Sion Relaunch Thread!

Hellioning·Feb 3, 2014·73 votes·55,232 views

Now, I'm sure everyone is aware that Sion is an issue. He has two real builds; ap and ad. AP completely ignores two of his skills and instead focuses on a point and click that removes the intended counterplay to his exploding shield, that is, blow it up before it can respond. While this is fine in a teamfight environment, since he can only stun one champion and their teammates can explode the shield, it is incredibly hard to play against in a lane enviroment. This build also falls off in late game, due to the ease of which a full team of five can explode his shield, therefore completely neutering his damage. It also completely ignores his theme; he's a giant zombie with an axe that is a big Ahnuld fan. He should not be a mage.

Meanwhile, his AD build takes forever to build up to a reasonable level. While this build does not ignore his shield and stun, they are much weaker and only used for the utility and survivability they bring. After he gets his items, he gets much stronger, so he can right click people and kill them during the stun. This makes much more sense in regards to his theme, but is also incredibly boring.

Now, it's no secret he's getting reworked, because when people think 'clunky kits' Sion is either the first or second champ they think besides Urgot (incidentally, both are reanimated Noxian warriors. Coincidence?) The issue is 'what IS Sion?' Theme wise, it's obvious; he's a giant axe-swinging zombie that quotes Schwarzenegger, so he should have something akin to Darius' kit. When it comes to gameplay, however, people are far more attached to his AP mage pattern. Even if it's impossible to play against, that shield is so much fun when it explodes. Something has to change; but what?

Please post your comments and concerns in this thread; IronStylus has promised to post this thread on his twitter and hopefully get some discussion going, so he can properly express the average player's opinion to the relaunch team. Hopefully, we can make a Sion that everyone enjoys or, at the very least, everyone can tolerate.

407 Comments

KeyoriFeb 3, 2014177 votes

EDIT: DanielZKlein let me know that IronStylus would like to know what we envision Sion should look like so TO IRONSTYLUS:

Sion is the undead champion - for me I picture a decayed corpse with a lot of weapons and projectiles impaled in him - since he must have died before becoming undead. As discussed below Sion's core is about him being ridiculously difficult to kill due to the fact he is a re-animated corpse who feels no pain, and I feel this should be reflected in his model and art - maybe conveyed through having multiple weapons - (swords, axes, arrows) impaled/stuck in him.

I always felt Sion was both AD and AP - which ever you chose to play as will use 2 spells and ignore the other 2 spells. Both paths make you ridiculously OP and unplayable against when fed, however, it always felt odd and kinda lackluster to only utilize 2 spells. There are AD/AP Hybrids in the League who use all spells despite having multiple build paths and playstyles - like Tristana, Kayle and Teemo. All those champions can be played as either AD or AP, and whichever you choose you will still utilize all 4 spells. Sion does not.

Let's get into Sion's actual core character design and kit:

AP has an un-counterable point and click stun-shield combo for massive damage and AD has the hard-to-counter unkillable lifesteal.

In short, I feel you should make Sion a hybrid along the lines of Trist, Teemo or Kayle so those who want to play him AP can - and those who want to play him AD can. There are 2 communities who play sion - those who like AD and those who like AP - I don't think it's fair to remove one playstyle from him for the sake of a rework because both playstyles are used.

I always felt like Sion felt "unkillable" when fed, and I think he should remain like this. I have no idea for spell reworks or anything but I feel his core character is "the undying" - you have to really put work and focus into killing him. I always felt like Sion was death personified - he's slow as hell, but when he reaches you, you know you're gunna be in a for an unavoidable world of hurt. That said, please don't give him a gap closer. The whole idea of Sion in my head is that he's **slowly **coming to get you. We don't need more gap closers. A rebirth passive might be plausible in his kit (although we have too many already) - it makes sense - but pls no gapcloserino.

I know I might get flame for this but perhaps you can take some inspiration from DOTA2's Skeleton King - I always felt like Sion was based off him anyway and his character really does scream SK to me.

Going into what you said about him being just a zombie with an axe so he has to be similar to Darius - don't you dare. There's enough copy-pasted spells in League - that's why the meta is hella stale. Just because he has an axe does not make it ok to copy paste Darius' playstyle. Focus on his real core - he's reanimated - back from the dead to cause hell and he ain't dying without a fight. His weapon does not define his character, that's just a weapon to kill people with because he's a champion fighter - his choice of weapon makes no difference - he's just there to kill. Darius IS defined by his weapon - he's an executioner - he is his axe. Sion is the UNDEAD CHAMPION. His passive literally states FEEL NO PAIN. He's is coming to get you and you should be scared because he FEELS NO PAIN, NO REMORSE, THERE IS ONLY DEATH. And if you kill him? Sion I'LL BE BACK!

I enjoy Sion because he's a rarely seen anti-meta champ who can go both jungle, top, mid or support and, depending on how you choose to play, he has an array of playstyles. Gank machine, AP assassin mage, AD frontliner and stun-bot support.

When you rework Sion, I beg you remember his core. Don't copy paste ANYTHING. Sion is unique with an awesome core design and has the potential to be an even cooler champion with this rework - if you aren't going to keep him unique and remember his core then I would suggest you just leave him - give him a VU and move on.

