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Win rate doesn't correlate to how overpowered a champion is sometimes (Irelia + Akali)

Śhunpo··31 votes·17,286 views

As the title suggests, I'll be briefly discussing how and why win rates on popular statistic sites are not the only statistic to be looking at, and specifically telling you which picks are absurd despite having sub 50% win rates, and which picks are overrated and 50%+ win rates.

First and foremost pick rate must also be taken into account, as well as the skill floor and ceiling for the champion and the ban rate:

For example, Irelia and Akali may have sub 50% win rates and may seem weak, however both of these champs have a high skill floor and skill ceiling, as well as sporting some pretty high ban rates each. Naturally a champion's win rate will be lower if they're a "perma ban" champion since opponents are always ready for that pick and have optimised their playstyle(s) against said pick (at least past Gold elo). Then you have to consider that most players are not using the champion correctly, which drags the win rate down; Akali especially has this "issue" since her kit is overloaded with options, and as such misplays also happen a lot more than for champions such as Galio or Darius where their overall options are pretty streamlined.

As for champions that are overrated, Shaco , Yasuo , Jax and Katarina come to mind (at least for me). Now, these champions are quite good, and their pick rates are fairly low, and their ban rates are fairly high; yet not as high as the meta-defining picks (exception to Yasuo). What this means is that you're getting players who know what they're doing on these said champions. This reasoning does not completely invalidate them being quite good, but their win rates aren't the problem here, it's the fact that their kits are fairly toxic and cater to the one trick population, while not being as popular as picks such as Irelia and Akali who have people attempting to abuse them and having no idea what they're doing. Also the higher win rate one trick champs usually possess toxic kits that are frustrating to play against.

What I'm trying to prove with all of this is that sub 50% win rate champions don't automatically mean balanced champions, and that there is reasoning behind 50%+ win rates.

tl;dr Irelia and Akali are ridiculous and they're being dragged down by awful players. I play both of them myself and they're incredibly broken (still). Both of them have overloaded kits which are toxic to the game.

88 Comments

Death by Glamour16 votes

the poster boy for this is LeeSin

he historically has always had a sub 50% wr but usually always has a 30%+ pr

I have to disagree with jax being overated, which other toplaner can solo hardcarry as much as jax?

ExpStealer2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Death by Glamour,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hsufXJsE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-01-20T16:23:54.007+0000)

the poster boy for this is LeeSin

he historically has always had a sub 50% wr but usually always has a 30%+ pr

I have to disagree with jax being overated, which other toplaner can solo hardcarry as much as jax?

Which other toplaner can abuse items and runes as hard as him? Maybe Ezreal, but even he doesn't get close to Jax's level.

3TWarrior1 votes

Aatrox Darius Gangplank Garen Gnar Mordekaiser Nasus Olaf Renekton Riven Tryndamere

if you look at this list, it's like half the top lane roster that abuses both items and runes...

ExpStealer1 votes

{quoted}

Aatrox Darius Gangplank Garen Gnar Mordekaiser Nasus Olaf Renekton Riven Tryndamere

if you look at this list, it's like half the top lane roster that abuses both items and runes...

Yeah, but not anywhere close to Jax level. The only ones who maybe come pretty close to it are Riven and Renekton ever since Essence Reaver's rework. Additionally, none of those do hybrid damage, so you can actually itemize againt them. If you're trying to tank a lategame Jax, well... Good luck, Yorick is waiting for you.

3TWarrior1 votes

well, conquerer makes everything hybrid damage, gangplank does additional true damage, as does olaf and darius and garen, tryndamere takes advantage of the item system itself by building glass cannon and wreaking havoc, nasus can deal hybrid damage if you opt for Ap but that's rare

even so, a lot of them deal enough physical damage that only the most durable opponents can overcome it

gnar I think does magic on his W passive but not sure

ExpStealer1 votes

{quoted}

well, conquerer makes everything hybrid damage, gangplank does additional true damage, as does olaf and darius and garen, tryndamere takes advantage of the item system itself by building glass cannon and wreaking havoc, nasus can deal hybrid damage if you opt for Ap but that's rare

even so, a lot of them deal enough physical damage that only the most durable opponents can overcome it

gnar I think does magic on his W passive but not sure

So in conclusion the problem with those champs is Conqueror giving them too much True Damage. In comparison you can remove Conqueror and Rageblade from the game and Jax is still gonna have half the rune and item roster to abuse, one way or another.

