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Sion Relaunch Thread!

Hellioning·2/3/2014, 9:54:46 AM·73 votes·55,232 views

Now, I'm sure everyone is aware that Sion is an issue. He has two real builds; ap and ad. AP completely ignores two of his skills and instead focuses on a point and click that removes the intended counterplay to his exploding shield, that is, blow it up before it can respond. While this is fine in a teamfight environment, since he can only stun one champion and their teammates can explode the shield, it is incredibly hard to play against in a lane enviroment. This build also falls off in late game, due to the ease of which a full team of five can explode his shield, therefore completely neutering his damage. It also completely ignores his theme; he's a giant zombie with an axe that is a big Ahnuld fan. He should not be a mage.

Meanwhile, his AD build takes forever to build up to a reasonable level. While this build does not ignore his shield and stun, they are much weaker and only used for the utility and survivability they bring. After he gets his items, he gets much stronger, so he can right click people and kill them during the stun. This makes much more sense in regards to his theme, but is also incredibly boring.

Now, it's no secret he's getting reworked, because when people think 'clunky kits' Sion is either the first or second champ they think besides Urgot (incidentally, both are reanimated Noxian warriors. Coincidence?) The issue is 'what IS Sion?' Theme wise, it's obvious; he's a giant axe-swinging zombie that quotes Schwarzenegger, so he should have something akin to Darius' kit. When it comes to gameplay, however, people are far more attached to his AP mage pattern. Even if it's impossible to play against, that shield is so much fun when it explodes. Something has to change; but what?

Please post your comments and concerns in this thread; IronStylus has promised to post this thread on his twitter and hopefully get some discussion going, so he can properly express the average player's opinion to the relaunch team. Hopefully, we can make a Sion that everyone enjoys or, at the very least, everyone can tolerate.

407 Comments

Keyori2/3/2014, 10:15:16 AM177 votes

EDIT: DanielZKlein let me know that IronStylus would like to know what we envision Sion should look like so TO IRONSTYLUS:

Sion is the undead champion - for me I picture a decayed corpse with a lot of weapons and projectiles impaled in him - since he must have died before becoming undead. As discussed below Sion's core is about him being ridiculously difficult to kill due to the fact he is a re-animated corpse who feels no pain, and I feel this should be reflected in his model and art - maybe conveyed through having multiple weapons - (swords, axes, arrows) impaled/stuck in him.

I always felt Sion was both AD and AP - which ever you chose to play as will use 2 spells and ignore the other 2 spells. Both paths make you ridiculously OP and unplayable against when fed, however, it always felt odd and kinda lackluster to only utilize 2 spells. There are AD/AP Hybrids in the League who use all spells despite having multiple build paths and playstyles - like Tristana, Kayle and Teemo. All those champions can be played as either AD or AP, and whichever you choose you will still utilize all 4 spells. Sion does not.

Let's get into Sion's actual core character design and kit:

AP has an un-counterable point and click stun-shield combo for massive damage and AD has the hard-to-counter unkillable lifesteal.

In short, I feel you should make Sion a hybrid along the lines of Trist, Teemo or Kayle so those who want to play him AP can - and those who want to play him AD can. There are 2 communities who play sion - those who like AD and those who like AP - I don't think it's fair to remove one playstyle from him for the sake of a rework because both playstyles are used.

I always felt like Sion felt "unkillable" when fed, and I think he should remain like this. I have no idea for spell reworks or anything but I feel his core character is "the undying" - you have to really put work and focus into killing him. I always felt like Sion was death personified - he's slow as hell, but when he reaches you, you know you're gunna be in a for an unavoidable world of hurt. That said, please don't give him a gap closer. The whole idea of Sion in my head is that he's **slowly **coming to get you. We don't need more gap closers. A rebirth passive might be plausible in his kit (although we have too many already) - it makes sense - but pls no gapcloserino.

I know I might get flame for this but perhaps you can take some inspiration from DOTA2's Skeleton King - I always felt like Sion was based off him anyway and his character really does scream SK to me.