-Keyori

ZimuusFeb 3, 20149 votes

Couldn't have said it better.

Ryno90Feb 3, 20143 votes

Sion's reworked stun should be something zombie themed as well that's what i think

DabundisFeb 3, 201416 votes

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pBoPs4bkMQc/Umw5pktcf6I/AAAAAAAAAxA/ceCDwWYdEGs/s1600/ReDead%2BZelda%2BWind%2BWaker.jpg

This is a ReDead. For those who don't play Zelda, it is a zombie-like creature that will do nothing until approached, at which point they will turn and screech at link, causing him to cringe and be unable to act for a few seconds.

I think this is a cool basis for how Sion's stun could work conceptually (it's already called cryptic gaze). Much like what Keyori was saying, ReDeads will move extremely slowly, but if/when they reach you, you're in for a world of hurt.

Just my two cents.

AltashhethFeb 3, 20141 votes

Another possible path that my be easier to get working would be not making it an AD or AP kit, but embrace the hybrid nature. His E which atm doesn't add a lot of gameplay value could be used to make this work. What if it gave Sion an AP->AD conversion on his autos? That would make his ultimate meaningful even when playing AP and expand his sustainable fighting pattern instead of just stun ->pop shield ->run. Just an example.

I think the major problem of the rework will be whether or not the stun and shield can remain functioning as they are at all. It's such a defining and iconic playstyle, but it's also a big offender to Riot's design philosophy. Yet it can be hilarious, some people like it and without it... Sion would feel like a new champion.

RokeusFeb 3, 20145 votes

You could also possibly rework his E to toggle between two effects, the current mode which grants AD (and costs health) and a mode which grants AP (and costs mana per spell cast).

As for the health stacking on last hit, you might work in an alternate stacking mechanic that makes more sense for an AP playstyle.

JYarbzFeb 3, 20147 votes

I dont think you need to give him a "rebirth" passive. If you played guildwars 2 (I played some and it's been a while - so forgive my slight ignorance on it though it is my example), the Necromancer class had a sort of second health bar on a huge ability that would also give them some special form. I would love to see this on a sion ult or passive where you really get that undead feeling. Like you killed him but he has some grey health bar over him that you have to still chew through, meanwhile he's just going crazy and swinging harder and maybe even getting more powerful. Maybe it would have a timer to run out - kind of like a yorick ult - or just be a passive that activates when he falls to 0 life and gives him some type of bonus to durability or damage. Or even cooler, it could change one or all of his abilities in some way perhaps akin to something like Shyvana's dragon form.

That actually sounds pretty sick to me... a sion passive that "reanimates" him as he falls to 0 life for whatever period of time and whatever stipulation there is to stop him (maybe a health bar, maybe a timer)... and his abilities all change in some way, maybe gaining aoe like Shyvana's ult, or gaining extra effects like Karma's mantras.

im a blisyFeb 3, 201416 votes

This has a lot of horrible points, the being hybrid, the not being like Darius. First of all, they said they want AP Sion dead, so if they keep any of his old kit they'd do something along the lines of what they did to Yi and bring it to AD Sion. Also, conceptually, if you think Sion should be slowly coming to you with no gap-closers, you are aware that's exactly the design intent behind Darius. He can get kited, but he builds up bleeds and chases you down. Garen also has a similar design, as well as Gangplank. Now these champs have previously been problems because their kits end up overtuned in terms of numbers, but I think the design philosophy is solid. The best and what feels best to play against type of gapcloser is a huge increase in MS with some baby CC like a slow or a short stun. It gives the enemy an opportunity to kite while you have to use your moves carefully.

Also, think about Sions core? What is it? All his moves are very generic except his E and, his ult, while what is defining(makes him a lifesteal tank)is also just a MASSIVE steroid. And this is the problem, while those things Sion does for you, AP Assassin, Stun Bot Support are things are fun and stuff, they are so boring to play against and deal with. Like "Pop shield and clear wave, time to run bot lane!" Is not a good champion design.

Anyway, MY core for Sion is his Ult and E, you can scrap every other move, and even then it's probably best to separate said moves or move them around to different areas. I think the best thing to do is start with Aatrox and WW who are both lifesteal tanks and break down why they work, and see if any concept can be applied to Sion, and I don't mean just copy-paste their moves, but the ideas behind them. Why does WW Work? Because he's got so much innate healing and a huge attack speed steroid? Why does Aatrox work? Because he's got a really good heal on third hit and HUGE attack speed. So I think that's the core you gotta stick with, he's gotta heal on hit somehow, and he has to attack really fast. He should also have some sort of kite prevention, or way to deal with it, like an MS steroid, Keeping Cryptic Gaze in some way shape or form, or give him a jump.

Lol this got out of hand, TL:DR Take kit inspiration for WW and Aatrox, who I feel are successful Lifesteal tanks(LOTS of attack speed and built in healing) and ditch the abomination that is AP Sion.