Śhunpo1 votes

You'll notice an immense spike in win rate the moment you look at a dedicated Lee's profile. The champ is actually really quite good atm, it's just that he's mechanically demanding, and you really need to know the ins and outs of the game to use him properly, since he's very much easy to stuff up.

Death by Glamour3 votes

The champ is actually really quite good atm

hes always good, riot has given him so many buffs that hes always meta

Leetri1 votes

Nah there's periods where he's been bad or subpar in previous seasons and he still was one of the most popular champions in the game. People just love to play him.

SilentBomber1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Death by Glamour,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hsufXJsE,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-01-20T16:23:54.007+0000)

the poster boy for this is LeeSin

he historically has always had a sub 50% wr but usually always has a 30%+ pr

I have to disagree with jax being overated, which other toplaner can solo hardcarry as much as jax?

While it's true that Jax is a bit strong i would disagree that he is the king of top lane.He has really hard times against many matchups and that is why he is mostly picked in jungle,where he can farm safely.

At least he doesn't have 21341234 dashes like Irelia or Akali.Those 2 have more toxic kits. :)

BringBackValor7 votes

Akali has 47 w/r in masters+ but I guess that's bad players dragging her down.

Fire Blaustoise2 votes

20% pickrate

Dyrreah2 votes

Yes because the 0.03% of the playerbase is so valuable to a statistical analysis which takes ALL ranked play into account. Easy, ever wanna see what is broken? Check out what TF Blade plays. He is rank1 for two reasons. He play incredibly well, and he abuses the most broken garbage the game has. In the last 3 months all the highlights I've seen from him are Akal Irelia and Jax. Curious isn't it.

SunDragonz3 votes

He was an Irelia and Akali main b4 they got reworked. He is just a good player and can 1v9 like no other.

Śhunpo2 votes

Yes, unless they're one tricks or borderline one tricks they'll be dragging her down. She's not an easy champion to pilot.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Just casually forgetting to mention the 22% pickrate and 70% banrate am i right?

Wouldn't fit your narrative then, would it?

Frosted Tips6 votes

To an extent you are correct, but in particular Akali is underpowered right now and even good players don't feel the rewards they should. I'm not saying Akali is healthy or balanced, because I think the thing that most people neglect to point out is that her sustain is insanely high. If she doesn't get bursted then she wins because she out heals while being untargetable for most of the duration. Yes the sustain is apart of the true stealth, but the sustain is what should be reduced because that is what isn't unique and what shouldn't be a part of an assassins identity.

Now I do not have the statistics that Riot has, but I believe Riot Blastoiuse has had discussions with Hashishin and posted stats showing certain champion mastery curves and champions like Riven show it the best where her low playrate players have around a 38% win rate or something and her mains are close to 60% I believe. I believe he also posted one on Akali and the defense was less and the mains had less of a peak. I would love to see where they are now because based off of my knowledge in my games and streamers games I would predict that Akali mains are closer to a 50% winrate maybe 51% which for a champion where mastering takes alot of practice I believe that number should be a little bit higher.

Śhunpo1 votes

I mean, from my experience she's still really strong. Whenever I play Akali I'm able to do well because fundamentally her kit is busted. Furthermore, I really do think Akali is a victim of not being played properly, as she's a monstrous one trick champion. She used to be monstrous for the average player, however now you need to be somewhat optimal, which a lot of players struggle with particularly in regards to her passive.

Imo they should just remove her "obscure" or "true stealth" since, while unique, it fundamentally breaks the game and makes it so that Akali can never be balanced, much like Jax and Yasuo have Counter Strike and Windwall, and until those abilities are balanced they themselves can never be balanced.