Going into what you said about him being just a zombie with an axe so he has to be similar to Darius - don't you dare. There's enough copy-pasted spells in League - that's why the meta is hella stale. Just because he has an axe does not make it ok to copy paste Darius' playstyle. Focus on his real core - he's reanimated - back from the dead to cause hell and he ain't dying without a fight. His weapon does not define his character, that's just a weapon to kill people with because he's a champion fighter - his choice of weapon makes no difference - he's just there to kill. Darius IS defined by his weapon - he's an executioner - he is his axe. Sion is the UNDEAD CHAMPION. His passive literally states FEEL NO PAIN. He's is coming to get you and you should be scared because he FEELS NO PAIN, NO REMORSE, THERE IS ONLY DEATH. And if you kill him? Sion I'LL BE BACK!

I enjoy Sion because he's a rarely seen anti-meta champ who can go both jungle, top, mid or support and, depending on how you choose to play, he has an array of playstyles. Gank machine, AP assassin mage, AD frontliner and stun-bot support.

When you rework Sion, I beg you remember his core. Don't copy paste ANYTHING. Sion is unique with an awesome core design and has the potential to be an even cooler champion with this rework - if you aren't going to keep him unique and remember his core then I would suggest you just leave him - give him a VU and move on.

-Keyori

RiotIronStylus2/3/2014, 10:11:30 AM44 votes

Dandy, glad we're here. I'm going to hit the sack and check on this thread when I get to work.

Labcown2/3/2014, 4:46:03 PM20 votes

Let's make Sion a mage

Contrary to popular, I have never liked Sion's AP kit.

It always felt like a relic of old design to me, like the kits of Gragas (Who originally was conceived as a tank!) and Tristana, who only had High AP ratios on their kits because it was inconceivable to think they'd ever build anything but AD and thus any AP they do build should be rewarded. While it's not a complete disaster, we do get unwarranted results, and I think Sion epitomized that decision; I think they started off with the idea that Sion was this unkillable reanimation and threw on these ridiculous ratios because it was the design philosophy at the time.

I've always seen Sion as the unkillable unthinking warrior who'd charge the front lines and survive through sheer stamina and battle-lust, much like a typical D&D Barbarian; Not many defenses, but when engaged in combat, you'd be hard pressed into stopping him. Preserving or re-creating this ideal is what I think Riot should strive to do.

You might say we already have these tropes in League already, namely in Tryndamere and Olaf, but I'd disagree with ya and say that they are both Berserkers more than Barbarians, with Tryndamere getting close, but only artificially and with an ultimate.

**But how would being an actual Barbarian actually translate to League? **

Riot isn't far off with another kit they already have in game: Warwick. He's the existential "Drain-Tank" of League and I think that's where Sion's kit should be heading towards; Skills that emphasis in-combat survival and not just passive defenses.

Well if Warwick exists, why make Sion a drain-tank too?

While Warwick does do the whole drain-tank thing well, I think conceptually him and Sion are off. Warwick's the hunter, and thus he has the mobility (E) and stopping power (R) to chase a target and then devour them.

Sion on the hand, has different goals. He doesn't care about a single target or single goal, his only desire is to wreak havoc, cause chaos, and paint a battlefield red.

To that end, Sion's kit SHOULD NOT contain any of the following:

  • Mobility Tools - Sion is a slow lumbering yet imposing undead, mobility will ruin that.

  • Suppression tools or Hard CC - This one will probably catch the most flak, but unless there's a good counter-point, Sion's goal isn't to control, it's to destroy.

Even if either of those ideas would be attractive on his kit as a gameplay option, I think thematically putting those on would seem very off; He is a mindless, lumbering undead after all.

That's cool, but what exactly do you want on Sion then??