VolcaetisFeb 3, 20147 votes

See, but in my opinion, a giant lumbering zombie with a huge axe should not have high attack speed. What might be interesting to see, and thematically tight for such a champion, would be high lifesteal, high AD, but really low attack speed. In other words, he smacks you once and deals a huge chunk of damage and heals for a lot (think like a Nasus Q with a decent chunk of lifesteal). Also, something interesting I thought of for an ult would be a huge steroid (AD, lifesteal, AS, whatever - I don't know the specifics) that lasts for a brief time but then leaves him vulnerable afterwards, like a self-imposed stun. So you'll want to use it to go berserk in a teamfight and kill everything in your way, but if you don't manage to do so you'll be left wide open for a counterattack.

Sir ArmaMalumFeb 3, 20146 votes

How about the possibility of an ability converting attack speed into additional Attack damage, preventing gains to attack speed all together? Building attack speed and crit would result in a hulkingly slow blow but almost guaranteed to crit, along with some weird tank/damage interactions with things like wit's end or SoTD.

Edit: OMG zephyr would be hilarious with this, not to mention be a core item on someone at last!

RiotIronStylusFeb 3, 201434 votes

Great ideas here. There's not much I can add in terms of mechanics, but I can say that these ideas can slot in very well to the overall thematics. Something specific which you've mentioned is being this slow, un-killable, unstoppable undead force, who, yes, would have died previously. I think this is a core characteristic.

Another thing that you've said about his axe not defining him, I think you're correct there. Sion himself is the focus here. He's a brute, maybe one that was consumed by such uncaring murderous momentum in his time in the Noxian military. Almost a precursor to Darius, maybe a similar position as Darius not commands. A idea we had is that Darius might even be the modern day incarnation of what Sion's "style" used to be. Sion might have been a great ax wielder (though a more primitive style) in the past, but is now this lumbering monster where his ax is just representative of his brute strength. It's used in more of a clobbering, smashing way than a precise slicing that Darius does.

This also adds into potential story lines. We can draw parallels back into Sion's previous life, perhaps in the heyday of the Noxian-Demacian war. Whatever might have transpired there could have caused his death and eventual arcane reanimation. But, that's just it, he's a behemoth which has been brought back, reinvigorated with undeath. Not really a Frankenstein which has been put together from other people's parts, Sion is still quinticentially Sion, just an undead extension of his brutal formar sense.

We're playing around with the idea that maybe he's sort of like.. if the US were to resurrect a great war hero. What would that person be like in present day? What would they retain? We surmise that in undeath they're motivations would sort of taper off where they're core craft still exists, or their fighting spirit is still there. Maybe Sion is Noxus' George Washington or General Patton, resurrected. Who knows!

"he FEELS NO PAIN, NO REMORSE, THERE IS ONLY DEATH. And if you kill him? I'LL BE BACK!"

That's a great sentiment, like Prince Vigo from Ghostbusters minus the maniacal mentality :P

Thanks for the feedback!

Bl3uFeb 3, 201412 votes

I personally hope you throw out the Schwarzenegger voice. I don't think it really fits him as a character (its too comical...)

RiotIronStylusFeb 3, 201410 votes

That's probably the direction we're going to go. It's just really an odd phenomenon.

AcastiusFeb 3, 201419 votes

Keep it with the Barbarian skin? Maybe?

RiotIronStylusFeb 3, 201420 votes

Actually I think that'd be really fun :)

PhoenixSlayer13Feb 3, 20146 votes

I like this idea. If Sion does get a classic skin, people who don't like the new model can still enjoy all the Ahnold goodness with the Barbarian skin.

Speaking of which, Stylus, do you think Sion would be a good candidate for a classic skin, or should his original look just be scrapped altogether?

Let's face it, Sion looks like crap right now. He has tree trunk legs and is way too blocky and cartoony.

RiotFeralPonyFeb 4, 20149 votes

I can't commit the relaunch team to it but I would suspect there will be a classic skin. Keeping the VO or the feel of the classic VO if there is a classic skin would be very likely.

OdamasaFeb 4, 20148 votes

Without Schwarzenegger, it is just not Sion anymore

nemofourteenFeb 3, 201415 votes

"undead dickhead who fights you forever" makes me think of a reverse jax. sure, you could have sion's ultimate grant him massive lifesteal, but that causes conflict between "he should be a carry, build tryndamere items" and "he should be a tank, build warwick items." there's also nothing particularly lifesteal-y about zombies; they don't regenerate after being injured in any of the popular zombie stories/franchises. they just refuse to re-die until they've taken an ungodly amount of punishment.

what if sion's ultimate passively granted stacks of percentage-based damage reduction as he landed attacks? something like 3/4/5% reduced damage per stack, stacking up to 10 times and lasting for no more than a few seconds if he's not hitting anything. it'd reinforce his I AM FRONT LINE, ATTACK ATTACK BASH BASH KILL KILL mentality without requiring players to build armor pen to get any use out of the ability against someone who's built a chain vest.

to further build on the "unrelenting zombie" archetype, sion should never get a gap closer. he should make opponents who are trying to kite him trip over themselves, though, just like in EVERY HORROR MOVIE EVER. give him an activated ability that slows anyone who deals damage to him during the ability's duration, like a stronger/broader form of randuin's that isn't always on. this means that sion can chase people down unless they're doing nothing but sprinting away from him (reinforcing "oh god it's sion time to gtfo") even if he doesn't ever move faster than michael myers' steady walking pace.

and if you really want to troll around then give him a passive called "offscreen teleportation" that grants vastly increased (e.g. +300%) movement speed while he is not visible to the enemy team. (jk pls do not do this)

ModShockyFeb 3, 201414 votes

Oh man, in game Darius should have a emote when around Sion. Like a friendly ode to the Veteran that is Sion. Darius "NOXIAN BROTHER, THANKS FOR SERVING BUT IT IS TIME FOR YOU TO REST!"

