The Kai'sa nerf is a joke

Śhunpo·Sep 6, 2019·98 votes·21,509 views

Seriously? -20% attack speed on E? That's the best the balance team could do?

No nerfing her insane burst, no nerfing her insane shield, no nerfing her passive's consistency (teammates granting stacks)? No base stat nerfs? No evolution stat requirement increases? These would have all been much better changes to really balance Kai'sa.

But no, we got -20% attack speed on her rank 5 E...on a champion who already pretty much caps attack speed at ~3-4 items anyway... Oh, and she doesn't even max this ability first so it's still only a hyper late game nerf, which doesn't do anything since damage in this game results in games being shorter than ever before, especially in pro play, thus meaning that she's still exactly the same in pro play with the exception of outlier matches that go past 15-23 minutes.

I love how the balance team is fine with smacking Akali, Aatrox, Ryze, Azir and Rakan just because of pro play, but the moment Riot's skin sugar baby needs nerfs they just give her a lovetap. I guess she's getting either a Championship or Victorious skin this year. [sg-lulu]

94 Comments

Daddy AntsSep 6, 201947 votes

Akali gets smacked with nerfs because even after being nerfed every single patch since her rework, she's still an extremely toxic and unfun champion.

ŚhunpoSep 6, 201939 votes

As is Kai'sa. She's an overloaded mess who doesn't really have any "weaknesses" unless the player is awful with her. She has everything an ADC wants and needs and more, and is good at EVERY STAGE IN THE GAME.

Akali is toxic and unfun yes, but so is Kai'sa.

I also made a post about Akali, as I want her either reverted or reworked again. The current Akali can never be balanced (she is fun though).

Hi im 12Sep 6, 201911 votes

kai'sa doesn't remove 80% of my health with no counterplay while untargetable in lane

Tin ObliteratesSep 6, 201915 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eNEaMyLi,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-09-06T12:05:06.820+0000)

kai'sa doesn't remove 80% of my health with no counterplay while untargetable in lane

Are you saying you don't like it when a champion has 2 dashes to engage on you, but then also has one more dash in case they somehow fucked up and also have an invisibility area to hide in?! Ridiculous! - ritos banditos, probably

Its MoxieSep 6, 20196 votes

Excuse me buddy but you play tanky characters. Kai'sa is more then capable of of removing 80% hp with no counter play towards squishy opponents. Kai'sa q with manamune on an isolated target? I don't want to say you don't know what you're talking about, but I WILL say you need to try vsing her on less tanky champions. Because she's actually an assassin like vayne, only you die much quicker.

LatoyaFromTheBXSep 6, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi im 12,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eNEaMyLi,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-09-06T12:05:06.820+0000)

kai'sa doesn't remove 80% of my health with no counterplay while untargetable in lane

Kaisa's Q says hi

Tahminatrix Sep 6, 20193 votes

Don't forget the evolved E to remove counterplay.

inuitmailmanSep 6, 20191 votes

{quoted}

As is Kai'sa. She's an overloaded mess who doesn't really have any "weaknesses" unless the player is awful with her. She has everything an ADC wants and needs and more, and is good at EVERY STAGE IN THE GAME.

Akali is toxic and unfun yes, but so is Kai'sa.

I also made a post about Akali, as I want her either reverted or reworked again. The current Akali can never be balanced (she is fun though).

Is it just me who thinks she would be at LEAST tolerable if her q didn’t slow? Like why tf does it slow?:(((

Roke ThellenkellSep 6, 20191 votes

It does not, go read her abilities, you are likely getting slowed by either stormrazor, hextexh GB, runes, or a red buff. Though I think a good nerf to her would be to pause auto attacks during her Q as a Kaisa player as that gives her way too much burst as a ranged champion in an isolated environment. as for counter playing against her don't let her single you out, try and keep creep somewhere nearby to draw off half or more of those Q bullets to drastically reduce her damage, any lock down CC like stun, fear, suppress, knock up, or disarm destroys her damage output and with how squishy she is without ulti she will drop to even a low damage champion fairly quickly. Braum, Alistar, and Leona are her best allies but also her biggest counters in that respect followed by Nautalis, Blitzcrank, and Thresh in that order, out side her lane any real assassin or burst mage will out right delete her mid to late game even if she gets her ult since most of them have easy to land hard CC that makes her sit still and take it.

