What are the point of the Karma changes? I enjoy being able to pick her into certain solo lanes, and she can be a mediocre support. All this is going to do is make her better at supporting in exchange for murdering her solo power.
Do you only want her to be support? She's not exactly AP Janna or Soraka levels of annoying in solo lanes, I'm not sure why you're trying to push her out of those.
Gapybo55 votesWhy isn't he acknowledging Karma wasn't supposed to be a support in the first place, she is a mage/support, she should be able to solo. He is taking all the fun out of her kit, all the duality aspects, she was originally designed to have a damage and support part of her abilities and these changes completely ignore that. He is removing all the versatility for a solo lane Karma. The only damaging ability left is her Q. Just stop and leave her alone. She is balanced at the moment, there are no QQs for nerfs or buffs.
Teridax686 votesJust stop and leave her alone. She is balanced at the moment, there are no QQs for nerfs or buffs.
The issue isn't about 
's balance, and reworks aren't about balancing champions. The issue with Karma, whether it's as a support or a solo mage, is that her Mantra + Q trumps both of her other empowered abilities. Karma doesn't need additional damage on her shield or even on her tether, and that damage is preventing her from making those effects as powerful as they could be. Even without these, Karma would still deal above-average damage for a support, especially since her RQ would still be her premium damage spell. If anything, these changes would be adding more versatility to her kit, since empowering any ability would bring out the best of its unique contribution (Q for extra damage, W for extra CC, and E for extra utility).
aquaticwonder12 votesThe thing is she isn't Janna or Soraka. She is Karma. She is primarily a mage and secondary a support. Much like Zyra and Lux.
You can't just take away all that damage from her and still expect to her to maintain the mage identity, which is what we are unhappy with. Why gut solo lane Karma just to make (the already good) support Karma better?
Teridax682 votesBut that's the thing: she still has damage where it counts. She still has the poke that defines her laning phase, and her Mantra'd Q hasn't been touched. Using Mantra on any other ability even now will cause you to lose damage, so it doesn't matter all that much whether or not a damage rotation that doesn't involve RQ deals the most damage. Even after these changes, Karma will have the poking power of a mage, and will be able to output the exact same damage on a RQ rotation. She'd also have stronger crowd control and utility, though, which would help her shine better in both her mage and support playstyles.
Hellioning4 votesBut the damage on R-E gives her more consistent damage in a teamfight instead of R-Q quick can be blocked and has a lower radius. And the loss of the burst heal on R-W is going to murder her ability to all-in.
Teridax681 votesThe self-heal is still there, on top of the new extended root, and the only change is the removal of the extra damage. I also don't think the point of RE was ever to land consistent damage: it was kept at first only because of pre-overhaul Karma's shield bomb, and I don't think it was ever an interesting effect to start with, so it would be better for its empowered version to be a full-on mega-shield than a slightly less powerful shield with a bit of damage.
Hellioning3 votesHow is 'shield with damage' a less interesting effect to 'big shield'? I think Karma's the only shield will damage to be castable on other people, which is pretty unique.
Sightless663 votesAnd the loss of the burst heal on R-W is going to murder her ability to all-in.
The heal is untouched on the PBE right now. It was not present in the previous PBE iteration, but they added it back in for this one. The R-W lost the bonus damage and gained the extra root duration.
Hellioning2 votesHuh, I guess S@20 was just confusing. Thanks.
That's much better.
Vistha Kai15 votesThe issue with Karma, whether it's as a support or a solo mage, is that her Mantra + Q trumps both of her other empowered abilities. Karma doesn't need additional damage on her shield or even on her tether, and that damage is preventing her from making those effects as powerful as they could be.
Except those changes are enforcing RQ as the only Mantra usage.
There is no incentive to use RW as is on PBE - if you are in position to cast it you could permaslow them with Q instead - and using RE gibs Karma's teamfighting potential - "I just gave you shield, better win 'cuz I have nothing left to do".