RiotFeralPonyFeb 3, 201428 votes

Jumping in real quick as I'm working on the mechanics design on Sion. It's a bit early to start talking specific mechanics here since we're still very early in the process but I do want to confirm that we're aligned on the thematic goals. Sion is an undead juggernaut.

Sion does have an axe and he needs to hit people with it. As to your concern of does the axe define him? Not at all. As far as I'm concerned mechanically the axe only exists because it's the tool in his hands he died with and he uses it to break people. It's about force and impact, not cutting and precision. Mechanically his weapon could just as easily be a hammer, a tree trunk, or a lead pipe. It just needs to hurt people and act as an extension of his force and brutality.

As for your concerns of him being a reskinned Darius I have no desire to tie Darius and Sion together mechanically despite being thematically tied (Sion is basically an older, deader, Champion of Noxus). They both have axes but that isn't enough for us to make them similar. Just as Garen and Yi both have swords but are totally unrelated.

I am going to very upfront on one point though despite being very early in development, I have no intent or desire to retain the current AP Sion playstyle. It doesn't make sense thematically, visually, or have much mechanically worth salvaging. Run at a bro - click to stun then explode before they can react is really harmful to the game as a whole and is an incredibly frustrating and binary experience. It simply is not worth preserving. We are trying out versions of the character where we keep the exploding shield because it is a really solid tank mechanic and has some cool gameplay around it. But the current Q is most definitely getting removed.

REMagic42Feb 3, 20144 votes

I love it already :)

However, I urge you to not give him free defensive stats. These are usually the number 1 reason, why the bruiser problem exists in the first place - champions getting too many free stats. Olaf, Xin Zhao, Nidalee, Shyvana, you name it. They all have (had) in common, that they got free defensive stats in the early-midgame.

Imo, if a champion does not work without free defensive stats (or stats in general), then the mechanics of the champion are too weak and need to be improved in some way. I am not sure how you're going to tackle the fighter problem anyway (Morello announced something for this season, but I dunno his exact wording off the top of my head…), but please adapt Sion to the fighter standards you are going to introduce - I don't want to have my dear undying warrior die shortly after his rework.

As for my ideas:

Sion needs something to be able to stick to his target, not a gap closer, but something that says "and you are not running away, marksman". In a meta with Lucian, Vayne, Sivir and Ezreal, slows are usually not sufficient to lock them down which is really the only task a fighter has.
Secondly, Sion should not have free defensive stats, but a skillset that gives him survivability when in a large Teamfight. How lame is an undead warrior that can make actual use of the defensive shield mastery thing?
Finally, don't keep that stupid E. Lifesteal scales with armor / MR and you give him free Bonus Health? That does not make sense. At all. Oh and the AD boost is so OP early game, I can't believe that this has made it past development phase - well, in exchange he got gutted in every other area of his skillset, not really worth it if you ask me.

Best Wishes from Switzerland

RiotFeralPonyFeb 4, 201410 votes

If we stick with the health on kill passive I would not be adding additional free defensive stats.

Sir ArmaMalumFeb 3, 20147 votes

Very much a fan of this. What is your personal opinion on his current E then? Is there anyone/you on the blackboard wanting to keep his scaling health buff? Also, there have been a few debates between him having attack speed and mobility versus him being slow in both movement speed and attack speed, are you in favor of a specific side currently or is it simply too early to say?

RiotFeralPonyFeb 4, 201420 votes

I think health gain on kill is a reasonable enough passive and is thematic with the juggernaut feeling. It's what I'm currently running with as his true passive (instead of the RNG flat DR), but as always it is subject to change. I do think it is important though that if that passive is retained he would not get free mitigation stats (armor/mr) anywhere else on the kit to go with it.

Sir ArmaMalumFeb 4, 20145 votes

Also, I'm sure you are looking through other comments, but may I point out the back and forth Volcaenis and I had where we ended with a possible passive that converted Attack Speed to additional Attack Damage while removing all bonus attack speed? I personally feel it's a neat interaction that has merit, maybe not for Sion but food for thought :)

RiotFeralPonyFeb 4, 201417 votes

It's a little mathy but yeah it's something I'll definitely consider. He is a champion that I think would look silly at 2.5 attacks per second. I'd rather see him with something like 600AD with a more reasonable AS in a DPS build :P

Super ExplosionFeb 4, 20145 votes

Speaking of, 2.5 AS might look pretty good on Diana. (Wink wink, nudge nudge.)

