late game pink wards, issue

SwiftKitten88·Jun 22, 2016·165 votes·5,525 views

Earlier today i got out of a very long game.

they had and

and and because everyone on my team bought multiple pink wards and 4 players got the , we played a very even game for the first 40 min or so...

but after both teams started hitting full build.. we could no longer buy pink wards. and because of this we ended up losing the game from not being able to get vision on the stealthed champs.

so riot. PLEASE allow us some way to use pink wards late game after we reach full build.

because its stupid that we had a perfectly balanced match until our team hit full build then their team randomly gets a huge advantage because we no longer have a spot for

95 Comments

R FLASH XDJun 22, 201624 votes

Just revert to season 5 vision ffs

VvVVvVJun 22, 20163 votes

Ive said this many times on the threads and got down voted to hell, was probably by stealth champ mains. All of the ward changes they made were just not needed. They literally gave stealth champs a huge advantage by making vision wards visible. Now champs like Shaco and Eve can gank with no worries because all their bot has to do is go in bushes......they either clear the pink or see no pink at all and the jungler has no worries about being seen. At least with the old warding they at least had to sweep to make sure its safe or place a vision ward their selves. When you are playing support you cant really afford to be buying pink ward after pink ward after pink ward.

ive been in games where other team had a shaco or eve jungler and i literally spent at least 450 gold just on pink wards before the lane phase was even over because they just get whipped out right after you place them or they clear it later...then you have to sit under turret until you get a chance to go place another just so it can be killed a few seconds later.

The Blue RajahJun 22, 20161 votes

I'm sorry, what?? Vision wards have always been visible.

RedWeddingJun 22, 20165 votes

No, no they haven't. They were invisible for a while, but one of the earliest vision changes made them visible, saying that it was unfair that they granted vision while simultaneously removing vision. There was some worry around the change, focusing on the power level of stealth champs, namely Eve (whose rework came a couple months before the Vision Ward changes, if memory serves.)

This is an older change, but the game has been around a while. Pinks weren't always visible.

The Blue RajahJun 22, 20162 votes

Ah, my apologies. I joined the game in season 4, so that was before my time.

PeelGodDamnitJun 24, 20161 votes

Well... no. pinks were invisible for a long, long time. That change wasn't "one of the earliest vision changes".

On second thought I guess that statement is fairly relative. If you've played as long as I have pinks were invisible longer than they've been visible.

RedWeddingJun 24, 20161 votes

The exact date escapes me, but it was part of one of the first major changes they made to vision. They were invisible for a long time, but there weren't many (read: any, really) vision overhauls during that time. Of course, this was like two years ago now...

checks the wiki

Alright so they were made visible three seasons ago, in patch 3.14. I remembered this being the first major sweep of vision mechanics, which is what I was indicating with my post. This is the patch where they capped the number of wards any one person could place and introduced trinkets.

There were earlier changes to vision wards, too, but those felt like more of a tuning change than an overhaul.

(I have judgement Kayle, to give an idea of my own play time. I just didn't really pay much attention to game mechanics in the early days... and have a horrid memory :P )

TurquoiseYoshiJun 22, 20161 votes

I don't think it should revert completely back. item 3363 , item 3364 , and the removal of paid trinket upgrades are probably better for the game. What should probably be implemented is an 8th item slot for consumables, so you don't have to immediately use Elixirs at max build, or you can grab a pink ward. That or just an alteration that gives pink wards instead of green wards, with either a longer timer or no stacking of wards. Or make a new kind of trinket that gives true sight.

DrugsForRobotsJun 22, 20161 votes

Maybe the trinket key (4 by default) toggles between two six-slot inventories? One for real items, the other for consumables, wards, and trinkets?

DrugsForRobotsJun 22, 20166 votes

Having more access to True Sight effects doesn't fix the underlying problems with stealth!

We need Riot to implement tell-tale signs, audio cues, telegraphing, etc. on each instance of stealth - that way clever and astute players can outplay stealth without needing a super specific item!

Serf MasterJun 22, 201615 votes

Aggred, one of these ward upgrades should be a pinkward option.

D3m37r1Jun 22, 20167 votes

That was actually a thing until last season. The only difference is that they didn't last forever but considering that it had charges i think it was fair

JonxxJun 22, 20162 votes

Actually they (trinket pinks) were permanent like they are now.