Teridax684 votesBut the strength to RE or RW was never their damage: RE is a supercharged combination of 
+ 
, and on live the damage is often wasted, since the situations that favor it (e.g. mid-combat brawls) are never the situations where Karma would want to Mantra + E, which is usually at the start or end of fights. I'm not entirely a fan of the self-heal removal on RW (EDIT: Never mind, it's still there, thankfully), but a 3.5-second root is stronger than any slow, and would be a guaranteed kill on practically any champion you manage to land it on (
's 3-second root is already a death sentence in the late game). RQ would remain a strong poke and area denial ability, but the greater differentiation between other Mantra effects would mean there would be clear situations in which you'd want to empower other abilities besides Q (a Mantra+Q wouldn't be too good at pinning down an assassin, for example, or initiating a fight).
Vistha Kai12 votesThere was a great differentiation between Mantra effects before Karma was homogenized with the relaunch, which shouldn't happen in the first place.
Teridax685 votesFor all the nostalgia surrounding old Karma, I don't think her original kit was really that good. Aside from the fact that her previous Mantra was severely diluted, her abilities were a) really confusing and hard to make full use of, especially her W, and b) only truly good in really abusive cases, namely when she shield-bombed targets when low on health. Few people played Karma or even knew she existed until she got overhauled, and if she had survived until now, people would be clamoring for a rework.
Vistha Kai5 votesYou assume the ultimate outcome would be the same.
It wouldn't. Yasuo, Kalista, Bard, Azir, Rek'Sai. They have "really confusing and hard to make full use of" abilities too, but that isn't a problem.
Riot took Karma out of free rotation. Who's at fault nobody knew what Karma did? Actually false. I bought Karma, pick her and a level 15 guy knew exactly what Karma could do. He picked a bruiser and we went bot. Free win.
In case of Karma slight rebalancement or better visuals would fix the issue. With passive I agree that it was out of place, but other than that her kit wasn't as bad as people(or rather Riot) were making it out to be.
Teridax684 votesI completely disagree with all of the champions you mentioned having confusing abilities. Sure, some of them have pretty loaded kits (especially 
, 
and 
), and some of them have more complex mechanics than the average champion (e.g. 
or 
), but in the end, their abilities give very clear indications of what they do, so that even if it's your first time playing as that champion or against them, you can get the gist of their kit at a glance. By contrast, Karma's old tether mechanic was really hard to read, and the variable AP on her passive also made it extremely difficult to gauge her power. None of her abilities truly synergized with each other, and often her Mantra effects didn't even properly synergize with themselves (her RQ, especially, was difficult to use in teamfights, when it should've been optimal). Literally all of her abilities and mechanics needed a redo, and for all the hate Rito received, I think they did the best job they could in trying to recapture the feel of her old kit, even if she turned into a completely different champion.
Vistha Kai8 votesI think they did the best job they could in trying to recapture the feel of her old kit, even if she turned into a completely different champion.
Then the conclusion is they failed big time.
Karma was released in 2011. Was changed 4 times in the immediate patches after her release. The thing is if any of those champions I mentioned were to be released then, they'd be in the same spot Karma was.
The thing is her kit wasn't inherently bad as you say or not enough to be completely smited. Mantra was suppose to give an ability an opposite effect. Heavenly Wave deals damage to enemies. What's the opposite? Healing allies. Soul Shield protected an ally. The opposite? Hurting enemies. Then there was Spirit Bond which Mantra was lackluster, that's true.
What Mantra does now? Q slows and damages. RQ slows more and damages more. E shields and speeds up. RE shields more and speeds up more. And there comes W that is actually the only remnant of true Karma. Deals damage and Mantra'd version heals.
Teridax684 votesI agree, empowering an ability into its opposite might be thematically interesting, but in terms of gameplay it just gave all of Karma's abilities conflicting uses. Despite this, however, modern Karma still retains a lot of her duality as a support/mage hybrid, and a champion who provides powerful bursts of both damage and utility to her team. All of her abilities have more depth and visible power than anything in her old kit, and even on live have pretty clear uses, as well as optimal use cases. The changes she's receiving simply take that further.