Although, the chopchopchop of AS Sion is pretty amusing.

Perhaps not amusing enough to keep as a core kit element, but some elements of whimsy should perhaps be preserved on (maybe other) champions. (Amumu should probably always cry on people. That sort of humor is a very welcome endearing quality of League.)

As a note though-- if you ever want Sion to be able to build 600 AD, he's probably going to need titanic base defenses.

If he has high base attack and CC instead, it's probably not going to happen that often in favor of tank items.

BigPoofterFeb 4, 20146 votes

I feel like this is actually thematic gold for Sion... he's this hulking undead juggernaut as everyone keeps saying. As soon as he starts attacking faster than 1 auto per second you start to lose that feel. If there's a way to keep his attack animation at a constant I think it would really help his feel. Each attack should carry huge weight to it and thus be extremely strong, but Sion should have to work hard to get multiple hits on a single target.

RokeusFeb 3, 20143 votes

I understand that its too early to talk about specifics but do you have any rough ideas on what you might turn his Q into? Will you be wanting to keep some form of CC in his kit or would you rather see him with no CC and a much more offense oriented kit?

RiotFeralPonyFeb 4, 201412 votes

I think shifting him a bit more in the fighter/tank direction is very natural and makes a lot of sense to fit the overall unkilling/juggernaut theme. This would involve retaining CC and mostly likely increasing the amount of CC on his kit. The current kit actually has a ton of CC, we'll see how it plays out internally before I go into more details on it though.

xXTornXxFeb 4, 20142 votes

Just one small idea for his ultimate. What if sion's ult let him pick up an enemy champion and toss them for aoe cc/damage were ever they land. I feel like this really goes with the huge brut that wrecks a front line theme that you guys have been pushing for him. Just imagine cho or shyvana trying to to create space only to have sion blitz in and throw them at the adc for the engage so much fun and play/counter play available.

RiotFeralPonyFeb 4, 201411 votes

Thematically it's super awesome and I tried this in the very first prototype. I even had a version of it where champions thrown into walls would bounce off back into Sion (Pro Wresting Style) but I really didn't like how it played out when I actually implemented it and played with it.

It basically felt like a more frustrating/crazy strong Skarner Ultimate with clunkier targeting. I had to slash so much power out of the rest of the kit because it was basically a guaranteed death sentence to the enemy in any team fight that the rest of the character felt pretty unsatisfying.

The scenario of throwing someone back into their team (the cool play) almost never occurred, instead it devolved into just flipping them into Sion's team every single time which is a much less cool version of the skill.

Super ExplosionFeb 4, 20149 votes

See, Sion I'm not sure feels thematically like a disabler-- the whole "you'll never escape" thing seems to fit more with stuff like Nautilus.

Sion feels more like the "I'm gonna run at them, take everything they have to throw, and keep going".

Sort of like a forward facing Bristleback-- one possibility for his passive is that he takes much less damage from the front.

RiotIronStylusFeb 3, 201444 votes

Dandy, glad we're here. I'm going to hit the sack and check on this thread when I get to work.

LabcownFeb 3, 201420 votes

Let's make Sion a ~~mage~~

Contrary to popular, I have never liked Sion's AP kit.

It always felt like a relic of old design to me, like the kits of Gragas (Who originally was conceived as a tank!) and Tristana, who only had High AP ratios on their kits because it was inconceivable to think they'd ever build anything but AD and thus any AP they do build should be rewarded. While it's not a complete disaster, we do get unwarranted results, and I think Sion epitomized that decision; I think they started off with the idea that Sion was this unkillable reanimation and threw on these ridiculous ratios because it was the design philosophy at the time.

I've always seen Sion as the unkillable unthinking warrior who'd charge the front lines and survive through sheer stamina and battle-lust, much like a typical D&D Barbarian; Not many defenses, but when engaged in combat, you'd be hard pressed into stopping him. Preserving or re-creating this ideal is what I think Riot should strive to do.

You might say we already have these tropes in League already, namely in Tryndamere and Olaf, but I'd disagree with ya and say that they are both Berserkers more than Barbarians, with Tryndamere getting close, but only artificially and with an ultimate.

**But how would being an actual Barbarian actually translate to League? **

Riot isn't far off with another kit they already have in game: Warwick. He's the existential "Drain-Tank" of League and I think that's where Sion's kit should be heading towards; Skills that emphasis in-combat survival and not just passive defenses.

Well if Warwick exists, why make Sion a drain-tank too?

While Warwick does do the whole drain-tank thing well, I think conceptually him and Sion are off. Warwick's the hunter, and thus he has the mobility (E) and stopping power (R) to chase a target and then devour them.

Sion on the hand, has different goals. He doesn't care about a single target or single goal, his only desire is to wreak havoc, cause chaos, and paint a battlefield red.

To that end, Sion's kit SHOULD NOT contain any of the following:

Mobility Tools - Sion is a slow lumbering yet imposing undead, mobility will ruin that.
Suppression tools or Hard CC - This one will probably catch the most flak, but unless there's a good counter-point, Sion's goal isn't to control, it's to destroy.

