http://imgur.com/zPaKw78 What does Riot think of Sona? she has improved slightly from last season due to Windseeker's Blessing and Frost Queen's Claim.
But I "feel" as if she needs a little bit more to be where she needs to be; On the level of Thresh, Tahm Kench, Leona, Annie, Brand, Soraka, etc.
Plans in the future for Busty Muse?
RiotMeddler20 votesOverall basically still the same as per my post in this thread:
http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/EkxbfyvO-so-lemme-get-this-straight
Preseason's also increased her effectiveness a noticeable amount, so if we felt compelled to make balance adjustments to her I'd imagine they'd be nerfs not buffs. There are certainly some supports that are more dominant overall, we've either just nerfed, or are in the process of nerfing, those that are over the line though (some of whom will probably need further work too - looking at you Brand).
A Wild AP Sona11 votesOverall basically still the same as per my post in this thread:
http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/EkxbfyvO-so-lemme-get-this-straight
Preseason's also increased her effectiveness a noticeable amount, so if we felt compelled to make balance adjustments to her I'd imagine they'd be nerfs not buffs. There are certainly some supports that are more dominant overall, we've either just nerfed, or are in the process of nerfing, those that are over the line though (some of whom will probably need further work too - looking at you Brand).
lol what a fucking joke 40 consecutive sona nerfs wasnt enough for you? uninstall this game and quit riot we dont want you meanwhile tahm walks around 1v1ing everyone with TWO life bars (6-7k health champ nice) and giving his team 2 tf ultimates and bursting people for 35% of their max health just because he aa'd them 3 times
[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i4mbjszh,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-12-13T01:21:08.130+0000)
I am Diamond. I use Windspeaker's Blessing, as does every other Sona at my bracket (Justifiably so).
C9 lost pretty hard at worlds, I would not trust them in terms of tier lists.... though recently Windspeaker's Blessing got gutted so maybe you have a point. I'll try Thunderlord's decree again.
cheerleaders blessing is shitstain on rug tier for sona compared to thunderlords run thunderlords like someone that actually has sona mechanics instead of cheerleaders that hopes to get carried by their teammates while they are irrelevant to a real support pick
sona is supposed to run around the map and assassinate with 500-700 move speed and 1.2k-2k burst not hide in a bush hoping to be carried
~ source #1 sona world 4k games of sona experience http://www.twitch.tv/awildapsona
Dominick Destine3 votes[{quoted}](name=A Wild AP Sona,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i4mbjszh,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-12-13T01:44:04.346+0000)
cheerleaders blessing is shitstain on rug tier for sona compared to thunderlords run thunderlords like someone that actually has sona mechanics
I actually checked out your builds from Lolskill since you are ranked very high and I want to be as successful with Sona as I am with Evelynn, but even with your builds I had a lot of trouble. Nevertheless the recent gutting of Windspeaker's Blessing compels me to try Thunderlord's Decree again, I.e. I will do as you say.
And oh god, I hope Meddler was joking about gutting Sona... I mean... ugh... but at least now I know, I'll have to jump ship to a viable support if that happens.
By the way; How the fiddle sticks do you manage your mana? you only have Frost Queen's Claim as a mana regen item ... you don't even have the mana regen mastery.... and why boots of mobility instead of boots of swiftness? wouldn't swiftness be better for thunderlord's? you have two 10% CDR items plus 20% in runes... so 40% but, 40% CDR kills Sona's mana. Solution...?
Sailor Mint2 votesNevertheless the recent gutting of Windspeaker's Blessing compels me to try Thunderlord's Decree again, I.e. I will do as you say.
It's a buff on everyone except resist stacking tanks.
To gain more from +15% resists you need to have more than 146.67 Armor / 73.3MR at level 18.
Armor-wise, we're talking about a 45-90% increase compared to 5.23 on non-armor stackers.
Dominick Destine1 votesif we felt compelled to make balance adjustments to her I'd imagine they'd be nerfs not buffs.
Oh... I see.
Thank you for providing this valuable insight sir.
Puynsi13 votesWhy you hate Sona so much? Did she made someone go down a division or something?
Penguin Eclipse3 votesWhy you hate Sona so much? Did she made someone go down a division or something?
It's pretty obvious. Her kit is the very definition of toxic. Press Q to do damage. Press W to heal. Press E to move faster.
Riot hates auto targeted abilities. They hate point-click heals with no interaction or counter-play. Both her Q and W need to go before she gets any love.