Thanks random floating text, I'm glad you asked. Since I've been blathering on about what I see Sion as conceptually and thematically, it only makes sense I come up with something concrete I DO want on his kit, namely:

  • Lifesteal/Consistent Combat Regeneration - This is probably the biggest aspect I'd like to see on Sion's kit remain relatively the same. I'm not asking for him to keep Cannibalism as is, but I would like to see an ability on him that he could pop during a fight to allow him to be tanky on the merits of hitting someone.

  • Health/Temporary Tankiness - This point here is what will separate him the most from Warwick. While Warwick drains, he primarily focuses on having AR/MR to reduce damage taken as an additional tactic. I don't want to see Sion doing that, instead I'd like to see him have some tool that actively promotes his health pool over resistances. If that's through some HP scaling or that's with something like temporary health boost (Sion gains an extra 20% bonus HP while yada-yada-yada!) I'd love to see some unique measure taken to let Sion liver longer through fights without actually decreasing the damage he's taking.

That's all I have folks, thanks for reading, and I'd love to hear some feedback. While I really feel this way, this post was written quite spontaneously so I'm sure I'm missing some key perspectives here!

RiotFeralPony2/4/2014, 1:51:07 AM19 votes

I will say I'm really happy with the level and depth of conversations occurring in this thread. It's very helpful as a developer. I'll keep following this thread (as well as others about Sion), let's keep working together to make this dude as awesome as possible :)

Like A Metaphor2/3/2014, 3:02:56 PM11 votes

Taking a look at Sion's lore, two things stand out to me: "human battering ram" and "reanimated." Sion was a man who was sent ahead of battle to cleave through the ranks and thought to be so valuable that he was brought back from the grave to serve again. Plus, he's, like, one step removed from the Governator. However, the release of Darius kind of makes "dude what kills you with axe from Noxus" a bit moot.

He needs to be the first one in a battle and the last one out. I'd suggest another look at Sion's weapon, and further suggest something like a cleaver. This serves the dual purpose of giving him a greater aesthetic uniqueness and retains something that can be called the Chopper unto which people get. One could lean further into the undead warrior aspect and make it out of bone or something, but I know I'd be scared of a giant man with a cleaver coming at me.

And he should be coming at you, which his kit seems to suggest. With a stun, a shield that can be destroyed through damage, a health-stacking mechanism, and lifesteal, Sion's built to run at you. How could that be worked back into his lore? The idea of bringing someone back from the dead is equal parts cool and profane. Noxus can reanimate people? How? Wouldn't they just bring everyone back and rule with an undead army? I think looking at how and why Sion was reanimated could provide some inspiration. His ultimate is Cannibalism: maybe he's powered through killing, and since Noxus is in the business of killing, he's forever undead because he's forever killing. And what if Sion doesn't want to be undead? Sure, he was the first into battle and one could presume he enjoys it, but maybe he just wanted to die.

Considering his gameplay, Sion always struck me as an all-in sort of champion who needs to commit to a fight before his shield detonates. The shield seems to have the most play and counterplay around it, so I'd focus design around that. Perhaps Sion can refresh the shield if he deals enough damage; maybe he can't manually detonate it until hitting someone, or its duration is reduced so his choice is to either waste it or go in. Cryptic Gaze mentions that it terrifies someone just through a glance. I could see (ha) some interaction like a LeBlanc chain where Sion marks a target and applies some CC if they don't break range or line of sight; I'd think the latter would be more interesting, but that might steep too much burden of knowledge on the victim. If it were based on line of sight, I'd also consider making it a severe slow so Sion can still engage on a target without completely dooming them. Or just go all-in on the text and make it an actual Terrify effect: the undead visage of the undead warrior is such that his enemies are compelled to flee!

Enrage seems like a tricky ability. As-is, it has little gameplay and doesn't really seem like Sion's mad at anyone by lane minions. Maybe Sion gets Enraged at targets after striking them so many times, after which he deals extra damage to them at the cost of health. Currently, the ability doesn't have enough of a cost to feel like Sion is giving up anything. Cannibalism suffers the same sort of problem: it's a steriod where Sion gives up nothing but receives a ton of power with little visual communication to the player. Maybe Cannibalism interacts with Enrage and, while active, provides lifesteal as Sion gets Enraged? Something that tells players that Sion is out to get you, that he's already dead, and that, most importantly, he'll be back.