As for the champions you mentioned receiving reworks in the future, I'm no soothsayer, but I doubt they'd receive any changes as extensive as Karma's, at least not in the future. Perhaps their kits might get tweaked or rebalanced, or maybe they might even get slightly more in-depth changes (Yasuo seems like the most likely candidate), but otherwise they have healthy core gameplay, and hold up to Riot's standards of design, which are far more stringent and far better-supported than they were back in 2011. Seeing how Rito's been stabilizing their design philosophy and focusing on applying them to their fullest extent to older content over the past three years, I think those champions would be safe for a very long time.
Solidair33 votesThe self heal on r+w stays in the current iteration, she is only losing bonus damage
Narasimha4 votesThere is no incentive to use RW as is on PBE - if you are in position to cast it you could permaslow them with Q instead
To be fair, that's a solo lane mentality. The other way to look at is it that now RW gives both Karma and her ADC access to strong sustain with a bit of coordination.
Vistha Kai2 votesBecause 90% of the community IS solo queue? There is nothing wrong with abilities that require coordination, but with this change Riot takes mid Karma, places her under to a wall and shoots in the head.
Narasimha2 votesBecause 90% of the community IS solo queue?
Solo LANE, not que mate.
Hinagiku335 votesTo be fair, we're talking about solo lane Karma so...yeah. People like to play Karma in solo lanes like top and mid, so it only makes sense that they'd be miffed if Riot was trying to nerf their play style out of viability.
aquaticwonder2 votes[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TaKwsU3I,comment-id=000200000002,timestamp=2015-05-15T22:58:43.058+0000)
Except those changes are enforcing RQ as the only Mantra usage.
There is no incentive to use RW as is on PBE - if you are in position to cast it you could permaslow them with Q instead - and using RE gibs Karma's teamfighting potential - "I just gave you shield, better win 'cuz I have nothing left to do".
THIS PERSON GETS IT BLESS YOU.
Yosuke Apperu2 votesI don't know why you got downvoted into oblivion bro... God forbid you share your opinion in the presence of karma mains... karma does have base values that are too damn high at the moment as well, she's an awesome champ, and this will make it so that people playing her actually mantra abilities besides q (hopefully) The amount of times that ive saved my team mates from a mantra shield instead of just using mantra q... more people should play for their team if they have a shield like that
Teridax681 votesI completely agree. I've often seen Karmas use Mantra on nothing but Q the entire span of a match, even in situations where RW or RE were far better options. This set of changes would give those abilities much clearer roles, as well as give Karma the potential to use Mantra far more often. With the AP ratio buff to her W, Karma's also going to have more potential damage, even if she loses some on her empowered W and E. As a jungler main, I'm also happy to see Karma's tether made usable on monsters, as it could potentially make jungle Karma a thing. Despite the general opinion here, I think these changes are going to be a pretty big buff to Karma, and when I tested her on the PBE she felt a lot stronger (Mantra has a lot more uptime).
At this point on these boards, I don't think downvotes are that serious or meaningful. They're intended to be used on off-topic or toxic posts, but pretty much everyone uses them on posts they disagree with, so having 21+ downvotes on a thread like this just means 21+ people didn't agree with what I said. Rito proposed removing downvotes completely at some point because of this, though that would also carry its own problems (reporting genuinely non-contributive posts would be a lot more difficult).
Creamy Seaman26 votesagreed they need to stop fucking with champs that are ok
1000angrybees13 votesI really hope these changes dont go through. Theyre the worst changes to a champ who especially doesnt deserve it that I've seen in a long time.
aquaticwonder7 votesWhy are we even changing her?!?!?!
Yorukin6 votesThe point of these changes seems to be to put a little more value and diversity into her abilities that aren't her Q. Karma has good utility overall, sure, but she's primarily a poke mage. Having a damage amplifier/lifesteal marker attached to her W, as well as the more accessible shield, will hugely increase her support viability, while leaving her mage tendencies (read: Q) fairly untouched. Adding in the ability to jungle efficiently and increasing the later Mantra availability are also nice benefits.