DrugsForRobotsJun 22, 20162 votes

Pink Wards do counter stealth, but the true sight effect is incredibly harsh (i.e. 'hard counter') to stealth. Pink Wards should not be used as an instant speed consumable 'now i c u' effect!

Having greater access to Pink Wards doesn't actually fix any of the underlying issues with stealth!

EddardStark84Jun 22, 201615 votes

Stealth needs to be reworked if they are going to keep vision as half ass as it is right now.

foxreJun 22, 201613 votes

I would prefer upgrading the with a one time use pink ward, becoming . It then returns back into the .

PoskeJun 22, 20167 votes

{quoted}

Earlier today i got out of a very long game.

they had and

and and because everyone on my team bought multiple pink wards and 4 players got the upgraded red trinket, we played a very even game for the first 40 min or so...

but after both teams started hitting full build.. we could no longer buy pink wards. and because of this we ended up losing the game from not being able to get vision on the stealthed champs.

so riot. PLEASE allow us some way to use pink wards late game after we reach full build.

because its stupid that we had a perfectly balanced match until our team hit full build then their team randomly gets a huge advantage because we no longer have a spot for

Here have some counter measures

item 3364

It Hertz When IPJun 22, 201636 votes

Meanwhile, the stealthed champion still can't be clicked on...

Jetridder11Jun 22, 201612 votes

Not only that, but the red trinket doesn't give you accurate vision, the champion visual updates like every, I don't know, 1 second? Landing skillshot-cc or just skillshots is still mostly about guessing where they are now.

Sozan5Jun 22, 20167 votes

I think Rito should just do the following changes:

- no longer disables traps or wards (still reveals them). Oh, and no lingering vision for targets that are outside of the trinket area (so, the second the trinket runs out or you move away, the vision is gone). - keeps current effects + reveals (completely, like Vision ward) enemy champions in the area at levels 9+.

This would accomplish the following:

Sweeping Lens would be worth taking in some situations (right now, Oracle Alteration is simply superior and nobody past level 9 will take Sweeping).
You would be able to counter stealth based champions without having to use up an item slot for vision ward (as long as you use the trinket in the right area).
You would have the choice of either revealing and destroying traps in large area or disabling them in a small one.

Just gonna quote myself (even though that was on slightly different topic, but I believe it's still appropriate here).

DrugsForRobotsJun 22, 20161 votes

Having the ability to counter a specific function of a champion's ability with a free item is outrageous! I'm talking about this love people seem to have for instant speed True Sight effects. Yes it would work, it would counter stealthed champs, but It's not fun or fair for the stealthed champion!

Imagine how much hate Riot would get if they gave people a free item that you could activate for a spell-shield every 60 seconds. If that sounds ridiculous, take a look at what you're saying should be done with stealth!

On the plus side, not disabling the traps (but still revealing them) would be a nice touch for the Teemos and Shacos out there.

Sozan5Jun 22, 20161 votes

Hm, interesting problem - but to be fair - it's still worse than current vision ward - that thing reveals stealth within 1000 units and does it instantly as well (and chances are, you are not going to be able to focus the ward, since it takes a while to break down). So, between this and the vision ward slot (that's being proposed a lot, even has a whole thread on the boards already) - I'd take the changed Sweeping Lens.

Maybe some kind of delay would be required in order for it to feel more fair to stealth champions. Let's say... Sweeping would start with 0,25s delay with an area of 350 units and then would grow over 6 seconds to 500-635 units (based on level). Would give stealthed champions some time to react while remaining an effective tool to counter stealth.

And the not disabling traps is a must, as currently Oracle Alteration gives you complete immunity to all traps for 10 seconds for the whole team. With 60s cooldown, while costing nothing (and considering how vital traps are both for Shaco and Teemo (especially), it's basically a free hard counter).

YJRBqwXJcSJun 22, 20166 votes

Pink ward is vastly superior compared to sweepers

Sugar MommaJun 22, 20162 votes

Not necessarily. Sweepers would have a lower cooldown obviously, and you can clear wards over a larger area.

invisiblecat1Jun 22, 20162 votes

Sweepers cannot be placed down and set to one area, and you can tell if someone is invisible, but still they are untargetable

KinetikaJun 22, 20165 votes

I second the notion that season 5 vision should be brought back. Not really sure why it was altered.