Aeolian Melodies8 votes[{quoted}](name=Penguin Eclipse,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i4mbjszh,comment-id=000300020000,timestamp=2015-12-13T04:58:21.654+0000)
It's pretty obvious. Her kit is the very definition of toxic. Press Q to do damage. Press W to heal. Press E to move faster.
Riot hates auto targeted abilities. They hate point-click heals with no interaction or counter-play. Both her Q and W need to go before she gets any love.
Penguin Eclipse4 votes[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i4mbjszh,comment-id=0003000200000000,timestamp=2015-12-13T05:05:48.456+0000)
Her abilities are not auto-targeted nor does she have a heal.
Aeolian Melodies10 votes[{quoted}](name=Penguin Eclipse,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i4mbjszh,comment-id=00030002000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-13T05:08:10.534+0000)
Her abilities are not auto-targeted nor does she have a heal.
Her kit has inherently far less counterplay than Sona's and her stun is near impossible to avoid on reaction even with stellar ping.
Penguin Eclipse4 votes[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i4mbjszh,comment-id=000300020000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-13T06:08:09.486+0000)
Her kit has inherently far less counterplay than Sona's and her stun is near impossible to avoid on reaction even with stellar ping.
Far less counter play than Sona, who's kit only has 1 single ability that can actually be countered in any way? If you say so buddy.
DeathBurst1 votesWell, about the W, that's why they changed it from a pure heal to a heal+shield. If you just heal passively and do not time your spells to also use the shield, you're basically wasting half your mana.
Solidair35 votes"hate" Sona.
Windspeaker's Blessing is one of the best things to happen to her. Sona is stronger than ever. http://champion.gg/champion/Sona
Aeolian Melodies6 votes"hate" Sona.
Windspeaker's Blessing is one of the best things to happen to her. Sona is stronger than ever. http://champion.gg/champion/Sona
Yeah, and that mastery that is so instrumental (pun intended) to her success is at risk of getting gutted because of abusers (aka 
), is she going to get compensatory buffs then? I doubt it.
Solidair33 votesNo, and why would she? Sona is spirting a 55% winrate.
Just because she doesn't feel satisfying to many does not make her weak.
SnugglePuggle948 votesAre you serious, @Meddler? She doesn't need nerfs she needs buffs! That's exactly what you are doing to Eve, nerfing consistently when she is already nerfed to hell. Sona needs help, not being run into the ground like you guys already are doing.
Aeolian Melodies7 votesOverall basically still the same as per my post in this thread:
http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/EkxbfyvO-so-lemme-get-this-straight
Preseason's also increased her effectiveness a noticeable amount, so if we felt compelled to make balance adjustments to her I'd imagine they'd be nerfs not buffs. There are certainly some supports that are more dominant overall, we've either just nerfed, or are in the process of nerfing, those that are over the line though (some of whom will probably need further work too - looking at you Brand).
lmao
even now they can't spell "Sona changes" without "nerfs"
okay let's leave her untouched forever, deal?
BTW Thresh has been "over the line" ever since his release, and Tahm was PUSHED "over the line" with like 4 straight patches of buffing after his release, but hey, if we balance Sona we should nerf her, right?
Seems about right.
LankPants8 votesI think if you're finding that Sona is too strong you're using the wrong metrics.
Given the fact that a lot of recent balance changes have felt very random and out of touch I'd say you're either acting with extreme bias or using some very poor metrics for measuring power.
Slamurai Jack8 votesOverall basically still the same as per my post in this thread:
http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/EkxbfyvO-so-lemme-get-this-straight
Preseason's also increased her effectiveness a noticeable amount, so if we felt compelled to make balance adjustments to her I'd imagine they'd be nerfs not buffs. There are certainly some supports that are more dominant overall, we've either just nerfed, or are in the process of nerfing, those that are over the line though (some of whom will probably need further work too - looking at you Brand).
Prepare for a mountain of downvotes for even daring to use the words "Sona" and "nerf" in the same sentence. The only way you could create more of an uproar is by putting "Yasuo" and "buff" in the same sentence. And we both know either of those ideas would be completely absurd even though Sona has a 55% winrate atm and Yasuo is at 45%. Completely absurd.
Aeolian Melodies8 votes[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i4mbjszh,comment-id=00030006,timestamp=2015-12-13T03:36:32.813+0000)
Prepare for a mountain of downvotes for even daring to use the words "Sona" and "nerf" in the same sentence. The only way you could create more of an uproar is by putting "Yasuo" and "buff" in the same sentence. And we both know either of those ideas would be completely absurd even though Sona has a 55% winrate atm and Yasuo is at 45%. Completely absurd.
yo do realize that Yasuo's winrate suffer from how many people that suck at him play him because "op", right?
by the "win rate logic", Sona is stronger than Thresh, so...
