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So. Tristana.

Hellioning··30 votes·3,211 views

Riot should buff Trist. This isn't really up for debate. She is currently rocking an abysmal winrate, worst amongst ADCs by a large margin. Why is she so bad, and what should Riot do to fix this? Here are my thoughts:

A) That base attack speed is abysmal. I get it, she has a free attack speed steroid. But her early CSing before she gets it is terrible, and the cooldown is so long it doesn't help nearly as much as you wish it would. And, because attack speed is scaled based on base attack speed, it's not nearly as strong as it looks.

B) Trist suffers from the Ashe problem, in that in a bot lane that is currently dominated by a lot of champions with a good amount of burst (graves, draven, jinx maybe) she doesn't really have any. She does do a lot of damage, but it requires four autoattacks on the same target, something that she may not be able to afford. Unlike Ashe, she doesn't have a lot of utility to compensate.

C) She has a kit that encourages the ADC to throw themselves bodily into the enemy team. This isn't neccesarily a problem, but people already use Valkyrie/arcane shift/whatever to go in so this is just going to encourage bad play. Hell, I do this myself.

I'd bump up her attack speed back to pre-rework levels, or at least 2% per level. I'd either lower the amount of attacks needed for a full E to three or change the numbers so that a fully stacked E does the same amount of damage but a non-stacked E does more, so you don't feel bad opening up with E and having your opponent gapclose away for pitiful damage.

111 Comments

Rebonack13 votes

I'm honestly still annoyed that Riot nerfed her range.

Super long range auto-attacks was her thing. She and Koggy were the go-to hyper-scalers before Jinx muscled into their territory.

And pointing out that Trist has a bad win-rate doesn't give the situation justice. Koggy, for example, has a pretty meh win-rate. But if you only look at players with 100+ games of Kog experience, his win rate actually isn't that bad at all. He's just difficult to use properly.

With Trist, though? She just improves from 'total shit' to 'mostly shit' when taking only experienced players into account. Riot seriously under-shot Trist's power level when they remade her. The worst thing about it is that Riot is apparently totally okay with Jinx running rough-shod over the whole ADC roster, but Trist isn't allowed to be viable.

Hellioning2 votes

True; I did see that her winrate raises to 49% for people who have played 150% games on her, which is kinda sad in and of itself.

Nilok5 votes

Ya, honestly if your passive that takes the entire game to activate Tristana, it shouldn't be weaker than an ability that activates at level 8-9 Jinx.

Nilok9 votes

Wow, we just had an anti-Tristana crusader come through and down vote the whole thread and not even post anything.

This may be part of the problem with getting Tristana fixed or seen by Riot, there seems to be a small, but active enough group on the forums who don't want Tristana to be made balanced.

afmghost8 votes

{quoted}

Wow, we just had an anti-Tristana crusader come through and down vote the whole thread and not even post anything.

This may be part of the problem with getting Tristana fixed or seen by Riot, there seems to be a small, but active enough group on the forums who don't want Tristana to be made balanced.

Here is my question: Why is Tristy under attack without a case made against her? Was she OP before the remake? Possibly, but now she's far too weak. I personally believe that she was butchered, not nerfed. Either way, I'll cancel those downvotes for you.

Nilok2 votes

Ya, I don't want Trist to be OP or an "I win" champion, but have a clear, fun role who sits at a 49-50% win rate so I don't feel like I am bringing my team down by playing her.

Rew7112 votes

And yet, Twitch waits patiently for his turn. Sure he has invisibility, but its not as great as free AS (Tristana's best ability). Tristana is weak, yes, but she has more with a rocket jump and explosive. Twitch has a slow and a E that goes from early useful thing to late game "what is this even here for". I like both Trist's R and Twitch's and though I want to see Tristana get a buff, I'm still waiting for Twitch to get something because even his passive is pointless.

Ahurath2 votes

I think she kinda was fine to be honest. Sure her lategame was very very good and she did alot of damage then. But the thing was that she had a bad laning phase already and now she got an even worse one and with worse scaling then before.

SIayton9 votes

Its honestly her dueling potential. Unless she's fed she literally can't make eye contact with the enemy ADC without dying.

She's fun when she gets ahead but her early game is just not threatening enough. IMO they should just get rid of AP trist and give rocket jump AD scaling, then her all in bomb + 4 autos + rocket jump combo would HURT and wouldn't need points into W to make it do damage.