RtClickSep 6, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=Roke Thellenkell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eNEaMyLi,comment-id=0002000000010000,timestamp=2019-09-06T22:51:12.178+0000)

It does not, go read her abilities, you are likely getting slowed by either stormrazor, hextexh GB, runes, or a red buff. Though I think a good nerf to her would be to pause auto attacks during her Q as a Kaisa player as that gives her way too much burst as a ranged champion in an isolated environment. as for counter playing against her don't let her single you out, try and keep creep somewhere nearby to draw off half or more of those Q bullets to drastically reduce her damage, any lock down CC like stun, fear, suppress, knock up, or disarm destroys her damage output and with how squishy she is without ulti she will drop to even a low damage champion fairly quickly. Braum, Alistar, and Leona are her best allies but also her biggest counters in that respect followed by Nautalis, Blitzcrank, and Thresh in that order, out side her lane any real assassin or burst mage will out right delete her mid to late game even if she gets her ult since most of them have easy to land hard CC that makes her sit still and take it.

I think he was referring to Akali not Kaisa.

ImTheJuggernautySep 6, 20196 votes

{quoted}

Akali gets smacked with nerfs because even after being nerfed every single patch since her rework, she's still an extremely toxic and unfun champion.

Yeah screw akali. Too many options, too much safety, too much mobility, and way too much burst and even DPS to go along with those other elements. Why she ever had ANY CC at all baffles me, even if they are just micro stuns.

MoonšSep 6, 20193 votes

Old akali and new akali basically played the same way, if anything old akali was stronger because she can basically point click you to death much faster then new akali. New akali is just more mobile with skill needed to land everything.

ImTheJuggernautySep 6, 20197 votes

{quoted}

Old akali and new akali basically played the same way, if anything old akali was stronger because she can basically point click you to death much faster then new akali. New akali is just more mobile with skill needed to land everything.

They weren't played the same way though, and besides, no one is saying that old akali was a good design anyway. But no, it used to be if old akali was ahead, she pretty much snowballed to absurd levels and stayed ahead. If she was behind, she had a very hard time catching back up or doing anything of importance.

New akali though....if she's ahead she still snowballs to absurd levels and brainlessly deletes anyone before her: adcs, enchanters, mages, tanks, juggernauts, other assassins. If she's behind, she's usually just one kill away from getting back in it and becoming overbearing. And unlike old akali who essentially had only her pool, and otherwise very limited means of escape, the new akali has MANY means of escape, so that she can screw up INSANELY BAD and still get away scott free. It's just like how new pyke has many ways of getting out of terrible situations that pyke players get themselves into, instead of being punished the way they ought to for screwing up, like the majority of champs.

RagnaveilSep 7, 20192 votes

I think one of the problems that needs to be addressed is the movespeed from her passive. Like, it single handedly allows her to win trades and get out of range before more hurt gets layered on her. That and damage sustain items like DD and Gunblade. The healing % should scale with level and never reach 15%, in return the AOE penality becomes 50 or 75% compared to 33%.

Z3SIeeperSep 7, 20191 votes

Items aren't the issue. Noone else is breaking them.

RagnaveilSep 7, 20191 votes

Idk, DD single handedly keeps Aatrox from being in the dumpster completely, allows Riven to be juggernaut rank tanky while dealing high damage, you get the point. The item's themselves are not broken, its the omnivamp on the items that is broken.

Z3SIeeperSep 7, 20191 votes

DD is literally half as strong as Aatrox's natural 'spellvamp' and his natural vamp has no AoE reduction.

SebTheMaIIySep 8, 20192 votes

I gank spanked an Akali into a 1-4 2 levels down mess... And then she became 4-4 1 level up after one roam bot lane with just a hextech revolver... Gotta love how she can just q auto q auto w auto q auto you with no way to counter it besides flashing a basic low cool down ability because she always uses her E and ult to get away anyway.

Jesi OniSep 6, 20197 votes

{quoted}

Akali gets smacked with nerfs because even after being nerfed every single patch since her rework, she's still an extremely toxic and unfun champion.

They are not nerfing her because she is unfun... They are nerfing her because she is OP in Master+ Pro while still refusing to touch her 'unfun' W ability.

Also unfun Riven is getting buffed, unfun LeeSin is getting buffed and unfun Yasuo almost got a buff but they retreated on that idea.

Demon King MaouSep 6, 201929 votes

Tbh, almost everything they do lately is a joke.[sg-lulu]

Crimson ZeppelinSep 6, 201922 votes

honestly they should nerf her ap scalings as well. She should not have an incentive to buy hourglass

KanzlerSep 6, 20191 votes

Why?

Crimson ZeppelinSep 6, 201911 votes

{quoted}

Why?

Why not.

KanzlerSep 6, 20191 votes

Because guardian angel has an AD incentive for other adcs.

Because mercurial scimitar has an ad/lifesteal incentive for other adcs.

Why must kaisa have her defensive item not synergize with her build?