Slamurai Jack4 votesYasuos with 125+ games are only winning 48% of the time. Explain that. Please find some way to spin that number into him still being OP somehow. I'm eager to see just what kind of mental gymnastics you'll pull off.
MrWasjig5 votesI find it cute that people use winrate alone to argue how good a champion is x3
Slamurai Jack4 votesI find it baffling that people can so easily discard the most meaningful indicator we have of a champions power level just to to preserve their own biases.
MrWasjig5 votesBut Win Rate alone is....just win rate alone. It can be scewd by playrate. Take for example, champions with a small yet dedicated player-base. They can have lower play-rates but higher win rates because the smaller number of players using these champions are really good at them.
At the moment Yasuo is more on the higher end of the play rate spectrum, thus skewing his winrate because there is a higher number of less experienced people are playing him.
Call that personal bias if you want, but that's just the fact of the matter.
Slamurai Jack2 votesI don't care about overall winrate, that doesn't tell us anything of value. But I very much care about what the most experienced players of a champion are doing, as that gives you the best picture of how strong a champion is when played by people who know what they're doing. We have that data. In Plat+ elo, for Yasuos that have 125+ games on the champion, they're managing to win only 48% of the time. As in even the best Yasuo's are struggling to make him work right now. And that data is far harder to handwave away because your "Noobs playing Yasuo drag his winrate down" argument doesn't apply anymore.
It Is I Emoto3 votesHey, Don't wanna bother ya too much, (and I know you guys don't really hate Sona,) but currently, Sona is the most benificial to play as an AP carry support, because her base stats on her utility spells are.. pretty weak. I often see myself building ap based items, mostly items like 
and 
to make sure that my utility actually scales well into late game. But the true nature of supports is, to still be strong without items that increase their utility or damage. I see Namis building 
and 
, and she still can be a strong support without building too many offensive items, so I'm wondering, why can't Sona be also one of these traditional supports? I mean, even her highest winrate build is mostly made out of AP items, with almost no utility. Compared to Nami...
You guys are sure with her current state when she's rather just a mage with a bit utility, something I'd compare to Nidalee?
Flemman6 votesThere are certainly some supports that are more dominant overall, we've either just nerfed, or are in the process of nerfing, those that are over the line though (some of whom will probably need further work too - looking at you Brand).
is it finally timefor thresh nerf? this guys shadow other support for such a long time that having him go in the forgotten zone for a while (like sejuani) could be a good thing for support diversity
DJ Di01 votesOverall basically still the same as per my post in this thread:
http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/EkxbfyvO-so-lemme-get-this-straight
Preseason's also increased her effectiveness a noticeable amount, so if we felt compelled to make balance adjustments to her I'd imagine they'd be nerfs not buffs. There are certainly some supports that are more dominant overall, we've either just nerfed, or are in the process of nerfing, those that are over the line though (some of whom will probably need further work too - looking at you Brand).
While I agree that Sona's way stronger in the preseason, I'd advise to not nerf her.
If she gets nerfed, and then either Frost Queens or Thunderlord's/Windspeakers gets nerfed, she'll be in an even worse state than she was towards the end of season 5. (Remember Sejuani/Cinderhulk, or Warwick/Devourer?)
To me, this indicates that she needs another rework. Her power is tied to the effectiveness of items and numbers, which in my opinion is not what is supposed to happen to a Support Champion.
Pika3104 votesIf you keep attacking the players this way, tossing your Sona-hating lies at us, you're just going to eventually ruin your reputation as badly as Fearless and Jag already have theirs... I'd suggest you start respecting the players and throw Fearless under the bus, lest you want to get dragged down with him.
DunkinNoobs2 votesHow many alt accounts do you have?
Miku Hime sama1 votesThank you for making it obvious(again) that you are unqualified for your job and clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
Arcane Azmadi8 votesSona's still trash tier, with absolutely no reason to ever pick her over a better support whatsoever.
But Riot hate Sona because she's too "easy to play" so they feel she needs to be garbage to compensate.
Literally half her kit is worthless. Nami outperforms her in absolutely every category (if you have the River Spirit Nami skin she even "outperforms" her musically).
Dominick Destine5 votes[{quoted}](name=Arcane Azmadi,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i4mbjszh,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-12T23:40:10.324+0000)
Sona's still trash tier, with absolutely no reason to ever pick over a better support whatsoever.
I.... agree.
