last patch on PBE (or it might be two patches ago now)
was given grievous wounds to its passive (something i had been suggesting for AGES)
yet this change was pulled.
now... I'm curious... what data did you gather that made u decide to pull this?
i mean now that i play 
more often... i don't really care as much that it was pulled.
but I'm still curious...
RiotRiot Axes14 votesDidn't get any useful data off PBE, but internal playtesting was pretty conclusive.
Findings were basically:
Tried a version that deals 20 magic damage and reduces self-healing by 75%, which did solve those problems - it was clear why you bought it.
Next steps would be looking at a component/final item combo like Hexdrinker -> Maw of Malmortius or QSS -> Mercurial Scimitar, where the reason to buy the final item is because you needed to buy the strong component item earlier in the game. That has some promise, but it also has a lot of risk (may not make the game better) for a lot of cost (at least one new item) and I don't know if anyone will be pursuing it any time soon.
For what it's worth, this sort of exploration isn't all that unusual - the unusual part is just that I shipped it to PBE.
MunchCrunchLunch1 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i9ygcskz,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-06-07T06:04:45.118+0000)
Didn't get any useful data off PBE, but internal playtesting was pretty conclusive.
Findings were basically:
- There's a possible place in the game for a strong counter item that says "You can't drain tank off me."
- At 15% damage reflect + Grievous Wounds, it reads like a damage item - user feels bad about not seeing it do good damage, enemy feels bad about not being able to build lifesteal to counter it.
Tried a version that deals 20 magic damage and reduces self-healing by 75%, which did solve those problems - it was clear why you bought it.
- At 2000 gold (i.e. tuned to be exactly stat efficient off of armor alone), it was 600-800 gold too expensive to be a good counter item (typically need to be able to pivot onto counters fast), 600-800 gold too cheap to be something you can sit on (2000 gold end point item is hard to make be worthwhile).
- Collides pretty hard with Frozen Heart/Randuin's Omen, which also reduce lifesteal quite a lot due to their anti-auto attack properties.
Next steps would be looking at a component/final item combo like Hexdrinker -> Maw of Malmortius or QSS -> Mercurial Scimitar, where the reason to buy the final item is because you needed to buy the strong component item earlier in the game. That has some promise, but it also has a lot of risk (may not make the game better) for a lot of cost (at least one new item) and I don't know if anyone will be pursuing it any time soon.
For what it's worth, this sort of exploration isn't all that unusual - the unusual part is just that I shipped it to PBE.
please an item that says "you can't drain tank off me" this would solve so many issues in top lane.
kennen and fiora would be fair matchups
patmax171 votesI followed all the iterations of randuin/thornmail that went on and off PBE over the last months. I'm a tank player and thisis relevant to my experience in LoL :D
One thing that makes me wonder about all these attempts: with randuin, frozen heart and thornmail, isn't the niece of the anti-autoattacker items too crowded? I think it will be hard to keep all three items interesting, and maybe it would be worth reducing the number of items to two?
I would take a step back, analyze the three items, their intended strength/niche and see what's needed, what works and what not (I guess that's what you do all day long, basically?). Forzen heart I think is very strong but has an unclear identity: it gives a lot of mana and cdr, making it a very interesting choice for mana-based casters (i.e. almost every tank), but its armor+aura make it very anti-autoattackers focused, which is a second, distinct identity. Randuin gives HP alongside armor and has initiation/peeling potential (partially overlapping with righteous glory). I find the cold steel passive quite underwhelming, since if i'm the tank i'm usually not the one who's focussed, and I don't feel the attack speed reduction helps my teammates much. It looks more like an item for duelist fighters, but it doesn't give offensive stats. Thornmail is the most focues item, giving a ton of armor without any other stat, and being the go-to item when you are focused by the enemy ADC. Its identity is clear, but it's a seldomly bought item because its use case doesn't happen very often.
Not sure what could be possible alternatives, brainstorming here:
XIII Vanitas2 votesBoth 
and 
have to exist because there are manaless champions, champions that prefer mana and cdr over health and support champions that want to buy more team-oriented items rather than "selfish" stats.
The only way to lower the number of anti-autoattack items would be turn FH into a cdr + armor + health item (this way anyone could buy it) and Omen into the improved version of Thornmail (by that I mean an item that counters lifesteal and crits rather than just AS and on-hits).