The main tradeoffs are that she's losing her instant AoE nuke (keeping the stronger delayed one, mind you) and some of her dueling potential, which is still pretty damn high for a mage. Honestly, I'm okay with this. Karma's fun to play, but I'm kinda sick of becoming just a walking RQ in the late game.
Hellioning4 votesBut it's also reducing her damage by a fair bit in situations where R-Q is not the right option; R-W lost it's bonus damage and R-E simply now has no damage whatsoever. Her poking is still fine, but she now does less damage in a teamfight unless the entire enemy team is nice enough to stand in R-Q.
Wheatloaf3 votesYou have to sacrifice damage for utility, and frankly there are plenty of champions that advertise high AoE damage in teamfights. A high-power AoE shield or a high-power target root? Not so much.
Hellioning3 votesShe already had those things. They're just removing stuff so they could make those even stronger, which I feel is a bad decision.
Wheatloaf2 votesThis shouldn't straight up kill her solo lane potential (though I'm not sure about the newest changes removing her W heal entirely), and her more interesting aspects were always her support-y ones. Though I don't play Karma, so I can only speak from an outside perspective, and anything I say on her should be taken with a grain of salt.
Hellioning2 votesThis will ruin most of her solo lane potential besides 'kill them when you have poked them down with Q.' R-W was necessary for most all ins because she is a squishy mage; the burst heal was incredibly important. Now it's basically useless.
Kaipop16 votesHer damage amplifier/lifesteal marker is gone as of today. Her ability to use W on monsters is gone as of today, so she can't jungle efficiently anymore. So is the bonus damage on her Mantra W. And good Karma players definitely used Mantra Q the most, but made sure to use W and E almost as much late game. This is a pure gutting to her midlane while not even buffing her support by a huge amount.
Avious6 votesThere are so many threads by Karma players, both support and mage, two of which are mine, that point out why those changes are garbage. Unfortunately, I doubt they will revert anything...
aquaticwonder7 votesI feel like the same thing happened with the same exact champion almost 2 years ago now.
I feel so alienated and ignored.
Kaipop5 votesCompletely balanced champion. Too bad Riot ignores us and these changes will go through. I've never been so angry about a "balance" change.
Erockandroll3 votesI'm alright with the changes. It better focuses her ability to support and poke while removing some of the extra power that really didn't define her. And everything their is going to end up being a net buff. (inducing her midlane.)
Hellioning8 votesHow, exactly, is massively reducing her dueling power with R-W and AoE burst with R-E going to be a net buff to her midlane?
Wheatloaf2 votesYou can pick a mid laner for reasons other than dueling power and AoE burst, you know...
Hellioning4 votesI'm aware. I'm just saying that both of those things are going to hurt mid Karma, who is expected to do damage and survive thanks to W, more than support Karma.
Tulare3 votesI'd argue that dealing damage and surviving thanks to W is not the defining characteristic of a midlane Karma. I happen to be a big fan of mages with some utility that can easily switch between solo midlane and support botlane. I've played a lot of Morgana and Orianna and a decent amount of Karma and Annie. My roots are planted in that support role, though. Of course I appreciate changes that let me support harder. I like that they're trying to provide more and better options for higher-utility, lower-damage champs that can still play roles beside support. By contributing a little more utility and a little less damage from mid-lane, maybe that allows somebody in another role to take a little less utility and a little more damage.
Champions' strengths exist on a spectrum. While teams have a budget that needs to buy a little bit of everything, I think it's legitimate for them to get those features in unusual ways. As long as they don't emphasize Karma's utility so much that she becomes completely unviable as a midlaner, then I see this change as metagame liberating, not metagame enforcing.
Nahara3 votesThese changes make me realize how the players of Old Karma felt when she was updated. These changes don't sound fun and remove a lot of what I like about current Karma.
banthor112 votesYeah, its sucks to have a champion you enjoy get crushed in an unreasonable manner. I believe it was stated in one of the major Old Karma vs. Skarma threads some 2 years ago that showing a lack of solidarity in the community would only ensure repeat incidents with other champions. Its somewhat ironic that of such cases occurring Karma would be on the list again. Again, my condolences to those who enjoyed the present Karma and any other champions that get "Karma'd".