Even if either of those ideas would be attractive on his kit as a gameplay option, I think thematically putting those on would seem very off; He is a mindless, lumbering undead after all.

That's cool, but what exactly do you want on Sion then??

Thanks random floating text, I'm glad you asked. Since I've been blathering on about what I see Sion as conceptually and thematically, it only makes sense I come up with something concrete I DO want on his kit, namely:

Lifesteal/Consistent Combat Regeneration - This is probably the biggest aspect I'd like to see on Sion's kit remain relatively the same. I'm not asking for him to keep Cannibalism as is, but I would like to see an ability on him that he could pop during a fight to allow him to be tanky on the merits of hitting someone.
Health/Temporary Tankiness - This point here is what will separate him the most from Warwick. While Warwick drains, he primarily focuses on having AR/MR to reduce damage taken as an additional tactic. I don't want to see Sion doing that, instead I'd like to see him have some tool that actively promotes his health pool over resistances. If that's through some HP scaling or that's with something like temporary health boost (Sion gains an extra 20% bonus HP while yada-yada-yada!) I'd love to see some unique measure taken to let Sion liver longer through fights without actually decreasing the damage he's taking.

That's all I have folks, thanks for reading, and I'd love to hear some feedback. While I really feel this way, this post was written quite spontaneously so I'm sure I'm missing some key perspectives here!

SolopathFeb 3, 20146 votes

I'd love for his damage and sustain to be changed to maximum life stolen per hit. Trundle get's his ultimate percent drain, but I have this image of Sion hacking pieces off of his enemy and adding them onto himself for a temporary boost. By making it steal max health, it does a couple of things.

First of all, it lets Sion ignore the devastating effects of ignite and other grevious wound effects. Secondly, even if Sion is full health, he can still increase his ehp by adding more max health. Finally, if this went through resistances it would give him a way to deal with other tanks, by taking their health and not letting them regen it back.

RiotFeralPonyFeb 4, 201419 votes

I will say I'm really happy with the level and depth of conversations occurring in this thread. It's very helpful as a developer. I'll keep following this thread (as well as others about Sion), let's keep working together to make this dude as awesome as possible :)

Like A MetaphorFeb 3, 201411 votes

Taking a look at Sion's lore, two things stand out to me: "human battering ram" and "reanimated." Sion was a man who was sent ahead of battle to cleave through the ranks and thought to be so valuable that he was brought back from the grave to serve again. Plus, he's, like, one step removed from the Governator. However, the release of Darius kind of makes "dude what kills you with axe from Noxus" a bit moot.

He needs to be the first one in a battle and the last one out. I'd suggest another look at Sion's weapon, and further suggest something like a cleaver. This serves the dual purpose of giving him a greater aesthetic uniqueness and retains something that can be called the Chopper unto which people get. One could lean further into the undead warrior aspect and make it out of bone or something, but I know I'd be scared of a giant man with a cleaver coming at me.

And he should be coming at you, which his kit seems to suggest. With a stun, a shield that can be destroyed through damage, a health-stacking mechanism, and lifesteal, Sion's built to run at you. How could that be worked back into his lore? The idea of bringing someone back from the dead is equal parts cool and profane. Noxus can reanimate people? How? Wouldn't they just bring everyone back and rule with an undead army? I think looking at how and why Sion was reanimated could provide some inspiration. His ultimate is Cannibalism: maybe he's powered through killing, and since Noxus is in the business of killing, he's forever undead because he's forever killing. And what if Sion doesn't want to be undead? Sure, he was the first into battle and one could presume he enjoys it, but maybe he just wanted to die.

Considering his gameplay, Sion always struck me as an all-in sort of champion who needs to commit to a fight before his shield detonates. The shield seems to have the most play and counterplay around it, so I'd focus design around that. Perhaps Sion can refresh the shield if he deals enough damage; maybe he can't manually detonate it until hitting someone, or its duration is reduced so his choice is to either waste it or go in. Cryptic Gaze mentions that it terrifies someone just through a glance. I could see (ha) some interaction like a LeBlanc chain where Sion marks a target and applies some CC if they don't break range or line of sight; I'd think the latter would be more interesting, but that might steep too much burden of knowledge on the victim. If it were based on line of sight, I'd also consider making it a severe slow so Sion can still engage on a target without completely dooming them. Or just go all-in on the text and make it an actual Terrify effect: the undead visage of the undead warrior is such that his enemies are compelled to flee!

Enrage seems like a tricky ability. As-is, it has little gameplay and doesn't really seem like Sion's mad at anyone by lane minions. Maybe Sion gets Enraged at targets after striking them so many times, after which he deals extra damage to them at the cost of health. Currently, the ability doesn't have enough of a cost to feel like Sion is giving up anything. Cannibalism suffers the same sort of problem: it's a steriod where Sion gives up nothing but receives a ton of power with little visual communication to the player. Maybe Cannibalism interacts with Enrage and, while active, provides lifesteal as Sion gets Enraged? Something that tells players that Sion is out to get you, that he's already dead, and that, most importantly, he'll be back.

RiotIronStylusFeb 3, 201412 votes

Love the thematic ideas here. Also yes, I feel we need to answer those questions of how and why he was reanimated. We were thinking of even designing a 'pre-death' Sion and then building the main concept from there.