3TWarrior1 votes

counter-strike has been balanced because when jax dives, you're supposed to focus him with abilities. As a "diver" as he has been renamed from plain fighter/bruiser , it's his job to get to the weaker classes and pummel them. A tank should jump on top of him the moment he gets in range and the mage should fry him to a crisp or other such simplicities

auto-attacking also presents a lack of counterplay because it has an almost instant cooldown and can NEVER miss. When the auto attackers get to you and are allowed to attack, don't you die to them as well?

Just like mages are highly immobile or are supposed to be unless they trade a significant portion of their power or range for it. Assassins, divers or anything that can get close by chance gets to kill the mage

Tanks do burst damage but are vulnerable after their initial engage and are unlikely to 100 - 0 someone

supports were originally balanced around who could function with almost no gold income, but that felt awful to play so riot changed it up a bit and now we have a larger variety of support types from offensive to defensive

juggernauts have always been problematic because one shift in the balance can turn in their favor and cause them to go on a complete rampage, but most if not all of them trade their immense power for lack of mobility, often a lack of utility, lack of crowd control or if they have it it is easily avoided and if they have excessive damage it can be easily avoided as well

This is why generalist champions are problematic. They offer strengths with few weaknesses to exploit

Jax is a generalist, so when something allows him to go over his power balance, he goes on a rampage

zoe: generalist

yasuo: generalist

marksmen: originally were generalists but now it depends upon their kit as they are pretty weak to any engage

and of course, when an assassin can 100 - 0 a tank if they want, then they become the ultimate generalist but that's rare and usually due to other factors such as team balance

#lots of things are situational but as Riot pushes the boundaries of previously defined characteristics of the game, there will continue to be more problems, such as a champion with access to the ultimates of any enemy he can get in range of...access to the most powerful abilities in the game on individual cooldowns

3TWarrior1 votes

none of which is the players' faults but instead riot that wants to keep "obscurity" as a mechanic because it's 'unique" yet nowhere is it said that it's healthy

Madjack016 votes

While the general notion of this thread is true, there is an issue which needs to be adressed first before this comes into the equation.

I think a bigger problem than the lack of knowledge how to interpret the given statistics is that the boards display an image of being extremely untrustworthy when it comes to discussing balance.

For example the high amount of people complaining about Irelia or Akali is in direct contrast to your points about people knowing what they are doing and the majority that doesn't.

You can be pretty sure for example that lane bullies or champs that generally are in control during the fights they picked will ALWAYS be held in contempt by a big chunk of the community regardless of statistics.

There is just too much bias involved in this and most people don't even bother to keep that in check (yes, this is an assumption on my part, but it's one I'll have to insist on based on what I've seen)

Crispy0Snake5 votes

Yeah I think someone was saying that these champions always have the potential to make a negative situation a winning situation if they're played perfectly, or at least played very well.

The point is, just because 51% of players can't turn negative situations into positive ones on the whole, that doesn't mean the champion is bad or underwhelming. The possibility is always there whereas it isn't for other champions.

Like if there's a 20% chance you can win a situation that the avg champ will fail in 99% of the time if played perfectly due to your mobility/burst/invis/resistance, and you fail, that doesn't mean you weren't 20 times more likely than a normal champion to win it, it doesn't mean your champ isn't OP

Tbh though winrates mean very little in low elo unless your champion is really off the beaten track. A silver Akali will still pop off if they play their champ better than their silver laner

Hold Ma Baguette5 votes

Ye their awful performance even in diamond+ shows exactly how OP they are right? But god forbid I try to argue otherwise I'll be told I'm wrong cuz reasons. Also ban rate is a terrible way to judge how strong a champion is, after all Zed and yasuo have pretty high ban rates while actually OP picks like Cassiopeia or kassadin barely get any attention. Not saying they're unplayable or anything but they're are far from being as Op as everyone on these boards claim them to be (especially Akali )

Śhunpo3 votes

Ban rates = frustration. Frustration generally = kits that have elements to them that are outright broken.

Cass and Kass are another story though, their win rates should signify why they're broken, as well as their pick rates. Galio too, 53% win rate and 24% pick rate, well geez, I wonder if he's broken or not :o

Champs with high ban rates generally have overloaded kits, so it's not surprising that Yasuo, Akali, Irelia and Zed are up there. Then you have to consider that their playstyles are quite degenerative, and the way they play their lanes makes people want to tear their hair out. That in itself is "broken", just not meta "broken". That comes down to fundamentals.

