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Kalista's Q seems like it's on the wrong spartan

Kingsgrave··6 votes·1,823 views

but yeah lets just have the original guy have a single target spear that doesn't feel thematic or exciting like it should to just throw spears at dudes

item 3070 Pantheon item 3070

You're missing the point.

More than likely, Panth would have to lose a significant amount of power to get this change, and it probably wouldn't be in a way you would prefer it to be.

Also, long range spear crits wouldn't be allowed.

Despite Pantheon being one of my favorite characters, his design is horrible. Point and click Fighter/Assassin AD Caster that can't decide if he wants to burst, frontline, disengage, engage, peel or close out targets. The only thing that is clear is that his Spear is designed to chip away at the enemy's defenses and then he goes in for the final strike, kinda like a Ranged Xin Zhao. If anything they should do not high damage but be almost constant, kinda like Kalista's Q which is why it upset me.

His Q needs to be a skill-shot. Probably shorter range than most, nowhere near the length of Nid's and probably not close to Kalista's either. The crit is mostly part of his identity but it basically just a different way of giving him an execute mechanic.

You are right in saying that the crit probably won't remain for Spear Shots, but it will still be there in some form or way, at least the execution playstyle and idea.

19 Comments

DaCush4 votes

Ya, I'd be happy with panth getting it as a skillshot. Would be a straight nerf though since right now it's a guaranteed hit and it goes through minions compared to having to actually aim and make sure there isn't a minion blocking you.

Maple Crusader4 votes

No worries, I'm sure Pantheon will get to spam spear skillshots eventually. As long as he doesn't get a copy of Kalista's "Rend" ability passive.

MEMEME6703 votes

Pantheon can have a long range spear shot.

In exchange, his e loses the crit passive and the spears damage is lowered (likely by a significant amount, due to the amount of lane pressure it provides.)

Would you be happy with that?

Kingsgrave1 votes

Pantheon can have a long range spear shot.

In exchange, his e loses the crit passive and the spears damage is lowered (likely by a significant amount, due to the amount of lane pressure it provides.)

Would you be happy with that?

More than likely they would lower the base and ratio and increase the CD, leaving the E passive alone.

MEMEME6703 votes

You're missing the point.

More than likely, Panth would have to lose a significant amount of power to get this change, and it probably wouldn't be in a way you would prefer it to be.

Also, long range spear crits wouldn't be allowed.

Kingsgrave1 votes

You're missing the point.

More than likely, Panth would have to lose a significant amount of power to get this change, and it probably wouldn't be in a way you would prefer it to be.

Also, long range spear crits wouldn't be allowed.

Despite Pantheon being one of my favorite characters, his design is horrible. Point and click Fighter/Assassin AD Caster that can't decide if he wants to burst, frontline, disengage, engage, peel or close out targets. The only thing that is clear is that his Spear is designed to chip away at the enemy's defenses and then he goes in for the final strike, kinda like a Ranged Xin Zhao. If anything they should do not high damage but be almost constant, kinda like Kalista's Q which is why it upset me.

His Q needs to be a skill-shot. Probably shorter range than most, nowhere near the length of Nid's and probably not close to Kalista's either. The crit is mostly part of his identity but it basically just a different way of giving him an execute mechanic.

You are right in saying that the crit probably won't remain for Spear Shots, but it will still be there in some form or way, at least the execution playstyle and idea.

MEMEME6701 votes

Pantheons design is fine. He's an assassin that has to build tanky as the later stages of the game come along, and that is a big part of him not scaling very well into late game.

Why does his q need to be a skill shot though? So you can increase the range?

VerrKol3 votes

Actually, just changing his spear to a skill shot which can be blocked by minions/other champs would probably be enough to balance any range increase. A huge part of Pantheon's kit is his ability to fight/gank in the middle of minion waves and still have incredibly reliable damage.

I'd rather have his short range spear as it is because he frankly doesn't need any more range fighting current top laners. Maybe it would be helpful if Riot turned him into a full time AD mid but that just seems silly given his current success top and jungle.