The Fuzzy 0ne1 votesI disagree that getting a frozen heart is considered selfish. The main point of getting it would be to lower atk speed of enemies that live off it like yi or tryndamere, or a comp with 2 or more adc's, or to reduce crit dmg so u won't be one shot by say, a gp barrel, come late game.
Omen also gives a slow (more cc)
And FH gives a whole 20% cdr which is needed for support players to spam our abilities to save our teammates from themselves.
XIII Vanitas1 votesWho said that FH is a selfish item?
The Fuzzy 0ne1 votesOh maybe I misread... I thought that's what you were saying
XIII Vanitas3 votesI was listing the reasons why both FH and Omen need to exist:
The Fuzzy 0ne1 votesOk thanks for the clarification!
patmax171 votesI'm not sure I understand the first part: mana items always had the "drawback" that you can't efficiently build them on manaless champions (think sheen)...scrap that, I probably completely missed what you tried to say. Could you please try to rephrase it? ^^'
XIII Vanitas1 votesSure. I'm saying that both and need to exist, because each one has a unique niche: FH is meant to be a supportive item that you buy to keep your teammates alive, while Omen is a tank item that you buy to keep yourself alive.
Anyways, there are some exceptions to the previous rule. For example, a champion that really wants cdr and mana will buy FH over Omen, while a manaless champion will always buy Omen for obvious reasons.
In my opinion, a way to solidify the identity of both items would be to rework FH by removing the mana from its stats (maybe by changing the build path into 
+ 
), thus making it universally viable and the go-to item to counter AS + on-hit builds.
At the same time Omen could be reworked to counter crit based builds. If was cheaper and lost its current passive for a new one that applies Grevious Wounds on the attacker, it could become a component for Omen: just swap Wardens with Thormail from its current build path and change the "Cold steel" passive into the new one that gives GW. Now you have an item that passively prevents your enemies from lifestealing from you and gives you an active slow to reduce their ability to kite, which is the perfect counter against marksmen, Yasuo and Tryndamere.
patmax171 votesOk, I agree with this analysis ^^
I'd then still need some good mana item for tanks, as said mana+20%CDR are HUGE on FH at the moment, and need to be replaced somehow if FH loses any of them ^^
XIII Vanitas1 votes
and new 
(which is going to be built out of 
+ 
)
DeathBurst1 votesVery interesting post, thank you.
Would you say that Last Whisper also follow the same pattern as Hexdrinker/QSS or is it too core to be considered a counter item? What about Warden's Mail?
LankPants1 votesHow do you think something like "Enemies take [X+Yxarmour]% of lifesteal from this target as a true damage DoT over 3 seconds" would work? Kind of like a reverse Deaths Dance which allowed ADCs a limited timeframe for lifesteal and puts a time on 'kill this guy or swap targets before you get rended down'.
Next steps would be looking at a component/final item combo like Hexdrinker -> Maw of Malmortius or QSS -> Mercurial Scimitar, where the reason to buy the final item is because you needed to buy the strong component item earlier in the game. That has some promise, but it also has a lot of risk (may not make the game better) for a lot of cost (at least one new item) and I don't know if anyone will be pursuing it any time soon.
I like the sound of that, as long as the end point is a big tank item worth over 3000 gold. One of the things I hate as a tank player is that there's no solid late game options if I start getting ahead. All the items available are just too cheep to fill this niche. I've always thought that Rand's would be quite a good item to slot into this 3000 gold+ range too, maybe something like swapping the Rubies in the buildpath for a Giant's, upping the HP to ~450 and bumping the cost to 3200.
nosafterburn1 votesso will 
+ 
build into it now?
Skias1 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Axes,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i9ygcskz,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-06-07T06:04:45.118+0000)
Didn't get any useful data off PBE, but internal playtesting was pretty conclusive.
Findings were basically:
- There's a possible place in the game for a strong counter item that says "You can't drain tank off me."
- At 15% damage reflect + Grievous Wounds, it reads like a damage item - user feels bad about not seeing it do good damage, enemy feels bad about not being able to build lifesteal to counter it.
Tried a version that deals 20 magic damage and reduces self-healing by 75%, which did solve those problems - it was clear why you bought it.
- At 2000 gold (i.e. tuned to be exactly stat efficient off of armor alone), it was 600-800 gold too expensive to be a good counter item (typically need to be able to pivot onto counters fast), 600-800 gold too cheap to be something you can sit on (2000 gold end point item is hard to make be worthwhile).
- Collides pretty hard with Frozen Heart/Randuin's Omen, which also reduce lifesteal quite a lot due to their anti-auto attack properties.