Tormentula4 votes

Agreed with everything but Jax isn't overrated by any means or catered to one tricks

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/389945345594884098/536609422139588608/unknown.png

While conqueror is to blame for right now (which is only the case for lane jax because most JG jax go PTA), jax has historically always been either just ok or broken and right now he's broken, either conq has to go for a start or he has to get nerfed (IMO both, better yet rework him already) but for as long as conq IS here, something needs done about him, whether its increasing his E cooldown or reducing the amount of time it last so he doesn't counter a large percentage of the game.

Frog goes moo4 votes

You said that jax and yasuo have a "fairly low pickrate??!?!?!?!?!?!"

What? Yasuo is the number one picked mid laner in all elos and jax remains in the top 5 playrate top laners and top 9 playrate junglers for all elos. I don't really know much about shaco, but also katarina's isn't that low either. She's above average playrate.

i don't think you've researched any of the playrate numbers mate

So I actually checked shaco's in the middle of making this and shaco has the same playrate as irelia. Also both yasuo and jax have higher playrates than irelia and akali.

Another thing is that banrate doesn't really have much to do with how strong or overpowered a champion is. It can just be due to how frustrating they are to play against and how well it synergizes in solo queue. That's why yasuo and akali have such high playrates. Akali is strong and has potential but not as her banrate implies. It has more to do with her W mechanic's frustration than her strength as a champion. Ivern, not ardent censor ivern, released ivern had the same problem when daisy had healing. Not because of how strong he was but just how frustrating it was to go against and how much playstyle freedom players have to give up to play against it. This includes yasuo's windwall.

Another thing that a rioter, riot phreak, has said is (agreeing a little with your post) is that there are certain champions that need to be below 50 percent to feel fair. Renekton, leblanc, etc. When those champions are average or even above average, the game isn't fun for anyone.

I agree with what the majority of what you're saying, but how unpopular and overrated you think those champions are isn't right.

DuskDaUmbreon4 votes

Okay. But Akali's winrate is significantly below 50%.

It's not like "oh they're at 48%", no, her global winrate is 44%, and only reaches 48% in diamond.

Akali isn't op. Stop pretending she is.

Karfuss4 votes

Champions with a high skill ceiling always have deceptively low win rates. Lee Sin, and the mains adamantly defending him while citing his winrate, were guilty of self-preservation for years.

Akali, Riven and Irelia in the hands of ~97% of the playerbase aren't THAT bad, but when its in the hands of their mains... They become problematic, with their win rates deviating from the average by up to 5-10%.

High skill cap champions typically have more in their kit, and when executed well, have more tools for any given situation. These extras often make those champions toxic and broken, and some are freely given (Akali's W resetting turret aggro for diving purposes). A Riven animation cancelling and using her combo in 0.40 secs, executing you within her one second stun duration (this is often done via a macro) is toxic. A Riven who rarely if ever animation cancels outside of using Tiamat isn't, and makes the champion appear underpowered.

Reaper Soraka3 votes

We've actually been over this. And Riot has been over this a long time ago.

The idea doesn't stick to people. 50% = balance. 51 = slightly op, unless it's a popular champion then it's definitely op. 49 = needs buff, even if it's a 30% pick rate like Thresh or something.

Death by Glamour16 votes

We've actually been over this. And Riot has been over this a long time ago.

a 49%wr with 30%pr needs buffed???? Source this please because that is absolute bonkers

Nevrankroaton2 votes

Statistic doesn't work that way...

If you see big WR difference between people mastering a champ and people not mastering said champ, it can say a lot about how unbalance he can feel. If you see a WR up for people with low mastery on a champ but no WR increase for the one mastering, it can say a lot about the balance.

Stability isn't a problem or a crime, in statistic you don't become crazy because 500 person have 51%. you become crazy when 500 person get from 51% to 54% because the change is mathetically significative and can be reproduced if the sample was with 1000 or 1 000 000 people.