SalvanusFeb 3, 20144 votes

I really enjoy the idea of passives that govern the way you purchase items, ala Rammus, Galio, Vladimir, and Yasuo. After reading some of the suggestions regarding having alot of HP, not necessarily having lifesteal, and an ultimate that gives him stacking percent damage mitigation from autoattacks, maybe he could have a passive that gives him armor and magic resist based on the amount of HP he has, but armor and magic resist items have a reduced effect on him - maybe he only received 70% of the armor and magic resist from any items he purchases. I didn't completely think it through, but I think it could be an interesting jumping point for a passive in order to flesh out his QWER.

BarylFeb 3, 20149 votes

Why not make the 1 "Sion" into 2?

Something could happen to Sion lore wise and he needs to be rebuilt and they take him to Viktor, were he rebuilds him but decides to modify him a bit, making the zombie Sion be ad as he looks like. But while he rebuilt him Viktor learned some things and he builds or gives someone the spells that Sion had making him the mage version of Sion that many love, this way we get 2 "new" champs while still having the essence of the Sion we have today.

Super ExplosionFeb 3, 20144 votes

I want to make a note Mister Stylus that this post I'm replying to (but perhaps can't easily quote) was downvoted. (Not by me.)

But did it contain something truly unworthy of Rioter attention and inspiration? Or was it something someone merely didn't personally like?

So while you might decide not to intertwine Sion and Viktor's lores, such a thing may still be a helpful point of data.

Perhaps it could inspire a designer to make an AP champion with a similar shielding mechanic to AP Sion if he doesn't retain it (though he perhaps should) that is related to Viktor.

So even if a comment is downvoted and unreplied to, there may yet be usefulness in examining it.

Perhaps even through criticisms the likes of which Morello gets his Chain Vest for.

RiotIronStylusFeb 3, 201411 votes

I'm looking at the comment and it's not in line with what the team is thinking anyway. Is it interesting feedback? Yes. Is it something that there's a consensus around? Apparently not. It's crossing Sion and Zaun, which isn't really in line with what we're thinking. That said, shown by the downvote, it's not seen as popular to whoever voted. And I'd say in this case, it's representative of a direction we're not looking at going towards. That's the system.

It's a welcome opinion, but this is actually pretty helpful. The consensus rises to the top. It doesn't mean we're going to dig into the thread and look for what's "unpopular".

HellioningFeb 3, 20147 votes

You not looking through threads to find what's unpopular is exactly why I'm not a fan of this system.

RiotIronStylusFeb 3, 201412 votes

That's exactly what I'm doing at this very moment. You have to have a little faith. That's what the sorting options are for. The collapsible nests at the very least can let me get down to the bottom of the posts, just like I did here, instead of reading one by one to find the nugget of feedback buried.

AlmostMadHatterFeb 3, 20147 votes

Edit: Typos

Why don't you give him the Yi treatment? AP Master Yi was borderline broken, but the gameplay was really really fun. AD Yi was really good too, but his spells didn't really scale into the late game, much like Sion. Yi was given the 2 styles combined. Why not try to figure something out to combine the 2? Like make the shield scale with AD, and the stun too. Maybe not enough to be ridiculous, but enough to do something. Or instead of his ult lifestealing, it builds a shield that will explode at the end of the duration, or when he triggers it.

His Waltz Kit could be:

Q: current stun, minor scales with AD, like .5 bonus AD. W: Reminiscent of his current ult, gives him bonus attack speed and movement speed or lifesteal at the cost of mana. E. Same. R: Gains Some steroid, and all damage dealt is formed into a shield, he can trigger it to explode in an AoE at any time dealing damage equal to the shield.

I think he would be a pretty fair. He would have mana problems trying to sustain in the lane, but could also exchange pretty well. His ult has counterplay similar to Zed, when he is dealing damage and trying to ult, he can be attacked or exhausted to deal prevent him from dealing damage.

Just some ideas. It keeps him on the "Undead monster" while still being playable.He can keep the burst "mage" of AP, while keeping the Undead lifestealing monster of AD.

RiotFeralPonyFeb 3, 20148 votes

I think you're correct we can do something similar to Yi with Sion. I have no desire to keep the current Q at all, but the shield is a very cool ability I would like to retain if possible and have it make sense in the updated kit.

FancyCrebFeb 3, 20146 votes

Hi! I'm not a dedicated Sion player by any means, but I've played him a bit as his AD/Hypertank half. I realize that the current Summoner's Rift recommended kit is AP, but given his appearance and personality, playing him as a big meaty lug seemed more natural, knowing that AP and AD were both viable builds. Personally, I'd like the AP build to be axed in order to give the AD build more breathing room, but I might be biased.

As others have said, the core part of Sion is that he's unkillable. His shield is good at brunting damage, but I feel that Enrage's permanent health gain is integral to Sion's kit. It really captures the feel of a powerful warrior slaughtering legions of his enemies, and resonates in some ways with the idea of eating your enemy to gain its strength. The biggest drawback of the permanent lifegain is that it takes a lot of time and a lot of farming to become relevant.