Next steps would be looking at a component/final item combo like Hexdrinker -> Maw of Malmortius or QSS -> Mercurial Scimitar, where the reason to buy the final item is because you needed to buy the strong component item earlier in the game. That has some promise, but it also has a lot of risk (may not make the game better) for a lot of cost (at least one new item) and I don't know if anyone will be pursuing it any time soon.
For what it's worth, this sort of exploration isn't all that unusual - the unusual part is just that I shipped it to PBE.
We definitely need something because 40% lifesteal Fiora etc is very frustrating. Once she has that and the new GA that gives her a ton of AD, she becomes nigh unkillable.
The Yetii Rider4 votesHaving it read like a damage item seems unnecessary though. Couldn't you simply remove the damage altogether? If the data you received has stated that removing draintanking from you is a good thing for the game, why would you punish them for switching targets with Grievous Wounds? They should be able to switch targets after realizing they aren't lifestealing off you, the only thing the item should do is punish them for trying to focus on you specifically.
Chevalier's Breastplate 1000 gold - Cloth Armor + 700
30 Armor Unique Passive - Guarded Heart - Enemy champions who basic attack you receive no lifesteal (same coding used for Heimerdinger's turrets and towers).
This would allow a very direct and targeted counter: it impacts marskmen. It would refrain from punishing melee champions who depend on their kit-based sustain which often involves more skill or at least closing the gap between you and them to use (Darius Q, Mundo R, Illaoi's tentacles, Udyr W).
Armor of the Chevalier Giant's Belt + Chevalier's Breastplate + 1200 gold - 3000 gold total
50 Armor 500 Health
Unique Passive - Guarded Heart - Enemy champions who basic attack you receive no lifesteal.
IcyPepper1 votesUnique Passive - Guarded Heart - Enemy champions who basic attack you receive no lifesteal (same coding used for Heimerdinger's turrets and towers).
A bit much for a 1000 gold item. I'd say that would be subject to internal testing (Maybe 50% healing?).
SlashStriker1 votesSince Thornmail does Magic Damage logically you must get resistance to counter it
Lifesteal is not correct way to counter Thornmail (Thematically thorns makes you bleed, right?)
Thornmail gives only armor which means Magic damage can kill thornmail users
You buy armor to counter physical damage so magic damage deals with armor units
currently Thornmail have too many counters and if you don't reduce lifesteal, then Thronmail becomes useless item
If spirit visage have MR and health why do you give it extra regeneration and healing booster?
Sunfire cape 3 stats
Thrornmail 2 stats
DunkinNoobs1 votesGood to see Riot actually understands the nuances of their game. If only their playerbase could do the same.
Dreadlocks1 votes#RevertRengar
Twin TaiIs1 votesIf it's suppose to counter life draining champions, then why not make it an active where, when activated, any hp drained would instead inflict harm. So an adc late game, should he attack you, would lose HP equal to what he would have drained instead. A champion thats spell vamps reliant would also have to be cautious, like vlad and swain. Tanks don't have a way to deal with drain champs, this would give them a way to fight them, even if for a few seconds (active could be 5s and 60s cooldown). And it wouldn't hard self healers and other forms, like mundo's R and soraka (except her Q)
As for it's stats, armor is obvious. Lack of HP should also be a thing, as you are suppose to reduce sustained damage, not burst. However, damage reflection as passive could prove problematic, as the active already denies healing completely, as well as damaging. Could be just "health draining effects only apply at X% strength" or something.
JhomasTefferson4 votesTmail needs the grievous wounds buff
Big Lincoln4 votesbecause it was stupid
F0zzyBear3 votesThe problem with the addition of grievous wounds to the item is that the counter-play against Thornmail is to build lifesteal.
Jbels3 votesThe problem with the addition of grievous wounds to the item is that the counter-play against Thornmail is to build lifesteal.
and yet the point of the item is to counter ADCs. You don't give executioner's calling an item or stat that negates it because it too effectively negates what it was meant to negate.
F0zzyBear2 votesHey there Jbels! I don't believe the item is intended to counter ADCs, I think it's very specifically against auto-attack champions. But if it did have grievous wounds and it's passive, it would be completely game breaking.
Variks the Loyal2 votesADCs are an auto-attack champion, so it is meant to combat ADCs.
The thing that would make Thornmail balanced in that environment is the fact that it remains extremely niche. It would be built in scenarios where there's multiple life-stealing AA focused enemies to deal with; otherwise, the tank is extremely weak VS ability power or percentage health based damage, since Thornmail's only actual defense is the Armor it gives; no Health, and no MR.