49% WR with 30% PR isn't a fallacy if you say "the number isn't problematic". but trust me the moment the 30% PR champ gain like 1% or 1,5% WR increase, then you can consider it MASSIVE. 49% is still 49%. We need to look at the deviation and other work to then see if things are extremely stable or super variant or shit like that.

3TWarrior1 votes

shouldn't it be balanced around feeling fair to play as and against?

the best players can get up to 80% win rates on such champions because they have tools to deal with every situation

for example, if 70% of players have a 40% win rate and 30% of players have a 70% win rate, the average win rate is 49% , yet that still means that 3 out of 10 people are going to hand your butt to you on a silver platter

ExpStealer1 votes

{quoted}

shouldn't it be balanced around feeling fair to play as and against?

Yasuo, Zoe and Neeko exist, so that should answer the question :D Many things should be, but aren't.

Nevrankroaton1 votes

Yeah, it is why WR talk and PR talk is like a board type of BS attitude when they search for any proof that can approve the current mood/feeling of the poster. It is tunnel vision at its best.

For example, let's say release Zoe was with a very low WR okay? Like all along, just bad win rate. She would STILL be super frustrating and shitty to fight against because nuke from the moon + sleep bubble.

Let's say a champion has a 52% WR with the highest of its playerbase being 55% BUT the champion isn't frustrating to fight against. It certainly show a kind of issue BUT people won't complain about it like Zoe do.

It is why you see people talk more about Yasuo/Lucian/Ahri that some other pick that are very strong and concerning too.

BestPudgeNA3 votes

INB4 you get downvoted for speaking the truth.

I've said this over and over again. Whenever a champ is strong people that are bad at the champ, autofilled ect will pick the camp an drag the WR down. It also means they get counterpicked more often because they're getting taken really early in the draft. When champs are OP they will also take players to a much higher elo then they belong

Lil Homie busta3 votes

Another way to look up a champion's power is to observe their high level one-trick ponies; through this, one can see how strong the champion can get in the right hands, which shows its potential and skill celling.

Dyrreah3 votes

I don't know. Some champs are just made to be unhealthy for the game I guess on purpose. Explain with anything else why Riven exists. Yes she has an extreme skill ceiling I don't doubt that. But if the player is an actual Riven main who has the hours and practice in it you are basically toast. And even worse her entire kit is based on what? Animation cancelling which IMO is kinda dumb. The reason there aren't many good rivens is that learning an actual control that basically breaks the games laws is something that takes way more time than an actual human being puts into a video game. And let's not get started on what happens if a riven gets ahead. "But but but she's haaaaard" Yeah she is. I know I suck dick at Riven. That's still no excuse for the overloaded kit she has. Which other character has that much mobility, which are completely neutral BTW not offensive or defensive 2 ccs out of 4 abilities that amount of damage without resources AND with the proper combo being literally unfollowable with untrained eyes? Champions like her are unhealthy and that's it. I love her looks her idea her lore and I'd love to play her but I'm not a mechanical player. Literally only onetricks can play her decently and those are generally ppl who can afford to spend 8 10 hours a day playing the game. And the rest of us actual human beings who have school and work and social life and just wanna play in out free time have to deal with those onetricks. U N H E A L T H Y

haaaaaaalp3 votes

I don't know why people still use winrates instead of pick+ban rates. Pick+ban rates (and often just ban rates alone if high enough) are a better measure of champion strength than winrates. Winrates are artificially deflated by high pick and high ban rates and artificially inflated with low ones.

flamingknight8882 votes

Don't forget about MonkeyKing being nearly unplayable while sporting a 53% winrate. As a person with dozens, maybe over 100 games of Wukong, I can only reliably make him work when I use him as a counterpick vs a squishy, melee top laner. Chances are, the better Wukong players are also using him mainly as a counterpick, thereby inflating the winrate.