Baryl2/3/2014, 10:46:02 AM9 votes

Why not make the 1 "Sion" into 2?

Something could happen to Sion lore wise and he needs to be rebuilt and they take him to Viktor, were he rebuilds him but decides to modify him a bit, making the zombie Sion be ad as he looks like. But while he rebuilt him Viktor learned some things and he builds or gives someone the spells that Sion had making him the mage version of Sion that many love, this way we get 2 "new" champs while still having the essence of the Sion we have today.

AlmostMadHatter2/3/2014, 6:11:18 PM7 votes

Edit: Typos

Why don't you give him the Yi treatment? AP Master Yi was borderline broken, but the gameplay was really really fun. AD Yi was really good too, but his spells didn't really scale into the late game, much like Sion. Yi was given the 2 styles combined. Why not try to figure something out to combine the 2? Like make the shield scale with AD, and the stun too. Maybe not enough to be ridiculous, but enough to do something. Or instead of his ult lifestealing, it builds a shield that will explode at the end of the duration, or when he triggers it.

His Waltz Kit could be:

Q: current stun, minor scales with AD, like .5 bonus AD. W: Reminiscent of his current ult, gives him bonus attack speed and movement speed or lifesteal at the cost of mana. E. Same. R: Gains Some steroid, and all damage dealt is formed into a shield, he can trigger it to explode in an AoE at any time dealing damage equal to the shield.

I think he would be a pretty fair. He would have mana problems trying to sustain in the lane, but could also exchange pretty well. His ult has counterplay similar to Zed, when he is dealing damage and trying to ult, he can be attacked or exhausted to deal prevent him from dealing damage.

Just some ideas. It keeps him on the "Undead monster" while still being playable.He can keep the burst "mage" of AP, while keeping the Undead lifestealing monster of AD.

FancyCreb2/3/2014, 11:04:38 PM6 votes

Hi! I'm not a dedicated Sion player by any means, but I've played him a bit as his AD/Hypertank half. I realize that the current Summoner's Rift recommended kit is AP, but given his appearance and personality, playing him as a big meaty lug seemed more natural, knowing that AP and AD were both viable builds. Personally, I'd like the AP build to be axed in order to give the AD build more breathing room, but I might be biased.

As others have said, the core part of Sion is that he's unkillable. His shield is good at brunting damage, but I feel that Enrage's permanent health gain is integral to Sion's kit. It really captures the feel of a powerful warrior slaughtering legions of his enemies, and resonates in some ways with the idea of eating your enemy to gain its strength. The biggest drawback of the permanent lifegain is that it takes a lot of time and a lot of farming to become relevant.

Feel No Pain admittedly feels like a 'lame' passive, because while I'm sure it does a lot for me numerically, I have no feedback about whether or not it's actually helping me. A display like 'Damage Prevent: X' would go a long way to make it clear the passive actually matters, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it couldn't use a change. Outside of the context of other champions, I would say that a lifesteal bonus would be a decent effect, but Nasus already has the market cornered on that.

Cryptic Gaze is effective, certainly, but I don't understand why Sion has this ability, from a flavor standpoint. I'm also not sure what it represents. Sion stares at someone so hard they can't do anything? If anything, I imagine it would be more of an unnerving glare than a cryptic gaze. This is, I feel, the weakest part of his kit. I would say that of all of Sion's abilities, this one needs to be replaced or at least heavily reworked.

Cannibalism is what really makes Sion devastating in team fights, but mechanically it's just another auto-attack enhancer, and Enrage already is that. Cannibalism is one of those ultimates that feels like it could just be a regular ability if the numbers were smaller. Although I think that might not be such a bad thing. I could see Sion's kit being jumbled around in any number of ways without being too fundamentally changed.