The really confusing thing is that Riot initially said they wanted vision to be a bigger part of the game that everyone used. The season 5 vision changes came along and things were pretty good.

Then they removed or changed much of what worked. As a jungler, I loved the upgraded trinket that gave pink wards. That was phenomenal.

Now, you're lucky if supports build a warding item, and luckier still if anyone else on your team buys a pink or wards at all after the 20 minute mark.

Sugar MommaJun 22, 20162 votes

League has turned into a clown fiesta..

DrugsForRobotsJun 22, 20165 votes

I see everyone jumping on the 'we need access to more pinks!' bandwagon, but access to more Pink Wards doesn't address any of the underlying issues of stealth!

The Vision Ward and other instances of True Sight counter stealthed, no one is debating that, but it's terrible for the person playing stealth because there is virtually no counterplay to the instant speed True SIght AoE that the Vision Ward provides! And yes, I know stealth is frustrating to play against, but the answer isn't just 'more true sight'.

Why is stealth so oppressive? The answer, as far as I can tell, is that there is virtually no counterplay inherent to stealth. The tell-tale signs, audio cues, particle effects, and telegraphing on the stealth abilities in League are few and far in between. Wouldn't it behoove Riot to give clever and astute players a chance to spot roughly where a stealthed champion is? Wouldn't such clues instantly make stealth weaker? The Sweeping Lens is a great first step with it's silhouette effect - why doesn't Riot give us more options like this?

Another great example of what I'm talking about is Rek'Sai's Tremor Sense, as it grants info without providing targetability - a very real trade-off. If Riot introduced more detection effects, in addition to giving stealth inherent counterplay, wouldn't stealth be even weaker?

What about the nearsight mechanic? It is effectively psuedo-stealth (it provides untargetability) which is neat, but interestingly it isn't countered by True Sight. If Riot where to introduce more forms and variety of nearsight, then True Sight would be relatively weaker as there would be more than one type of 'sight based trickery' for players to contend with.

Likewise, if Riot gave us a greater variety of vision options, each unique and special in its own way, they could make the vision game much more dynamic, much more interactive.

And if stealth is made weaker by introducing more detection effects, more diverse vision options, and giving inherent counterplay to stealth, wouldn't that give Riot room to give the stealth crew the QoL buffs that they deserve?

Consider that none of the MOBAs or 'hero shooters' that have come out recently (Overwatch, DotA2, HotS, Paragon, VainGlory, Gigantic, Battleborn, Smite, HoN, etc.) really explore the possibilities of the vision game! League is poised to be the first! Riot, please!

nami tfJun 23, 20161 votes

give this man a cookie

ForeverLaxxJun 23, 20161 votes

Dota never has to "explore the possibilities of the vision game" because they did it years before League was even a fever dream of a crazed madman and already figured it out.

It's Riot that can't get their act together. They can't decide what the balance of stealth vs vision should be, and the underlying design of the item system prohibits players from realizing the correct strategy is to use a Pink Ward as your "sixth item", so they demand some outside answer to the problem.

Choosing Dota was a very bad example. Stealth is often a weakness in that game, not a strength, until it's team-wide stealth or Slark's ult (which isn't true stealth anyway).

Ace Access Jun 22, 20162 votes

as a Twitch player I support this

give us an extra slot for the pink ward... we have one for yellow/red/blue so an extra one for pinky would be nice... heck stealth champs are deadliest when you don't have space for pink wards

General Esdeath Jun 22, 20162 votes

This is why I miss the old pink trinket upgrade, it was so helpful when dealing with invisible junglers or Teemo/Twitch in lane.

Jesus Is My KingJun 22, 20162 votes

think most of you guys need to get over it, you sacrifice vision for full build. how much more op do you wanna be against shaco, teemo, akali, thats bs. if you have an extra slot. you will be so op. that no one would play stealth champs ever again. if you did your stupid.

SwiftKitten88Jun 22, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=The 1st Angel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kOY0PhBJ,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2016-06-22T20:23:53.925+0000)

think most of you guys need to get over it, you sacrifice vision for full build. how much more op do you wanna be against shaco, teemo, akali, thats bs. if you have an extra slot. you will be so op. that no one would play stealth champs ever again. if you did your stupid.

the entire balanced around stealth champs is the ability to USE pink wards. not having the ability to pink ward REMOVES that balance and the built in counterplay designed into that champ.