ZaneShadow2 votes

Well, I mostly agree with you. this is very well argued and thought out post though. I enjoyed reading it and you changed my mind a little. +1

Highvoltage9992 votes

To be honest, I would rather lane vs an akali that. Like a lux as a mid laner, but the reason she is banned is the bot lane remembers an akali that got fed off the mid lane and solo won the game off that. I think she is balanced though, because if she's behind it's pretty much a 4v5

CUPoker2 votes

2 points

  1. You said Irelia and Akali have high celling, so their WR suffer, because people cannot play them. In reality, they have low wr in high elo too. If that is not enough, look at pro play. First week gone, both Irelia and Akali have sub 30% WR in major regions, while before nerfs, they had high win rates in both pro and high elo. They are not that strong atm, people just dislike playing versus them.

  2. "Naturally a champion's win rate will be lower if they're a "perma ban" champion since opponents are always ready for that pick and have optimised their playstyle(s) against said pick (at least past Gold elo)" - Seth L9

From personal experience, people past gold are not always ready nor they have optimised playstyle for countering picks. But even if we would presume that they are, most people complaining about those picks are Iron - Gold anyway, because those elos consist of + 80% of playerbase, which would mean that people complaining about those picks are (in most cases) acctualy people who arent able to play or counter those picks properly.

To conclude, If players who cannot understand how to counter given pick ( Irelia or Akali in this case) nor how to play it (that being the majority of playerbase, if following logic above) , what makes their opinion on power of that champ viable?

Exin02 votes

{quoted}

2 points

  1. You said Irelia and Akali have high celling, so their WR suffer, because people cannot play them. In reality, they have low wr in high elo too. If that is not enough, look at pro play. First week gone, both Irelia and Akali have sub 30% WR in major regions, while before nerfs, they had high win rates in both pro and high elo. They are not that strong atm, people just dislike playing versus them.

  2. "Naturally a champion's win rate will be lower if they're a "perma ban" champion since opponents are always ready for that pick and have optimised their playstyle(s) against said pick (at least past Gold elo)" - Seth L9

From personal experience, people past gold are not always ready nor they have optimised playstyle for countering picks. But even if we would presume that they are, most people complaining about those picks are Iron - Gold anyway, because those elos consist of + 80% of playerbase, which would mean that people complaining about those picks are (in most cases) acctualy people who arent able to play or counter those picks properly.

To conclude, If players who cannot understand how to counter given pick ( Irelia or Akali in this case) nor how to play it (that being the majority of playerbase, if following logic above) , what makes their opinion on power of that champ viable?

there is champion Nova in Hots hated, reworked and gutted soo many times, she was weak before and she is weak today never picked in serious game useless agains anyone who grasp basic concept of game but she is utter staple pub stomper with perma invisibilty (with shimmer effect) and Blizzard come to conclusion she is inherently toxic to new players and abused so they opt to destroy her rather then let her drive off new players and hurting whole comunity.

Śhunpo1 votes

Let me refute what you've said:

  1. They are indeed strong. Furthermore Akali has an 11% pick rate in Diamond and above and Irelia has an 18%+ pick rate in Diamond. So clearly they are not purely being played by one tricks, and as such this only further proves my point that players who don't fully understand their kits are playing them. Not everybody is a TF Blade.

  2. No, it's not just Iron-Gold players complaining about Akali, Diamond+ players are also complaining, and even the champs' playerbases are acknowledging that their champ is broken. ProfessorAkali and TF Blade both agree that new Akali is fundamentally broken and needs at least a mini-rework to have her even be close to balanced. As for Irelia ICU, wickd and TF Blade all think that her outplay potential is too much and that she can never be balanced. Wow, it's almost like they suffer from the same exact issues! You think Akali mains are happy with their champ being banned in over half of their games? No, they're far from happy, same to Irelia mains. It's like 2017 Katarina all over again (she sported a 44% ban rate then). I mean, I can agree that players haven't fully grasped how to counterplay these champions, however there are some players out there who have, and they still struggle with these champs due to the raw amount of options in playstyle they have and due to the fact that they each have at least one broken aspect that cannot be counterplayed besides attempting to avoid it (e.g. Akali's shroud). I also agree that they likely cannot play these sorts of champs properly either, so no quarrels with that point.