So, onto the suggestions. I'm not confident any of these are the 'best', so, I'm just gonna throw them at the wall and see what sticks.

First proposition: Kill Feel No Pain and replace it with the following:

Endless Slaughter (Passive): Sion grows in strength as he slays his enemies. Sion gains 1/2/3 stack(s) of Slaughter whenever he kills an enemy unit with his attacks or abilities. This effect is doubled against champions and large units.

This is clearly more or less transposed from Enrage. As Ryze's maximum mana increases the effectiveness of his abilities, under this change, Sion's level of farm would assist with his. As different abilities would affect Sion in different ways, he could focus on different builds by maxing out a particular ability first. I would move the health gain onto Death's Caress as as passive effect, solidifying that as his survivabil-ability. Enrage would provide the same style of bonus attack, but would also scale with stacks of Slaughter. (+0.1/0.15/0.2/0.25/0.3 bonus AD per stack of Slaughter, as a ballpark number.

I don't see Cannibalism being affected much by this, but as an alternative suggestion, moving the health gain onto Cannibalism as a passive (And having Death's Caress's damage and/or shield capacity scale with Slaughter stacks instead.) would make high health an integral part of Sion regardless of which ability gets focused on increasing. I could also see Cannibalism trading its attack speed boost for an instant heal, or significantly increasing health regen. (Possibly scaling with either max health or Slaughter stacks.)

I don't mention Cryptic Gaze here because I don't think it has any place in a Sion rework, but I'll address that next in a second post attached to this one.

BurqaGirl692/4/2014, 1:24:03 PM6 votes

So my issue here is that it's been constantly said how Sion should be a great ol' undead Noxian hero. I have a problem with that. I don't feel like the direction for Noxian lore is at all solidified. There have been efforts to make Demacia seem a lot less 2D goody goody justice land, but Noxus still seems like a chaotic mess. It's still a civilization, so while its people may not uphold high moral standards, it still must have laws and standards that it holds. The Noxian society needs things that are seen as okay, but also some taboos. I'm not seeing that right now. What is it that is wrong to do in Noxus, what is going too far and what is actually evil? They shouldn't openly be accepting that they are evil at all, they should be more or less oblivious to it and think what they are doing is right. To be a society that acknowledges and gladly upholds their violent and awful values would mean its a state of psychopaths. Basically, it makes no sense. So I go back to my question earlier, what the hell is taboo for Noxus?

What I imagined would actually make sense, and could be easily communicated to players through lore, is that necromancy is taboo for the general Noxian public. Now hold up, that doesn't mean Sion should not be Noxian. The way I see it is, the shadow isles is a place of chaos filled with the undead. Noxus wants control over the lands of others, not rampant chaos. The general public should see the undead as something that the living can't control and as creatures that lack control themselves, and hence a practice of raising them should no be seen in a good light. That being said, there could be people within Noxus who are far more corrupt. The story I had imagined with Sion is that he once was a livng Noxian hero (as he was in his current lore) but died in battle. A secret group of necromancers, possibly funded by the corrupt rule of Swain (with his accomplice Darius)secretly sorted to hiring a necromancer or two to put him back together as an undead fighting machine. He should be viewed as a secret weapon, perhaps a personal weapon and champion for Swain. I think it could create somewhat of a divide between some of the characters in Noxus, between those who are insatiably power hungry and will resort to anything for it and those who still value some diplomacy and justice but are still proud to be Noxian and practice Noxian ways of fighting. I basically think Sion should cause some suspicion in the eyes of Katarina, whom, while trained as an assassin and patriotic of Noxus, may still feel that Noxus should not descent into insanity. It can cause some animosity between her (along with her partner/apprentice Talon) and Swain along with Darius. Perhaps some other Noxians can get into the mix, but that would be a stretch.

That would probably deliver a much more Gregor Clegane vibe to it as well, which you seemed excited about. Tl;dr: Sion shouldn't be an openly known undead Noxian warrior but a secret Noxian weapon known to the most corrupt Noxian rule.