Also, as much of a surprise as what happened to Old Karma was, at least its not as bad as Poppy players who have known champion destruction is imminent but not when for like 4 years now (me being one of them).
SnazzyTheMister2 votesi would like to point out a few things i feel a being over looked (at least from what i can tell):
.9 ratio on w is compensation for removing the added .6 from manta w (manta w has a 1.2 ratio on live)
e is getting a lower cd (down to 6 seconds at max rank) with max cdr its close to 4 seconds and the shield lasts for 4 seconds
its a little confusing cus there was 2 rounds of changes within a day or so of each other but over all this seems like we are trading aoe damage from manta e to give us morg snare levels on manta w. if that is the extent of the changes it seems like a good move.
Newb the Legend1 votesi would like to point out a few things i feel a being over looked (at least from what i can tell):
.9 ratio on w is compensation for removing the added .6 from manta w (manta w has a 1.2 ratio on live)
e is getting a lower cd (down to 6 seconds at max rank) with max cdr its close to 4 seconds and the shield lasts for 4 seconds
its a little confusing cus there was 2 rounds of changes within a day or so of each other but over all this seems like we are trading aoe damage from manta e to give us morg snare levels on manta w. if that is the extent of the changes it seems like a good move.
I think they are transferring the power to different areas to make her other mantras more powerful so that q isn't always the BEST choice and her mantras become more situational and are more versatile so she can have good damage, good cc, and a good team shield
For Carthage2 votesHonestly? These changes seem to be sliding her into being one of the most annoying tanks in the game.
Lowest cooldown shield now. It gets buffed on her low cooldown ult by a bloody lot. Highest base shield now in fact. And, again, now spammable. Try building her bruiser/mage and see how obnoxious she can be.
Terchio1 votesWait... when were Janna and Soraka sololane contenders? Janna I can buy, maybe, but even that is quite lackluster unless the enemy chases your annoying kiting abilities. Not enough burst, even if you hit it all, and your AoE is situationally useful if you can land it, and Zephyr is single-target and drops your kiting performance, so pretty much a finisher at best. Her max combo does a whopping 545 (+115% AP) damage, of course excluding E AD buff, but come on, she's taking a solo lane. She needs reliable CC and burst to take up a full solo lane.
Then Soraka... Maybe before rework (I used to main skirmisher Soraka), but not now. E is near impossible to hit. W does miniscule self-heal only sololane unless ganked for, but she has situational CC, so ganks are semi-reliable anyway. Q can be harass, but is easy to dodge, and hard to follow up anyway. Even Q-E combo is pitifully weak to the point that the enemy will take it and charge you, and not care any unless you happen to have a jungler perfectly situated. Her max combo damage is 805 (+137.5% AP), most of which on E, which is risky to upgrade with its high cooldowns and low reliability. This also assumes PERFECT placement, which is quite difficult on her.
I don't see it. At least Karma has generally easy-hit CC, near-nonexistent cooldowns on Q, high burst with R, and shield/sustain to boot. Her solo capability far outscales Janna or Soraka, in my opinion. Her base combo is only 520 (+120% AP), but with an actual damaging ultimate that adds on 300-525 (+60-90% AP) and with a cooldown that creeps quite quickly in teamfights, so she can toss a lot of damage quite quickly, making her a far better solo laner than those two, at the very least.
Hellioning3 votesJanna and Soraka used to be annoyingly powerful midlaners. I couldn't tell you the exact times on Janna, but Soraka was pre-rework, early season 3. Janna would just Q your wave, which would probably oneshot it at full charge, ignore any attempt on your part to engage by being Janna at you, and transition into a support with farm lategame.
Soraka was just difficult to push out of lane, especially when she built tanky. It was in the height of the assassin meta, so something that an assassin couldn't kill was immensely irritating.
I'm aware that currently Karma is a better solo laner than those two, but that's the point. I'm saying that Karma is much less annoying to fight as a solo laner than either of those two; I was merely bringing them up as an attempt to compare how weird it is that she's getting forced into the support role.