Feel No Pain admittedly feels like a 'lame' passive, because while I'm sure it does a lot for me numerically, I have no feedback about whether or not it's actually helping me. A display like 'Damage Prevent: X' would go a long way to make it clear the passive actually matters, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it couldn't use a change. Outside of the context of other champions, I would say that a lifesteal bonus would be a decent effect, but Nasus already has the market cornered on that.

Cryptic Gaze is effective, certainly, but I don't understand why Sion has this ability, from a flavor standpoint. I'm also not sure what it represents. Sion stares at someone so hard they can't do anything? If anything, I imagine it would be more of an unnerving glare than a cryptic gaze. This is, I feel, the weakest part of his kit. I would say that of all of Sion's abilities, this one needs to be replaced or at least heavily reworked.

Cannibalism is what really makes Sion devastating in team fights, but mechanically it's just another auto-attack enhancer, and Enrage already is that. Cannibalism is one of those ultimates that feels like it could just be a regular ability if the numbers were smaller. Although I think that might not be such a bad thing. I could see Sion's kit being jumbled around in any number of ways without being too fundamentally changed.

So, onto the suggestions. I'm not confident any of these are the 'best', so, I'm just gonna throw them at the wall and see what sticks.

First proposition: Kill Feel No Pain and replace it with the following:

Endless Slaughter (Passive): Sion grows in strength as he slays his enemies. Sion gains 1/2/3 stack(s) of Slaughter whenever he kills an enemy unit with his attacks or abilities. This effect is doubled against champions and large units.

This is clearly more or less transposed from Enrage. As Ryze's maximum mana increases the effectiveness of his abilities, under this change, Sion's level of farm would assist with his. As different abilities would affect Sion in different ways, he could focus on different builds by maxing out a particular ability first. I would move the health gain onto Death's Caress as as passive effect, solidifying that as his survivabil-ability. Enrage would provide the same style of bonus attack, but would also scale with stacks of Slaughter. (+0.1/0.15/0.2/0.25/0.3 bonus AD per stack of Slaughter, as a ballpark number.

I don't see Cannibalism being affected much by this, but as an alternative suggestion, moving the health gain onto Cannibalism as a passive (And having Death's Caress's damage and/or shield capacity scale with Slaughter stacks instead.) would make high health an integral part of Sion regardless of which ability gets focused on increasing. I could also see Cannibalism trading its attack speed boost for an instant heal, or significantly increasing health regen. (Possibly scaling with either max health or Slaughter stacks.)

I don't mention Cryptic Gaze here because I don't think it has any place in a Sion rework, but I'll address that next in a second post attached to this one.

BurqaGirl69Feb 4, 20146 votes

So my issue here is that it's been constantly said how Sion should be a great ol' undead Noxian hero. I have a problem with that. I don't feel like the direction for Noxian lore is at all solidified. There have been efforts to make Demacia seem a lot less 2D goody goody justice land, but Noxus still seems like a chaotic mess. It's still a civilization, so while its people may not uphold high moral standards, it still must have laws and standards that it holds. The Noxian society needs things that are seen as okay, but also some taboos. I'm not seeing that right now. What is it that is wrong to do in Noxus, what is going too far and what is actually evil? They shouldn't openly be accepting that they are evil at all, they should be more or less oblivious to it and think what they are doing is right. To be a society that acknowledges and gladly upholds their violent and awful values would mean its a state of psychopaths. Basically, it makes no sense. So I go back to my question earlier, what the hell is taboo for Noxus?

What I imagined would actually make sense, and could be easily communicated to players through lore, is that necromancy is taboo for the general Noxian public. Now hold up, that doesn't mean Sion should not be Noxian. The way I see it is, the shadow isles is a place of chaos filled with the undead. Noxus wants control over the lands of others, not rampant chaos. The general public should see the undead as something that the living can't control and as creatures that lack control themselves, and hence a practice of raising them should no be seen in a good light. That being said, there could be people within Noxus who are far more corrupt. The story I had imagined with Sion is that he once was a livng Noxian hero (as he was in his current lore) but died in battle. A secret group of necromancers, possibly funded by the corrupt rule of Swain (with his accomplice Darius)secretly sorted to hiring a necromancer or two to put him back together as an undead fighting machine. He should be viewed as a secret weapon, perhaps a personal weapon and champion for Swain. I think it could create somewhat of a divide between some of the characters in Noxus, between those who are insatiably power hungry and will resort to anything for it and those who still value some diplomacy and justice but are still proud to be Noxian and practice Noxian ways of fighting. I basically think Sion should cause some suspicion in the eyes of Katarina, whom, while trained as an assassin and patriotic of Noxus, may still feel that Noxus should not descent into insanity. It can cause some animosity between her (along with her partner/apprentice Talon) and Swain along with Darius. Perhaps some other Noxians can get into the mix, but that would be a stretch.

That would probably deliver a much more Gregor Clegane vibe to it as well, which you seemed excited about. Tl;dr: Sion shouldn't be an openly known undead Noxian warrior but a secret Noxian weapon known to the most corrupt Noxian rule.