And @OP The short range spear is very consistent with his Spartan identity. For instance, the Spartan Race usually gets a 10-20 yard throw.

I don't know about you, but there's only so far you can throw a 7~8 ft spear accurately.

MEMEME6701 votes

Making it a skillshot would be a straight buff to Jungle Panth, and make his ganks INSANE (Spear you from Bush or just as he runs into lane, still get full combo like normal panth).

VerrKol1 votes

Eh maybe but bush ganks aren't exactly jungle Pantheon's forte. My point is that it would be a situational advantage/disadvantage. If we're talking about giving it Nidalee level range, then I'll definitely agree it would require additional nerfs, but I'd just find that kind of range completely out of place in his kit anyway. I was thinking more along the lines of adding 50~100 range, but I haven't checked into Kalista much which is the OP's reference point.

Kingsgrave1 votes

Eh maybe but bush ganks aren't exactly jungle Pantheon's forte. My point is that it would be a situational advantage/disadvantage. If we're talking about giving it Nidalee level range, then I'll definitely agree it would require additional nerfs, but I'd just find that kind of range completely out of place in his kit anyway. I was thinking more along the lines of adding 50~100 range, but I haven't checked into Kalista much which is the OP's reference point.

Pantheon has a 1 second stun and around 400% bonus AD ratios. How is ganking not his forte? He isn't the greatest at clearing the jungle until he hurts so much you might as well just be destroying people constantly. You can ult behind people and force flashes and usually get a kill without much effort. Nobody can really duel you or stop you because you can just block 2-3 autoattacks within a relatively short period of time if the Pantheon knows how to save his passive while also having it ready just before using his W after the first proc has been used.

VerrKol1 votes

I didn't say ganking wasn't his forte, I said bush ganking wasn't. IMO this is a discussion, albeit a silly one, about how changing Pantheon's current single auto target spear into a longer range skill shot spear. The main disadvantage of this change would be his spear missing or being blocked by minions.

You attempted to say situations in which his spear is blocked would be few by citing lane and bush gank scenarios. In my experience as jungle Pantheon, there are many times where I'm ganking and there are minions between me and my target. The reason for this is simple, Pantheon is slow and aside from his W leap, which you will not use until in range of the target champion, does not have a gap closer. For pre-6 ganks, I typically come in behind or perpendicular to the enemy laners current position to block their exit. Pantheon lane ganks rely heavily on your ally having some sort of cc to hold down the enemy while you close into range. Because of my usual approach vector, a skill shot spear even with increased range is quite likely to miss due to minion blocking or enemy escape skills. The only way to increase the chance of the spear landing would be to first W to gap close/stun and then Q. If they enemy has any sense at all, they will run like hell after a mere 1s stun causing the E follow up to likely miss hits. Alternatively, I could W->E as normal then follow up with Q but now knowing it can be blocked or juked. Maybe I can pace the champion past the creep wave and finish them off with a new longer range spear and maybe not.

What I'm trying to point out is that giving Pantheon a longer ranged skill shot spear doesn't actually make him stronger in some ganking situations. A lot of it depends on how well you clear minion waves with R or E and how well your opponent can juke.

Since you brought it up, having a skill shot spear miss completely would also make it harder for Pantheon to stack his passive.

I'm not necessarily saying turning Pantheon's spear into a (undefined) range skill shot would be a nerf, but I am saying that it inherently lowers his damage in some situations as a built in compensation for increased range.

I personally find this proposed change distasteful because I think it would ruin top lane Pantheon which is how I primarily play him. Top lane Pantheon is all about zone control by abusing your early game dominance. You can't do that when opponents can easily hide behind minions to block half (or whatever %) of your damage.

It is a more balanced change for Jungle Pantheon that adds room for superior play by Pantheon or outplay by his opponent.

Kingsgrave1 votes

Making it a skillshot would be a straight buff to Jungle Panth, and make his ganks INSANE (Spear you from Bush or just as he runs into lane, still get full combo like normal panth).