Against a balanced team, with an ADC, APC in mid, and an enemy tank/fighter in the jungle/top lane, there isn't room for Thornmail in a balanced item build. That keeps it balanced.
ModAcademy Kayn5 votesThe problem around that train of thought though is that ADC's are meant to kill tanks. Thornmail's entire purpose is to punish ADC's who haven't bought Lifesteal yet, and then also limit the amount of life healed from it. Thornmail already counters Lifesteal by lowering the amount healed, but at the same time Lifesteal counters Thornmail damage. It shouldn't counter it's own counter, and ADC's at the same time.
ProfDrDeath1 votesLifesteal is, on its own, not a counter to Thornmail. It never was.
Lifesteal = Percentage of damage x ratio of (Thorn user's Armor + 100) to (Thorn attacker's MR + 100)
With current Thornmail in the above formula, a tank with 90 base Armor would need, against an AD with a balanced build (flat MR runes, 
/
upgrade/
/
/
/
- 30% Lifesteal and 87 MR), 183 additional bonus Armor on top of Thornmail to negate all the ADCs Lifesteal - but merely for the scaling damage part of Thornmail to deny the entirety of the Lifesteal. This calculation does not account for the flat damage.
However, the ADC needs all three last items to require the tank to have even that much Armor. Without , the tank would only need 83 Armor on top of Thornmail. Without , he only needs 12.7 of Thorn's 100 Armor. And without , the tank doesn't even need Thorn's own Armor!
So, I have a problem with people saying that you just need Lifesteal to outheal Thornmail - because, if you look at the numbers, it is simply not true. ADCs need three big items to counteract Thornmail - and using 7500+ gold to counteract 2200 gold is ok in my book.
The purpose of Thornmail is to deny its user as a valid Lifesteal Battery target. By adding Grievous Wounds to it, you would change that purpose from being a selfish effect (deny Lifesteal on yourself) to a teamwide effect (reduce Lifesteal on everyone).
Melledoneus4 votesADCs are meant to kill anything that is not actively bursting them down late game. Tanks are harder to kill, and thus should not be focused over carries. Tanks should at least have some say over choosing to be or not to be a health bag for ADCs with lifesteal, because it's not like they are going to kill them on their lonesome.
ADCs kill tanks, but because their damage eventually burns down the health (because the damage is infinite). That does not mean tanks should be turned into a life support system because lifesteal is a thing.
This thornmail also sacrifices much-needed HP to counter a specific mechanic. Saying thornmail shouldn't counter lifesteal (which it explicitly doesn't, the true counter would be MR purchases because lifesteal is always there) is like saying LDR shouldn't counter tanks because tanks build to survive ADCs but LDR counters that counter.
Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votesFun fact : thornmail dosn't counter adc only, but all ad (so caster).
TheGrot3 votesBecause then it would become a niche item only good against a small subset of champions. They took away a lot of the damage, which is way better than applying grievous wounds when there are already easy ways for your teammates to apply it.
SnakDatSmilesBak2 votesIt can finally be a useful counter to lifesteal stacking. That's what I think since lifesteal stacking has been an issue recently.
Cloud2731 votesArmor/health will NEVER be allowed to be strong. Offensive stats will always win. Better get used to it now.
ForgiveColour1 votesLmao
Zelorxon1 votesBecause riot hates anything that's logical and not retarded, duh. They have a name to keep high you know...
Ethan Hannum1 votesBecause riot hates anything that's logical and not retarded, duh.
If you get hit by an arrow with thornmail in real life, the damage you do to their armor won't do anything to you.
FeelsCampedMan1 votesBecause it was an experimental change that wasn't supposed to be sent to PBE
Elkington VI1 votesIt would counter 
for starters and he's supposed to be able to counter tanky champs. I could just imagine Darius building that and then I would never be able to trade with him for the rest of the game. It would be complete bullshit. If they ever plan to give Thormail grievous wounds, it should at least be an active. A defensive item that passively counters all auto-attacker sustain is too much, especially since only fighters and ADCs have access to decent lifesteal now.
All bruiser auto-attackers would be royally screwed by a grievous wounds Thormail.
PePsiLemoNN1 votesIt's counterplay is lifesteal. Grevious wounds counter life steal. It's not healthy punishing a basic attack reliant champion for doing the only thing he can do while also making it's counterplay 50% effective