ArcflareSep 6, 20198 votes

Shes the highest scaling mixed damage champ in the game to my knowledge. You can legit build pure AD, Pure AP, or hybrid and because she has so much flexibility in what she can build, a lot of people think its unfair because she gets way more defensive options that synergize overly well with her kit no matter the situation.

KanzlerSep 6, 20191 votes

Boards: Bring back the option to build champs in different ways! Having only one viable build option is stale!

Also Boards: Kai'sa is stupid because she has multiple viable build paths! Nerf her so she only has 1!

Tahminatrix Sep 6, 20197 votes

Kai`sa is already strong regardless of her dynamic build path and the fact that she can abuse item 3157 and get away with it.

If that was a champion`s gimmick or most of them could do it then sure, balance them around it, kaisa unfortunately is not having much of her power budget allocated to being able to abuse items of both mage and adc. Its power that she just gets for free.

OneriosSep 6, 201912 votes

Wouldn't knock the nerf quite yet, the bulk of her damage comes from on hit effects so attack speed nerf could be a notable decrease in her power, and while she is highly popular she isn't exactly over performing for the bulk of the player base.

I mean, her win rate is held up by the fact she crushes ezreal, who also happens to be insanely popular, while doing ok against lucian (who is her third most common matchup). Things like jinx, xayah, ashe, and draven all perform well against her, but don't get picked as much.

ŚhunpoSep 6, 20195 votes

It comes into effect past 3-4 items, which is when games are usually over. That's the primary issue of this nerf, as well as the fact that she's usually almost capping attack speed anyways (usually sits at like 2.2 atk spd) even without her E.

I have to disagree with the latter part, she doesn't really have a single "losing" matchup since she's so overloaded. Even if she loses laning phase she outscales every single other ADC outside of Kog'maw and Vayne; and Kog struggles since he has 0 mobility, while Vayne has low range and is an ult bot, meanwhile Kai'sa doesn't have either of these weaknesses (in most cases).

-20% attack speed on rank 5 E doesn't matter if the game's already over thanks to her BPS (Burst Per Second) combos, long range poke, general safety and insane mobility.

OneriosSep 6, 20199 votes

Kai'sa actually loses most of her lane matchups except for ezreal and has a notable mid game slump, when kai'sa wins it's because either she got a crushing lead early due to outside circumstances (which any adc is going to be able to use effectively) or the game got dragged out past the 30 min mark and she outscales them. This nerf is going to end up pushing back the point where she moves back to being advantaged to win.

Now that's quite separate from kai'sa feeling fair to play against. She's kog maw that trades range for mobility, that combination feels horrible to play against when she has a lead, but it's much easier to prevent her from getting that lead then it might seem.

MoonšSep 6, 20192 votes

Agreed, most of the complaining comes off as people who just seem to refuse to learn match ups. Like once you learn the match ups, fighting her will become easier.

OneriosSep 6, 20191 votes

Eah, its less matchups (outside of ezreal, not having wave clear or an early damage threat means he gets pushed around all game) and more that kai'sa has terrible damage early and early mid game because her itemisation is all around getting her evolutions. If you could afford to sacrifice her Q evolution and so run bork first there would be an argument for her being too powerful as it would perfectly cover her early game weaknesses.

MoonšSep 6, 20192 votes

mhmm, and even then the best way to face a champion obviously more powerful then you or at least in the lead gold wise is to just sit back and farm. This is probably the biggest mistake a lot of people in league do is that they don't sit back and farm once behind.

Roke ThellenkellSep 6, 20192 votes

Not only that but paying attention to supports is a massive thing to a Kaisa player, with her low range certain supports can and do set up easy kills on her while locking her down hard, Leona leading that list, Braum and Alistar having the beefiness and CC to follow up, and then all the hook champions coming after with the ability to drag her into and keep her in unfavorable circumstances and stop her from using her kit to full effect.

ŚhunpoSep 8, 20191 votes

I'm sorry, but this is simply not true. Her laning phase is great as she's somewhat safe and her all-in damage is nutty.

Vlada CutSep 6, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Wouldn't knock the nerf quite yet, the bulk of her damage comes from on hit effects so attack speed nerf could be a notable decrease in her power, and while she is highly popular she isn't exactly over performing for the bulk of the player base.

I mean, her win rate is held up by the fact she crushes ezreal, who also happens to be insanely popular, while doing ok against lucian (who is her third most common matchup). Things like jinx, xayah, ashe, and draven all perform well against her, but don't get picked as much.

... Jinx and Xayah are popular picks right now, and aren't they right bellow Kai'Sa Ezreal and Jhin in adc rankings?