CUPoker1 votes

First things first,

I never said that only OTPs play those champs. I also never said that only low elo players complain about Aka and Ire, but that majority of people complaining are low elo. Reason why I never stated those points is because I cannot disagree facts. Fact is that not only one tricks play Akali and Irelia. Some high elo players complaining about those 2 is also a fact. But it is vice versa too. Some high elo players strongly disagree with Akali and Irelia being OP.

Not everyone practicing Akali and Irelia is the reason why I gave example with pro players too. They have tons of practice on their champions (Akali and Irelia in this case) and are heavily losing their lanes and games on those, while they were winning heavily prior to their nerfs? According to Leagueofgraphs, both of those champions are dead last toplaners in proplay by winrate, alongside Rumble with 25% WR. I personaly watched some of those games, and they seemed far from OP, while being played by some of the best toplaners in the world (ex. Cuvee)

BBQ toplaner (cant remember his name) stated that akali is bad pick top on LS stream, while LS didn't disagree. ICU stated around 10 days ago on his stream that Irelia is not that strong atm, and it makes no sense that she has such a high ban rate. Professor Akali made a video about Akali being overpowered few patches ago which was prior to her nerfs. At that point in time, she was strong meta pick, and couldve been considered broken, I cannot agree more on that. But it was prior to her nerfs. After her nerfs went live, he did another video, complaining about how big of a nerfs those are and he stated that she aint overpowered anymore. You can check it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyHzVro6SMc

TFBlade on the other hand is magnificent player, and might be the best Irelia on NA server. But if you check his win rates with Irelia this preseason on main account it is only 54%. It is not bad, but not great either. Funny thing is that prior to nerfs it was 63%. That is difference between champ being overpowered and champ not being overpowered.
You can check it here: http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=tfblade

Now lets jump to "broken mechanics" part. You said that there is no counter play to something like Akali shroud. IMO, having true invis and true sight makes no sense either, because they are contradictory. But thats another disscusion. Back to broken mechanics. Akali shroud is a good example of that. There is no complete , only partial counterplay for it. (as of partial I mean ability to dmg her, or find out where she is in a shroud) Most people would agree on that. But there is a distinction between broken mechanic and overpowered champion, which in almost every, if not all of disscusions I've heard is not separated. Broken mechanic is a specific abilities or effects that has no complete counterplay while they dont necessarily make a champion powerfull. Overpowered champion is champion that has too high chance of winning an average game.

While those 2 can coexist (but don't have to), broken mechanic doesnt make a champion overpowered. And that is a case with current Akali and Irelia. I am not trying to say they are bad, nor good , just that they are not OP.

IP Masquerena2 votes

Your thread would have a good point if not for one major issue:

Hypocrisy.

Let's take the stuff out 1 by 1.

You say that high ban rates with a moderate pick rate do show that a champion is busted, but then put both Jax and Yasuo as "over rated" champions. Jax has as much ban rate as Irelia, 1% (17% Irelia v 16% Jax) lower pick rate but 7% higher win rate (45% Irelia v 52% Jax), depending on site, those numbers varry a bit.

Are you going to tell me that that 1% more play rate is what makes Jax's win rate so much higher than Irelia's?

Yasuo is the 2nd most banned champ in the game, with 3% lower ban rate than Akali (52% Akali v 49% Yas), he has triple her play rate, (7% Akali v 21% Yas) and 2% more win rate than Akali (44% v 46%). If Akali with her stats is broken, then Yasuo as well is borderline OP.

Well, that's already hypocrisy, as you can't say "well, by the rules I set, X is broken, but even if the same rules show Y is also broken, he's not because I say so".

Then let's move a bit to Shitco, I mean Shaco, who just won't leave the S tier in the jungle. You call him over rated, but couple days ago, he had 8% pick rate with 55% win rate, being the top win rate in the game at the time.

Now, there's a problem here, we need to figure out what's a healthy pick rate and what's a good win rate for that pick rate? Let's look at Quinn for a moment, this gal had 54% win rate with a 1% play rate this morning. Sweet, so using her as base line point, if her pick rate would multiply 4 times, her win rate should also drop to around 51-52%, which would be a decent win rate for that, and 4% is around what you yourself call healthy, so Shaco, currently at 54% win rate with 6% ban rate, would be unhealthy. If Quinn's mains can keep her win rate at around 51-52% with around a 54% win rate of their own, what would Shaco's mains have as a win rate if his general pick rate is 6% atm with a 54% win rate? Close to or above 60% would be what's needed.