Nilok2 votes

Ya, if Rocket Jump did have an AD scaling, having the "Assassin" monicker would make a bit more sense on her.

Sona Ping2 votes

But what you are missing is that if Tristana was to be given AD scaling, then her base damages would be reduced to compensate for it. Which would make her early game even less threatening than whatever level it is at now. This is something a lot of people don't understand but they need to as evidenced by those stupid "Switch Talon and Ashe Passive" threads or the one that suggested nerfs to ADs like Fortune to "help" them.

SIayton1 votes

The problem with W right now is its not even good early as a damaging ability. You HAVE to build AP for it to do meaningful damage.

Nilok1 votes

Ya, they tried to keep AP Trist alive in the rework, but removed Explosive Shot which it relied on and ended up leaving both AP and ADC terrible. I'm surprised they didn't do what they did with Yi and just give it AD scaling.

Sona Ping1 votes

That's because they chose the numbers based on the idea that you would be using W with the multiplier. And that doesn't effect what I wrote; Riot would still use the potential for damage based on said idea of theirs and lower it anyway. The damage from switching it to AD scaling would be considered "extra" damage that would now have to be compensated for on AD builds.

Mandang07 votes

One thing that doesn't get brought up nearly enough when discussing Trist's strength is her absurd cooldowns on her trading spells. Once upon a time, this was part of her unique powercurve - strong early, weak mid, strong late - but now it's just hamstringing her. Like you said, her new E forces Tris to play all-in, which isn't a great idea most of the time. I wish they'd put less of her power budget in the stacking mechanic and give her some lategame power back w/ attack speed buffs.

Hellioning2 votes

Also true! I don't mind W, since it has a reset on kill mechanic, but Q and E have way too long cooldowns.

Darth Pixy Misa3 votes

The highest her As growth has been was 4%. I think she was buffed from 3% to 4% in season 3.

Rinky Dinky3 votes

Give her the range back.

Her passive is useless now. Before it ment something to reach level 11. Now, it's just like "Hey, I have as much range as I would have at level one!"

Nilok2 votes

Ya, the range nerf hurt a lot, especially with Jinx hitting Tristana's old range at level 8-9.

It was basically her signature to have the longest auto attack range in the game at 18, and it was taken away.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

If they don't want to overshoot her range in the laning phase, they could just have the scaling be non-linear.

Death by Kayn2 votes

See, Trist fills a niche pick that no other adcs full, and requires a very different approach to win, outside of luckily getting fed. This niche is the insane pushing potential she posseses. Trist cannot, however, utilize this well whatsoever, because a duo bot can easily freeze the lane and keep you wave away from the tower. Trist therefore needs to utilize a tactic often unheard of in yoloq: rotations. This allows for an extremely quick tower, and then she and her support rotates back to bot. The thing about Trist is that she is the least teamfight oriented adc in the game, and requires good team coordination for her to perform well. This is why she feels weak to you, and to many others, but is a valid pick in higher elos. But you may be right, maybe she does need some buffs. I personally disagree though

Hellioning4 votes

Your words have merit; One of my personal favorite Trist moments post rework was getting a gank for a double kill, killing their tower, then heading mid and killing THAT tower, all in about 2 minutes.

On the other hand, it's not like she's any better in higher elos, statistically; for plat+ players with 150+ ranked games on her, she's still rocking a 49% winrate, which is terrible for people of that combination.

F032 votes

were you not around for the past 3 buffs she got?

the reason no one is playing her is because the pros aren't doing it. If you took time to try and innovate yourself you would see she would not need a buff at all.

Nilok1 votes

What buffs? Oh, you mean the cross interaction with her Q and E that lowers each other cooldown slightly while increasing the cooldown of her E and not addressing the actual problems in her kit. Ya, no, haven't seen any meaningful buffs, let alone three, or even three buffs at all.