Reworking just his spear would never be enough, thats why I referred to his eventual rework that they have confirmed is needed since he not only has an identity crisis in terms of role but isn't defined enough visually, and IronStylus seems to fancy having Targon be the focus of the next Lore thematic update thing. (also look at the support items being Freljord, Shurima, Targon too)

I'm not sure the Spear alone would be a huge buff to Jungle Pantheon. If you don't add any power to his E his clearing gets pretty destroyed, since its already pretty difficult considering E has pretty poor base damage AND does 50% less to Minions and Monsters. His laning would also be pretty destroyed even if it was only like 100-200 more range than before. Assuming it has a damage decrease as well and only your Autos can proc your E passive, it seems like it would actually be a large nerf and just be a placeholder change until they got the rework out. If Pantheon becomes a huge problem with the new jungle, which he might because he is actually relatively unaffected by it compared to most others, I could see them doing this in particular.

Also I would hardly call it a combo when it takes no real thought process and you just mash buttons. Ever wonder why he has a 51% winrate at every single level of play and has had that pretty much since shortly after his release?

Sire Hippington1 votes

The point off changeing it to a skillshot would not be buffing pant, but makeing him a bit more exiting to play, and most off all less frustraiting to face. There is little most toplaners can do vs the targeted spear spam. Reducing his laneing power this way would allow to buff his kit elswhere, hopefully giving him a lategame...

VerrKol1 votes

Sorry if it's unclear, but I'm not saying it would or should buff Pantheon. I think his damage and corresponding win rate are in a good place right now.

Spear spam is actually probably the worst way to play Pantheon top lane. Sure they should be used for occasional poke, but he gets much better damage out of his E and follow up. Riot is also changing Doran's Shield to reduce damage of single target abilities like this because there is so little interaction.

I think that like Ryze, Pantheon's skill requirement and counterplay are hidden. Sure he can spam spears and can't miss his stun, but he's all about interweaving his abilities and auto attacks, especially with Hydra aa reset. Then he gets tanky enough to get in and out of team fights as his cds reset. For instance, one of my favorite lane matchups with Pantheon is fighting Riven. The interaction between her Q and Pantheon's passive, her interupt and his E, and dealing with her ult power spike makes it a really interesting lane phase that can go either way.

There's a few fundamental problems with the way you seem to want his kit to go. Where exactly do you want him to gain this late game power as compensation? Do you just want additional AD scaling? His overall scaling is already pretty good and giving him more won't actually help hit late game problems. The reason he falls off late game is because he is a 100% all in champion. Pantheon does not escape ganks or maneuver well outside of his ult which I firmly believe cannot and should not be buffed. The only significant place to buff him is to add an escape element to his W which turns him into an incredibly tanky assassin which Diana has shown us Riot hates and is bloody impossible to balance. The alternative is too shift him towards his bruiser attributes, but adding a long range spear already conflicts with that identity. What other bruisers have a long range skill shot? AD Nidalee functioned similarly after her rework much to every top laner's displeasure. We could look at AP bruiser Gragas, but his Q barrel was nerfed to hell. So my question is, what exactly do you want Pantheon to be and how is he not performing as such now?

I do think that giving a long range spear would effectively buff his non existant anti-siege abilities but that's as un-bruiser and un-assassin as you can get. There's very good reasons that those champion roles don't get it in their kits aside from low damage stuff like Zed's throwing star.

I understand Pantheon has no skill shots and feels uninteractive. The only logical place to give him a skill shot is his Q. I just have yet to see a good way to implement it while preserving or refining his role identity. I'm not entirely convinced that every single champion in LoL can and should have a skill shot, particularly for melee bruisers.

Sire Hippington1 votes

as i said, the most important change would be increasing the counterplay to pant. He'S my main, and i guess i know very well how he works and how u can max his effecktiveness, but simply spaming Q while starting with flask takes no skill whatsoever, and it's usually more than enough for most toplane matchups.

Pantheon got hidden skillrequierments, so does Garen and every single other champion in the game. The point is that he got no counterplay 1v1. The theoretical counterplay would be avoiding his E by sidesteping or cc, but his point and click stun simply says NO.