I play Sona regularly because I like the design, but I only play her when I'm "Safe" (Not at risk of demotion), if I want to win I never pick Sona... I want to be able to play her without it being sub-optimal... why play her over Tahm Kench or Thresh? these should be the benchmarks that all suports should be measured by,
But Riot hate Sona because she's too "easy to play" so they feel she needs to be garbage to compensate.
Ironically I don't feel she is easy to play , precisely because of how ultra-low her defensive stats and defensive abilities are. One slip up equals death.
Anyway, I'd be down for a rework where she gets some traditional skillshots in exchange for some power/playmaking potential.
Arcane Azmadi4 votesWell yeah, that's the point. Since she's so "easy" to play, Riot feel the need to compensate by making you play with an utterly gimped champ to make up it.
Aeolian Melodies7 votes[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i4mbjszh,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-12-12T23:41:56.795+0000)
Ironically I don't feel she is easy to play , precisely because of how ultra-low her defensive stats and defensive abilities are. One slip up equals death.
Her kit is easy to play. It's easy to pick her up and not be confused by what she's supposed to be doing and how she's supposed to do it (low skill floor). Her lack of a reliable escape and her low defensive stats, however, make being efficient with her harder than it may seem when you just look at her kit (surprisingly high skill cap for a champion meant to be beginner-level).
The challenge in playing Sona mostly lies in her environment, because she is very strong against the type of champions she's supposed to be strong against, and literally gets eaten alive by people who are supposed to be strong against her.
Riot said countless times they did not balance champion around how easy they are to play, but Sona proves they lie.
Dominick Destine3 votes[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i4mbjszh,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2015-12-13T00:08:55.694+0000)
Her kit is easy to play. It's easy to pick her up and not be confused by what she's supposed to be doing and how she's supposed to do it (low skill floor). Her lack of a reliable escape and her low defensive stats, however, make being efficient with her harder than it may seem when you just look at her kit (surprisingly high skill cap for a champion meant to be beginner-level).
The challenge in playing Sona mostly lies in her environment, because she is very strong against the type of champions she's supposed to be strong against, and literally gets eaten alive by people who are supposed to be strong against her.
Riot said countless times they did not balance champion around how easy they are to play, but Sona proves they lie.
I tend to agree with all of that.
I do wish Riot wouldn't do what you stated at the end, crippling her because of her low skill floor.... it is very difficult to play Sona at Diamond because everyone knows Sona explodes so easily. Conversely, Thresh/Tahm Kench and even Soraka/Brand/Annie have much better tools for dealing with all adversaries.
chipndip18 votesTbh, they should just rework Sona when they rework immobile mages. It sucks knowing that your favorite character simply can not be a viable pick beyond trashing scrubs simply because Riot didn't realize they were moving away from point-n-click abilities when they did Sona's first rework. If Sona's strong, she gets nerfed...to the point where literally 100 percent of her value comes from her synergy with builds, not anything in her kit. THAT'S the problem. Her kit's garbage, save her ult, but her synergy with things in the game has the potential to be strong, so Riot nerfs her, but that just makes her feel worse to play. At this point, she has basically the lowest values for almost every stat. What CAN you nerf at this point?
Vesarixx4 votesSaw her recently in a list of ADC/Support combos that C9 Sneaky put out on lolclass and he actually seemed to rate Sona/Lucian as a very strong lane. She is better with thunderlords over windspeaker though, any high Elo Sona players I've seen this preseason have been taking it.
Aeolian Melodies1 votes[{quoted}](name=Raith alghul,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i4mbjszh,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-12-13T00:53:28.648+0000)
Saw her recently in a list of ADC/Support combos that C9 Sneaky put out on lolclass and he actually seemed to rate Sona/Lucian as a very strong lane. She is better with thunderlords over windspeaker though, any high Elo Sona players I've seen this preseason have been taking it.
Not sure why because it doesn't work with her Q+AA combo, you need to go AA+Q+AA to get the proc off which means more time spent in their range.
I suppose it's debatable now that WIndspeaker has been nerfed for late game.
Vesarixx1 votesUsually the combo I use is to get 2 stacks of powerchord, auto attack and then Q to get the third power chord stack for the auto attack reset, it's pretty quick that way and ensures you proc thunderlords
Dominick Destine3 votesI am Diamond. I use Windspeaker's Blessing, as does every other Sona at my bracket (Justifiably so).
C9 lost pretty hard at worlds, I would not trust them in terms of tier lists.... though recently Windspeaker's Blessing got gutted so maybe you have a point. I'll try Thunderlord's decree again.