People are player her, almost as many people play Tristana as people play Draven, and more than Ashe, Kog, Twitch, MF, Quinn, or Varus. The problem is she is objectively worse than all of them, except maybe twitch, and she just got a full rework, so it is inexcusable that she is so terrible.

http://champion.gg/champion/Tristana/ADC

BestTristMyHaus2 votes

Most telling statistics: Win Rate (for ADCs): 18th out of 18 Overall Placement (for ADCs): 17th out of 18 Play rate (by Patch) - Declining every patch since 5.3

Personal favorite: Against top 5 champs that counter Trist: Top win rate is 44.6% (overall winrate across all 5, 42.1%) Against the top 5 champs THAT TRISTANA COUNTERS best winrate is 49.7% (overall winrate is 47.8%) (So, if you get "ideal" matchup against champs you counter, you're still seeing under 50% winrate)

(It also amuses me that her one positive ratio against supports is against Bard) XD

EDIT: also, her ONE thing that she's still "good" at is self-peel, as she's "above average" at number of deaths. Below average ADC (statistically) in ALL other categories.

Nilok1 votes

Honestly, it may be necessary to nerf her peel like the Knockback from her ult to get anything meaningful buffs at this point. Riot seems paralyzed that a good Tristana is bad for the game.

BestTristMyHaus1 votes

I'm probably in the minority, but I wouldn't mind nerfing the peel on her ult if she saw other gains out of it. Its useful, but at low elo, it probably hurts at LEAST as much as it helps by throwing off other plays within the team. I'm laughing at Jinx mains whining about the lovetap to her ult, seeing as I'd trade ults with Jinx in a second. I do wish Trist had a skillshot of some sort.

With her current comp, I wonder how it'd play out if they gave her an entirely new ult: "Kamikaze"/"Suicide Dive" - Tristana rocket jumps to a position and self destructs for 1000 (or whatever number) splash damage. With a GA or a good Zilean, she can inflict heavy damage and revive, without its just a big bomb. Opponents must choose between trying to tear her apart before she ults or run so she can't get them all.

Hellioning2 votes

She is rocking a 49% winrate for people in platinum+ that have more than 150 games on her. I severely doubt this is a lack of innovation keeping her down.

ZerglingOne2 votes

Yeah, and give her back her range she used to have. Wtf was the reasoning behind lowering it? Currently she's lower than Caitlyn until basically max level.

BestTristMyHaus2 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, and give her back her range she used to have. Wtf was the reasoning behind lowering it? Currently she's lower than Caitlyn until basically max level.

I can take her having a lower range than Caitlyn until late (that is Caitlyn's WHOLE identity), I'm just sick of the favoritism to Jinx. "oh, hay, let's give a champ a swappable buff that supercedes 2 of Tristana's abilities, by default, it's better than Trist's AS steroid, or toggle and you get better range than Tristana's passive. Oh, and just to make sure its totally fair, we'll give Jinx slightly more AD and a skillshot with double the range that slows." So, basically, you can poke with Zap and Fishbones, while blocking with chompers (which just HAPPEN to have the exact same range as Rocket Jump) and if anyone tries to jump in on you, you just swap to PowPow which at max is faster than Rapid Fire at max and if they run after you poke em down to really low, you can execute with your ult.

Caitlyn is certainly annoying, but if you can close on her, at least then you have a clear advantage. (unless you're just way behind, in which case you SHOULD be at a disadvantage to anyone)

shadecrapper1 votes

She could be worked a little. But I think it could also just be the META were in.

Nilok1 votes

I don't really see that relating to the metagame. Ez is really the only ADC to have a big drop in win rate. Most of the other popular ADC's win rates are about the same and Jinx, the Tristana replacement hyper carry, had her win rate going up.

BestTristMyHaus2 votes

Jinx is way too overloaded, always has been.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

i remember what trist was like when she was strong. no thank you.

she still has an anti melee kit, that makes lategame tristana practically impossible to reach without even a support by her side. remove the knockback on her ult, then she could get some buffs to her early game.

as long as she has too many kiting mechanics stacked on top of each other, i consider her in the same boat as vayne. she needs to be trash early. if she wasnt, it would be too easy for her to reach her overpowered lategame state and she would be too good overall.

all lategame hypercarries tend to suffer from an abysmal early game that compensates for their lategame strength. on the other hand, its the same trashy early game that makes them not worth picking and lose most games, before they even reach the state where they shine.

which leads me to doubt the entire concept of lategame hypercarries. it should just be thrown out the window. after 5 years, its pretty obvious that it doesnt work very well.