Now, you said in another comment that Akali's 7% pick rate isn't "just mains", so compared to Shaco, who you call "over rated", the 10% win rate difference shows that Akali's mains can't even drag her win rate to positive, despite Shaco's main, the poor clown who everyone calls "weak" and "trash" and asks for buffs because "he's unplayable" keep his win rate in the "OP" territory, despite both Akali and Shaco having similar play rates.

Now, here comes the main issue with that point: If Akali's play rate is healthy, while Shaco's win rate is "just held up by mains", that means that she as a champion is no OP, far from it actually, she's borderline hot garbage, because as stated above, her mains can't even drag her up to positive win rate. If the play rates are above what's considered healthy, then Shaco him self is not "over rated" but super under rated, as he should not be holding such a high win rate, because his mains should have over 60% win rate just to keep up what's "artificially deflated" by his pick rate.

Then let's all not forget the epitome of "say he's strong and you'll get crucified by the boards", the ninja so weak he had to seek forbidden power just to fight battles from the back line like a coward, Zed him self.

He has an 12% pick rate, 51% win rate and 30% ban rate. By the stuff you said in the OP, for having such a ban rate, he's already over powered, because that along with the pick rate will deflate his win rate, but....if Irelia's 17% pick rate and 35% ban rate can deflate her win rate to 45%, how much would Zed's win rate need to be for a 5% less pick rate and ban rate to deflate his win rate to only around 51%? If Shaco's mains would need around a 60% win rate to keep their 54% win rate at 6% pick rate, then Zed's would need over 60% to keep an 11% at 51%, not even counting the ban rate, so again, by your own logic, Zed, the one who the boards call "weak" because "even Faker said he's weak" is anything but weak.

See the issue of hypocrisy in your post? 3 of your 4 "over rated" champions are in the borderline over powered status (won't even bother to look at Kat) if using your own "system", but you give them "privileges" while others who are way weaker than the 3 above + Zed are what you call "OP".

VolatileAkali1 votes

Lmao Akali is trash, no matter where you see it. TF Blade doesn't even play her, she is weak as fuck at team fighting, spltting, taking towers and killing dragon.

All of these could have been done by any assassin and be better than Akali: Diana, Kha'Zix, Rengar, LB, Fizz (Not sure if he's weak currently or not), Zed, Kassadin, Noct and Talon.

All of them one shot better, a lot of them drop tower aggro, in team fight they are also way better and they excel at almost everything Akali doesn't.

Akali is it hard to play mechanically as much as other champions, you need to know macro really well to win. Which if you are not diamond 1+ then good luck winning with her.

Śhunpo1 votes

Every day, more lies: http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=tfblade

Yes, she doesn't 1 shot as hard, however she is still overloaded, with tons of mobility, defensive tools and sustained pseudo-burst damage. I think that's a pretty good trade-off, don't you?

Akali is mechanically demanding.

She is not trash, and that's that.

VolatileAkali1 votes

Well does he play her like before? He barely plays her.

Most Akali mains/otp's would sacrifice the overloaded factor for an actual assassin.

She is, but anyone that played assassins before can learn her easily.

She is trash, she's only good if your good with macro too, old Akali wasn't mechanically difficult. You needed to know what other people also knew. Macro and match ups. Right now they made harder for nothing and now your only good at killing people in the laning phase.

Only people who actually get the game win with her, and most of her community are below plat. Riot agenda to make every fucking champion harder is truly a dumbass thing. I'm not even thinking that they can fix her or Irelia. They'll probably be broken forever.

Ps4SAOAsuna1 votes

Akali is so easy to get fed or lose the game literally. Irelia is harder to kill later game, but she's weaker early game.

If you play overly aggressive with these champions you will lose the majority of your games with them. I just see poor play from these kids 25 and younger that think they are good but honesty not.

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