DrugsForRobotsJun 22, 20162 votes

Using an external item to counter a specific champion's ability set is, by definition, NOT 'built in counterplay designed into that champ'.

Inherent counterplay to stealth would be, for example, Shaco's Q puff of smoke and the cackle he gives off whenever he goes invisible. Another example is Rengar's ult SFX and ! icon. Hell, even Evelynn's passive has built in counterplay in the form of seeing her ghostly visage if she gets too close. Most forms of invisibility in League lack anything like the above, which is what makes stealth so frustrating.

Pink Wards alone aren't, and will never be, enough to 'balance' stealth.

The only thing that can make stealth fair and fun for everyone is the inclusion of more diverse forms of sight, stealth, detection, and denial, each instance being unique and with different quirks for different situations.

LithiumWednesdayJun 24, 20162 votes

Again, bringing back the pink ward trinket upgrade probably wouldn't be a bad idea. You get a pink ward every so often at the cost of a sweeper or farsight.

SchàdenfreudeJun 22, 20161 votes

Thats the point. Just how QSS was highly deterimental to Zed, pink wards are a huge counter to stealth champions. The stealth is a part of a champion's kit, and removing that advantage would mean that they would highly become a niche champion.

INoble KnightIJun 22, 20162 votes

You mean the ONLY counter to stealth champs?

SchàdenfreudeJun 22, 20161 votes

[zombie-brand-facepalm] LeeSin there are also other champs, I'm pretty, sure. Too lazy to put them. there's also this item 3341

INoble KnightIJun 22, 20163 votes

How does Lee counter them? Also I think Rek'Sai may counter with her passive.

ShyvauniJun 22, 20161 votes

The second cast on Lee Sin's E(ithink its his E anyways) is a small aoe that reveals stealthed champions.

EddardStark84Jun 25, 20161 votes

Right but that still doesn't "counter" stealth champs.

ShyvauniJun 25, 20161 votes

An ability that forces stealthed champions out of stealth is not a counter how?

EddardStark84Jun 25, 20161 votes

Wait what? How would you know they were there in the first place? That's kind of the point.

ShyvauniJun 25, 20161 votes

Alot of the stealth chanps will stealth mud fight yo cuase confusion or reposition. Also a thing called intuition. A situational counter is still a counter.

DrugsForRobotsJun 22, 20161 votes

It's not the only counter, but it is one of the harshest.

Also, the number of abilities that interact with stealth is approximately a dozen, and the number of items is like 2-3.

All of those are pretty harsh counters too. It's a sad state of affairs. :(

EunsonJun 23, 20161 votes

Can't you upgrade the yellow trinket to drop pinks still?

ShadowatomJun 23, 20163 votes

Nope

GigglingAngelJun 23, 20161 votes

I imagine the reason why they haven't made an 8th slot specifically for pink wards is because it would significantly nerf certain champions who depend on it (Akali, Eve, and Twitch for the most part). However, these champions seem rather underwhelming (to me, at least), and I bet it's because of that specific power budget working around their stealth. However, giving everyone that 8th slot for pink wards would give Riot good reason to buff champions like Akali, Eve, and Twitch in ways that they could really benefit from. Plus, people might actually start to use pink wards more when they see a slot that they haven't filled, yet.

But, of course ... they won't do anything like that, because they have a habit of ignoring their fanbase, even when doing such a thing just leads to pissed off fans who choose not to put any more money in the game (like me).

SwiftKitten88Jun 23, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I imagine the reason why they haven't made an 8th slot specifically for pink wards is because it would significantly nerf certain champions who depend on it (Akali, Eve, and Twitch for the most part). However, these champions seem rather underwhelming (to me, at least), and I bet it's because of that specific power budget working around their stealth. However, giving everyone that 8th slot for pink wards would give Riot good reason to buff champions like Akali, Eve, and Twitch in ways that they could really benefit from. Plus, people might actually start to use pink wards more when they see a slot that they haven't filled, yet.

But, of course ... they won't do anything like that, because they have a habit of ignoring their fanbase, even when doing such a thing just leads to pissed off fans who choose not to put any more money in the game (like me).

its nerf to stealthed champs at all, you can buy pink wards all game and all stealthed champs are balanced around that. that fact that late game you CANT buy pinkwards just removes the built in counterplay that is designed to deal with stealthed champs