Relying on ur jungler to abuse his low escape is not counterplay, neither is outscaling him. there is nothing u can do rather than survive and hope for either ur jungler or lategame, which is not really interesting gameplay.

Changeing his Q into a skillshot would allow for more range on it and thus gives potential to poke in standoffs rather than beeing useless till the fight starts. The loss off reliable damage and harras in lane frees enough power to buff his Ult(actually landing on an enemy is more gambling than aiming atm) and reduce his W cd on later ranks(more survivabillity, more mobillity). U could also allow W on allys to give him an escape option. Another option would be reducing E-cd if it gets interupted or if u cancle it ur self(maybe based on remaining casttime). His E is his main-damage later in the game, but it's easily counter in teamfights(not so in 1v1 cause of the stun), so makeing it somewhat more reliable by refunding cd would help his lategame aswell. Changeing Q or E into Total AD could also help to buff his lategame basedamge without overbuffing his early-mid damage. adding an armor-shred to his spear would increase his utillity and would make landing the spear befor the full combo more rewarding Changeing his W to physical damage and evt give it a small armorscaling(he's smacking people with his shield) would also help him to stay relevant late, as he could go more tanky without sacrificeing to much damage.

There are more than enough options to buff Pants lategame performance without increasing his ad-scalings.

And for ur bruiser-argument: Bruiser traditionally were/are very problematic in league, simply because they are all-in with more or less 100% rightclick/point 'n click. If a bruiser gets in ur face, there is not mutch skill expression(there is some in how he gets to ur face though), there is just checking for stats. Making melees more interactive was one of riots designgoals last preseason(little work on that so far though)

VerrKol1 votes

You're right that starting Q and spamming flask is boring and dumb, but it's also the mark of a bad Pantheon in most matchups. IMO going sword + 2red +1blue is a better start in most matchups and leads to a lot of interactions plus better damage. I know there are still a fair number of people who max Q first for easy cheese damage, but this is starting to sound like more of a problem with flask being a crutch item than it is with Pantheon's ability. Flask is a problem with any target harass ability champ like Malphite.

So you basically want to turn his Q and W into skill shots. I can see a lot of potential for nerfing Q by changing it to a skill shot while buffing his W. I'm personally tempted to say make his W reset on kills/assists to buff both his bruiser and assassin identities. It helps him maintain the front line and all in identity despite the offered ranged harass. It's also primarily a team fight buff that won't affect his lane power. I think there's definitely room for more interaction on his W too, but I'm not quite sure where yet. Braum showed us how much potential there is in direction oriented damage reduction and I think Pantheon might have some thematic potential there too. The one thing I don't want to see is some charge up mechanic to turn it into a skill shot. I'd rather see impact to his shield orientation than the usual aim in a straight line cc.

I'm going to categorically say no to any ult changes. The entire point of his ult power is that it's hit or miss and relies upon correctly anticipating the fight while getting your allies to herd the enemy into your path. Buffing his ult by reducing the fall time to make it more accurate takes away the counterplay interaction you're trying to create. The difficulty in planning out your ult is one of the key things that keeps Pantheon from becoming completely overpowered in solo queue. Straight damage buffs are pretty unneeded here since it's already quite impactful. The only other avenue I can think of is adding hard CC and that's a truly OP thing to consider. You also have to be careful about it's impacts on his split push as well.

Alright, I'm sold on turning his Q into a skill shot as long as his other skills get shifted to compensate for the reduction in all in situations which are Pantheon's bread and butter. The one thing I didn't want to see was Pantheon waiting around for his E to come off cd because I'm fighting a bruiser mid minion wave and know that the spear would never hit.

Remlap12231 votes

Yeah, Panth is really not satisfying to play. Unlike Gangplnak who's targeted Q is an essential part of his kit and a central theme to the champ, Panth's Q just feels like boring cheese. Unless I use it as a final crit strike, it's boring ranged harass. Giving it some range and making it a skillshot would probably help. I feel like that would make it feel different than just an inferior Gangplank Q clone.

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