets missing health Aatrox: a self buffing ability that gives a self revival trait

Your telling me that this is supposed to be different from what riven is supposed to be; i literally played Aatrox the same way as Riven during the pbe because i notice how familiar his move-set was to another champion that I play in norms, and was absolutely appalled by this and submitted my statement related to it, this is an absolute copy and paste idea that they had before, which i chewed them out for implementing such method in order to come up with new possible reworks, champions, and items.

I detest the mandate of being un-original with design concept; i aim for the idea of being unique or possessing a style of its own, this does not deem itself as unique or possessing a lot of it's own style.

does this clarify with my statement for you?

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

HupsisJun 13, 20182 votes

From what I've seen, new Aatrox is more sluggish than Riven who is more nimble. Aatrox' play patterns feel different cause his gameplay revolves around Q sweet spots and setting up opportunities to land them with his W and E.

Riven is more up-tempo while Aatrox requires more calculation. Skirmisher vs Juggernaut.

I don't think Riot should restrict their champion designs by denying certain mechanics from new champions or reworks just because they have been used on another champion.

Jericho AzariahJun 14, 20181 votes

Yes!! The thing is, they are not allowed to re-use the same design plot at all, they may use a small portion to design something more unique in it’s own way, but they can not copy and paste a entire plot design, place it on to another individual, and then slap the title “original design” on those that weren’t originally it’s owner.

And it’s basically the same thing as to have the same kit on everyone, there is no originality, there is no diversity, it doesn’t make anything special. What’s the point of playing a older variant when a new and up to date variant shows up.

I mean hashishin even deleted his file related to Aatrox of what made him amazing, he sobbed as he was doing that, knowing that aatrox is dead.

HupsisJun 14, 20181 votes

I don't get how having two champions with similarities means it would be the same if everyone was similar to each other. We already have an ADC class who rely on one thing: auto attacking. Does this mean they are all the same? No. They have different niches while filling the same role. Same with Aatrox and Riven. They both are combo ability using melee characters who fill a different niche.

"What’s the point of playing a older variant when a new and up to date variant shows up." Cause some players prefer to play a skirmisher and some want to play a juggernaut?

They are similar yes, but they are not the same. There are fundamental differences in their kits that make them different.

Jericho AzariahJun 14, 20181 votes

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

Take a closer look at the marksman again, and you will notice a couple of champs are more unique in their own style; though further work for marksman diversity is required.

But the problem is that aatrox was not supposed to be a combo melee fight, he was meant to be a melee sustaining fighting (i use the term sustain not just to refer a form of healing, but another form of continual offensive style). the things is, you can build riven to either be a skirmisher or a juggernaut, it is all dependent on what you build on her, since she has moderate offensive and defensive power.

This does make them the same, and un-original to one another, already tens of thousands of people are realizing this and openly remarking this as the worst rework ever; the difference is very small when you compare it to one another. And don't state the notion that they are different, just cause one is older vs another that is newer yet following the same template.

HupsisJun 14, 20181 votes

If you want to use the argument that Aatrox used to be sustained damage user and isn't that anymore, that's reasonable. But saying he's the same as Riven is not.

Riven's kit doesn't support her being a juggernaut. She lacks sustain and relies on damage mitigation which is a skirmisher attribute.

Sustained damage melee champions are hard to pull off and are rather old design. Aatrox needed an auto range increase on his ultimate to work properly so he wouldn't get kited. I think there's few other dedicated sustained damage melee character in the game (Trynd, Olaf, Jax and Yi) who more or less all have reliable ways to close in on the enemy and stick to them. Aatrox' ability to stick to enemies was bound to his ult which made his usefulness very limited outside his ult.

Maybe Riot deemed there were enough sustained melee characters in the game and wanted to take another look at a champion design with more combo focused gameplay. There was only one combo ability melee champion (Riven) but there were like 5 sustained damage melee champions.

Jericho AzariahJun 14, 20181 votes

But he fucking is!! Aatrox and riven main who watched or played him on the pbe have already recognized this work for Aatrox as a riven copy cat.

There is a league player named exil who wanted test animation canceling for the new Aatrox rework wondering if the developed combo moves from other riven main can be implicated into him.

His conclusion was that reworked Aatrox is the exact same style (a little clunky but still capable of pulling off riven mains combo moved).

And the thing is, I played riven as a full attack damage assassin, tank and juggernaut build. Your statement bout her being unable to play with a juggernaut build due to her kit is inconclusive.

TheDeviceJun 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

One could argue, all champions are excuses to make flashy moves :). And even go so far as to say, flashy moves are the reason why some champions are made x). I'd recommend trying him out a few times first to see how he turns out! Riven was made to engage the high skill expression players (people who play to show their mastery of something). If Aatrox is Riven 2.0 he could be really cool to engage those types of players!

Personally? Hes not really for me, just not my type of champ, but thats just me. I am definitely excited to see what he can do in the hands of players who do like him!

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Totally Not JinxJun 13, 20186 votes

I have taken this opportunity to edit your original post, because flagrant insults to Rioters or the League of Legends community at large is very much against the Universal Rules.

If you have questions, feel free to talk to us in the The Boards Moderation Discord or the Discuss the Boards sub-board.

Let's just behave! -Said no one ever. ---Totally Not Jinx

DarkinPrimeJun 13, 20183 votes

Yes I am insulting the work of Riot because it was terrible

SSmotzerJun 13, 20186 votes

Let's see, the identity within his old kit was dive bombing and attacking the ever loving crap out of anything that moves while healing the whole time.

Now Aatrox's identity is a control demon who locks people down with skill based knock ups before dive bombing and attacking the ever loving crap out of anything that moves while healing the whole time.

Honestly, his first kit was exceedingly brain dead. Auto attack and win, then carry the entire team, or auto attack and lose, and need to be carried. Those were Aatrox's only options in a game. Now Aatrox can control a fight, without needing to dive in head first. Allowing his team to take advantage of the sizable CC.

DarkinPrimeJun 13, 20181 votes

You may be right about the problems of the old aatrox but there are many ways it could have been fixed that were presented by many aatrox Mains on the boards for many years and Riot literally chose to ignore all of it and basically make a new champion. So they didn't fix anything they just made a new champion and deleted and old champion because they lacked the creative ability to solve the problem.

SSmotzerJun 13, 20182 votes

They didn't just make a new kit, they put everything Aatrox had into this new kit, while giving it more oomph.

DarkinPrimeJun 13, 20181 votes

Really? Where is his dive? Where is his aoe poke? Where is his healing from auto attacks? WTF are you even talking about?

Icestar1186Jun 13, 20182 votes

Yes.
Third Q, also E.
First two Qs.
Passive on the E.
Did you read the reveal, or just watch the video?

SSmotzerJun 13, 20181 votes

And his W is his old Q, but when it lands in creates the chain box thing.

DeathfallJun 13, 20182 votes

Well, I think he looks cool and I want to congratulate the Developers on a job well done. I know people are not going to like him because of how passionate they are about him. This was the same case 5 years ago with Karma. This is the case with so many champions that get these types of reworks. Yeah, it's not old Aatrox but at some point he was going to get changed like every other older champion in the game. The difference between a Karma VGU and Aatrox VGU is that they at least improved Aatrox and didn't change everything entirely. He at least has completed animations and a fleshed out design. It might not be the type of you work you guys wanted but at least he is a completed and cohesive champion.