ﬂooSep 6, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Wouldn't knock the nerf quite yet, the bulk of her damage comes from on hit effects so attack speed nerf could be a notable decrease in her power, and while she is highly popular she isn't exactly over performing for the bulk of the player base.

I mean, her win rate is held up by the fact she crushes ezreal, who also happens to be insanely popular, while doing ok against lucian (who is her third most common matchup). Things like jinx, xayah, ashe, and draven all perform well against her, but don't get picked as much.

If they keep this kind of nerf, then at least lower it -20% across all levels. She doesn't max it first and her early damage output is already high enough as that she'd need an AS steroid that strong. I haven't seen the nerf yet and was glad it would actually lower her early so she isn't good at literally all stages of the game, but this isn't helping..

General Esdeath Sep 6, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Wouldn't knock the nerf quite yet, the bulk of her damage comes from on hit effects so attack speed nerf could be a notable decrease in her power, and while she is highly popular she isn't exactly over performing for the bulk of the player base.

I mean, her win rate is held up by the fact she crushes ezreal, who also happens to be insanely popular, while doing ok against lucian (who is her third most common matchup). Things like jinx, xayah, ashe, and draven all perform well against her, but don't get picked as much.

I don't think her attack speed late game has anything to do with her beating Ezreal or Lucian. That would only come in when it's time to kill the tank or a bruiser before you get bursted.

Bot110002999199Dec 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Wouldn't knock the nerf quite yet, the bulk of her damage comes from on hit effects so attack speed nerf could be a notable decrease in her power, and while she is highly popular she isn't exactly over performing for the bulk of the player base.

I mean, her win rate is held up by the fact she crushes ezreal, who also happens to be insanely popular, while doing ok against lucian (who is her third most common matchup). Things like jinx, xayah, ashe, and draven all perform well against her, but don't get picked as much.

still broken

Vlada CutSep 6, 20196 votes

The need to remove the ability for teammates to stack her passive up, it's more of a Void Slacking than Void Seeking(W pun). She DOESN'T need champions to stack her Passive, she can stack Plasma on Multiplate people at ONCE with item 3085 already.

Her Ult needs to have interchangable hybrid scalings, they need to make it so she get's the shield out of ONE superior stat the most, while other stat providing INFERIOR scaling. Say if you have more AD than AP on hybrid build her ult sclaings should change to high AD scale but low AP scale, and opposite. This SHOULD promote people to building one specific damage stat only(besides AS).

Or just make it that she has ADAPTIVE scaling on her ultimate with EITHER AD scaling or AP scaling depending which stat is higher.

Her Q needs lower AP scaling but higher Q AD scaling with a nerf to isolate damage, as well as lower base damage, and if it really goes terribly low then a buff to multi Q damage to make it more useful with item 3085 's bonus auto's. Is an AD evolving ability so AD stat should be superior to AP in damage ratio.

Her W needs to have lower AD scaling but better AP scaling, it's an AP evolving ability afterall so why have even scaling for both stats on the first place? Besides, not like it has actual base stats to nerf...

Her E needs LOWER bonus AS, lower bonus movementspeed when evolved(because you are basically going sonic at this point), LOWER charge time(so she can have SHORTER stealth but automatic compensation for lower charge time), KEEP the current CD because it would be fine as it is with E's stats NERFED. Increasing the CD on her E with stat nerfs would make the ability overnerfed and mostly useless(would take EXTREMLY amount of time to refresh it mid to late game unless you go spam max AS cap with Lethal Tempo, meaning less damage for having a non-damage keystone).

Her Passive WOULD'VE been fine if her teammates could stop stacking it for her. Another feature they should add is her Q stacking plasma(not just the auto after it) and also detonating it, it's just a suggestion.

RagnaveilSep 7, 20192 votes

Yes, the fact she gets what Braum gets for his passive is just wrong. Braum has it on his passive because he's melee, so ranged users can kinda slip away from him before he could finish procing it. Also Rageblade's Phantom Hit should not interact with her or Vayne's W at all.

SirlimpsSep 7, 20191 votes

What about gnar...

RagnaveilSep 7, 20191 votes

Gnar too then. The point is Phantom Hit should never be a crutch for getting on hit passives off faster, it should be about applying more instances of on hit damage.

AS I LAY FEEDINGSep 6, 20196 votes

The fact that the Q deals shit ton of dmg and not have to point click and not having a skillshot is beyond me.

Daddy AntsSep 8, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=AS I LAY FEEDING,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=eNEaMyLi,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-09-06T17:46:04.524+0000)

The fact that the Q deals shit ton of dmg and not have to point click and not having a skillshot is beyond me.

How you counterplay that is the same way you counterplay a Kha'Zix Q.

Make sure you're not isolated.