Hellioning1 votes

Even when she reaches lategame, a Trist only has 47% winrate. She's obviously not doing the hypercarry job very well.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Even when she reaches lategame, a Trist only has 47% winrate. She's obviously not doing the hypercarry job very well.

lol no. she has a 47% win rate exactly because she doesnt manage to reach lategame and usually loses lane. if her early game was stronger, she would snoball easier into her hypercarry lategame status and own the game.

weve already seen that.

Lt Cuddles1 votes

This might be silly, feel free to say so, but what if her rocket jump gave her a defensive buff, like increased armor/magic resist for each enemy champ she landed on? Or damage reduction? Could this help out?

Hellioning2 votes

Maybe. She still would be quite squishy to jump into the enemy team, but it'd probably help early in lane, which is where she had the most trouble.

Lt Cuddles1 votes

Just a little something to help, a defensive reward for her getting that close just seems appropriate.

Nilok2 votes

Ya, that could be helpful since Riot nerfed her base defenses, but her survivability isn't a problem right now, just everything else.

Lt Cuddles2 votes

Give back some of the lost range, maybe?

BestTristMyHaus2 votes

This is her biggest issue. Too many champs can outrange her early and a few can still even do it late. Plus I think it's ridiculous that Jinx gets to swap between the AS steroid and range. Basically she can easily trade with Tristana at all levels (having a clear advantage early) and once Trist withdraws she can just swap back to AS to farm. I like Tristana's kit, but when her "range increase" passive max is beat out by other champs at lvl 1, its kinda worthless. Plus, if her max range at 18 was more effective, Trist would be better as a "team fight ADC" than she currently is.

FalconPawwwwnch1 votes

Yea no

How about when they give trist some actual counterplay they can buff her a little

I don't wanna go back to pick trist or autolose

Hellioning3 votes

Counterplay BESIDES jump on her and blow her up?

Seriously, if you're complaining about Trist lacking counterplay, you must hate, like, every ADC besides Kogmaw.

Gunslinger7441 votes

I don't know, Tristana is weird. I feel her E active should have a bit more AD scaling, maybe 0.2-0.3. Maybe her AS growth needs to be a bit higher. I've only played her once and fed horribly so I guess I can't really add to the discussion here.

Nilok1 votes

Your input is still useful. First time reactions are usually a good sign on how well a design goes. If someone has to stare at a painting for a long to enjoy it, it is more them convincing themselves they like it. Tristana should be a much easier champion that Draven, but instead, is much harder to play simply because she doesn't have much power in her kit.

I take it, based on your suggestions, that your biggest problems was Explosive Charge wasn't dealing effective damage for the effort put into it and it was harder to last hit/trade due to the low attack speed?

Gunslinger7442 votes

Well, I was horribly behind all game. But I expected Explosive Charge to chunk the enemy adc for a good 20% when it exploded through 4 autoattacks instead of the timer. And the attack speed wasn't that much of a problem, I play Draven a lot and barely ever build a lot of attack speed anyway. It just felt really extraordinarily slow.

Nilok1 votes

Ya, the base and scaling on her moves are terrible and leave most champs only a little stung and nothing to tanks. I did the numbers, and Explosive Charge is only worth two auto attacks worth of damage, or less than a single Infinity Edge crit worth of damage full stacked. The fact a move with a long cooldown and required 4 attacks to fully charges does so little damage is laughable from a design and balance standpoint.

Agreed, her attack speed is atrocious and her attack speed buff does not last long enough or is up often enough. The only one with similar attack speed is Jinx, and she has a passive in her kit that lets her boost her attack speed at no cost or cooldown.

Nilok1 votes

Looks like Tristana is finally getting a buff on the PBE... and it just applies the cooldown interaction for Q's Explosive Charge passive to Turrets as well as champions.

So in other words, a nearly worthless buff that still doesn't address the real problems of the kit and trying to force her to be "the tower pusher" when other ADC can do it better. Are they just stubborn or blind?

Fitz n The Fool2 votes

{quoted}

Looks like Tristana is finally getting a buff on the PBE... and it just applies the cooldown interaction for Q's Explosive Charge passive to Turrets as well as champions.

So in other words, a nearly worthless buff that still doesn't address the real problems of the kit and trying to force her to be "the tower pusher" when other ADC can do it better. Are they just stubborn or blind?

Uh, basically they dont give 2 shits about player feedback. They do whatever the fuck they want to.

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