Vesarixx1 votesif people have been using it I haven't seen it, I know Aphromoo runs it on Sona, it's the more aggressive of the two and increases her poke.
Aeolian Melodies3 votes[{quoted}](name=Raith alghul,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i4mbjszh,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2015-12-13T01:44:20.271+0000)
if people have been using it I haven't seen it, I know Aphromoo runs it on Sona, it's the more aggressive of the two and increases her poke.
But her poke is fine. It's her heal that sucks ball and WIndspeaker helps a lot.
A Wild AP Sona9 votes[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i4mbjszh,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2015-12-13T01:51:49.493+0000)
But her poke is fine. It's her heal that sucks ball and WIndspeaker helps a lot.
so because mid laners are squishy its better to rush 2-3 tank items instead of become bursty like they are supposed to? nty
its better to play on a champions strengths than just make them half assed at everything
[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i4mbjszh,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2015-12-13T01:50:01.347+0000)
I actually checked out your builds from Lolskill since you are ranked very high and I want to be as successful with Sona as I am with Evelynn, but even with your builds I had a lot of trouble. Nevertheless the recent gutting of Windspeaker's Blessing compels me to try Thunderlord's Decree again, I.e. I will do as you say.
And oh god, I hope Meddler was joking about gutting Sona... I mean... ugh... but at least now I know, I'll have to jump ship to a viable support if that happens.
yeah it takes practice but sona is deadly AF once you hit frost queen/sightstone/mobis if you get it down and has loads of roaming kill potential
Dominick Destine1 votesErrr, also I edited but I will ask again; How do you manage your mana with only FCQ? you don't even use the mana regen mastery and I see you have 40% (20% runes 40% items) CDR. Doesn't 40% CDR with only FCQ as mana regen murder your mana pool? Also wouldn't boots of swiftness be better than mobility for Thunderlord's Decree effect?
A Wild AP Sona6 votes[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i4mbjszh,comment-id=000200010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-13T02:00:15.211+0000)
Errr, also I edited but I will ask again; How do you manage your mana with only FCQ? I see you have 40% (20% runes 40% items) CDR. Also wouldn't boots of swiftness be better than mobility for Thunderlord's Decree effect?
well once you get FQC you shouldnt have any issues if you manage it decently if a fight is really really extended or its a long siege you will have mana issues but then again sona isnt supposed to be a soraka that keeps 5 people topped off
having more burst/dueling potential makes up for mana issues because sona is a master of chasing people down in their jungle and bursting -50% hp targets
catch with frost queen from 1-2 screens away then chase with massive move then pop ignite power chord ult etc dead sona needs as much cdr as possible to manipulate her power chords during fights and for repeated e to chase over long distances and rotate around the map
alot of the time you will be running beside a target with 2 charges already and have to wait for your e to come off cd so you can slow them again because if you were to just q power chord you wont do enough damage to secure the kill and then they just run off because you didnt actually slow them
as far as mobis vs swiftness
boots of swiftness could be slightly better in some situations if your level 18 6 item end game due to slightly better kiting but boots of mobility on sona offers a much stronger early/mid game and has more sudden gank/initiate/dive potential
ap sona is basically kill or be killed and if there is that split second opening where you are allowed to dive their backline and take out the adc/mid you want as much speed and burst as possible to finish the job because you may even have to go 1-1 for your team to win the fight
Dominick Destine1 votesOh wow you're right, I just realized you are running ignite rather than exhaust. Very interesting.
Thanks for all the insight, it was very valuable. I mean it.
A Wild AP Sona6 votes[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i4mbjszh,comment-id=00020001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-13T02:24:20.770+0000)
Oh wow you're right, I just realized you are running ignite rather than exhaust. Very interesting.
Thanks for all the insight, it was very valuable. I mean it.
sure anytime
feel free to stop by my twitch sometime maybe I love interacting with viewers and answering sona questions and you could maybe get an idea for how I play her aggressively mid/end game
Aeolian Melodies1 votes[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i4mbjszh,comment-id=00020001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-13T02:24:20.770+0000)
Oh wow you're right, I just realized you are running ignite rather than exhaust. Very interesting.
Thanks for all the insight, it was very valuable. I mean it.
Ignite has been the stronger summoner spell on Sona for a long time now. Can't remember the last time I packed Exhaust on her.
Flyer Beast3 votesNo, 
Needs to be nerfed. I'm sick of getting Kicked Like Annie kicks people More often than Annie can kick people.
PLEASE, WHY DOES SONA HAVE 15 AP RATIOS?
