Tanks don't live longer than 5 seconds with current tank melting options

Hibeki·Jan 2, 2015·70 votes·6,409 views

Living proof right here.

http://i.imgur.com/z2D4oMJ.jpg

He didn't die from thornmail, because he has lifesteal to negate it.

140 Comments

CharQueenJan 2, 201563 votes

I would try and say something like, 'it's damage not done to your team' but they are all dead

Ironclad DragonJan 2, 201551 votes

Rito's racist towards tanks.

bwoodayJan 2, 201523 votes

Don't even see a point on going full tank anymore.

Ironclad DragonJan 2, 201513 votes

Kill or be killed.

HibekiJan 2, 20159 votes

dog eat dog.

I don't want to eat dogs T_T

Ironclad DragonJan 3, 20154 votes

Burst or be bursted.

IceKingChernobogJan 2, 20155 votes

Sad ain't it, Used to love just going full tank voli/mao/cho now it's you gotta build at least 2 damaging items then go tanky. That way you can actually do damage while tanking. Go full tank and you can expect the enemy team to melt you with in 3 seconds with armor pen and magic pen items/masteries.

J3 e c k e t tJan 2, 201520 votes

If Thornmail had grevious wounds, this crap wouldn't be a problem.

MajorPain9Jan 2, 20159 votes

This is the best idea I have seen here.

J3 e c k e t tJan 3, 20152 votes

It isn't my idea. I saw a post on it a while back, so don't give me the credit xD.

HibekiJan 3, 20152 votes

Probably my post.

TrumpetJan 2, 20154 votes

Someone should do an in-depth analysis (with math) of what that would do and then make a thread about why it would be beneficial to the game.

This is a great concept, and I really hope Riot implements it because it would help give tanks some relevance in the meta.

HibekiJan 3, 20152 votes

I already did, check here http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/1aPTmN1W-thornmail-should-apply-reduced-healing-from-auto-attacks-not-grevious-wounds

NarasimhaJan 2, 201511 votes

Out of curiosity, how long do you want a tank to live?

keenscytheJan 2, 201528 votes

full defensive? ten seconds

NarasimhaJan 2, 20153 votes

While I think a longer lifespan is good, 10 seconds might be pushing it. Any champion that can survive 10 seconds of sustained fire needs to be looked at seriously, him/her or their items.

HibekiJan 2, 201525 votes

Maybe ten seconds is a stretch if they are being knocked out by full kits.

But 2 Q's from a yasuo and a few auto attacks from rengar and being indirectly hit by twitch shouldn't kill a damn tank

kunkudunkJan 3, 20153 votes

Amen. A fed tank should not die in 3 seconds from an equally fed carry assuming they built correctly.

MPendragonJan 3, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Amen. A fed tank should not die in 3 seconds from an equally fed carry assuming they built correctly.

I think this would have sufficed for him particularily.

1: Ninja Tabi's. +25 2: Iceborn Gauntlet (over Trinity Force) +60 3: Randiun's Omen +70 4: Frozen Heart +100 5: Thornmail +100 6: Ohmwrecker / Sunfire Cape +50/45

So this is about +400 Armour, not including Runes or Masteries, which could theoretically see you advance up to 470 Armour. Yeah I know that seems like a lot. Sure there's only 1,000 Health added to this, but you would have so much Armour that even with the Last Whispers your opponents have, you would STILL have 72% damage reduction. So slightly over a 1/4 of their damage would actually be affecting you.

Absolutely ensure that you have 21 points in Defense, with points into Critical Strike negation.

kunkudunkJan 3, 20154 votes

I mean he might survive the adc, but he would have no mr so he would die regardless from the others.

MPendragonJan 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I mean he might survive the adc, but he would have no mr so he would die regardless from the others.

Actually look up the match in which he played. He's against a Yasuo, an AD Poppy, an AD Rengar, and AD Twitch, and a AP Hybrid Support Sona. Derp?

kunkudunkJan 3, 20154 votes

In this game the full armor build would work. In general it would not. Plus Yasuo ignores half of bonus armor anyway.

WingsofGulgazorJan 3, 20153 votes

if you didn't see it's not a fed tank. Nothing is fed when it's late game and everyone has 6 items and I wouldn't really call you a tank when you only have 2 items against what you died against which is the enemy adc's which are suppose to counter tanks and are good late game especially twitch. Also tanks do more then just tank that would be stupid. They also cc and do other things volibear specifically is suppose to snowball the early game in the jungle or lane stomp his opponent so that it's a 4v5 and win easily and quickly.

So when you have a champion that is suppose to be used to win early against a very very late game team with twitch,yasuo,poppy,rengar all who are shutdown easily for the easy early game win. The nerf to yasuo was to his early game base health so that he had a harder time in lane but that doesn't matter if you let him get 6 items in the late game with a late game team. All these people are ad and if you want to call yourself a tank don't buy only 2 items against armor when your agaisnt an all ad hyper carry comp especially when your more of an early game tank.

Also we don't know how he died. Did he get caught out? Did he run in like an idiot and get hit with everything it looks like it considering he got hit by nami wave and poppy and twitch bork and poppy usually goes into the enemy team to dive. Also he has a thornmail so even though he didn't do a thing and had almost no armor defense items against the best late game tank melters he still did a lot of damage to twitch with thornmail. and then the other people in his comp like rengar and yasuo can be completely countered with exhaust. and as said against a team like that your not suppose to let them get 6 items the game is suppose to end before that.

Most tanks are tanks because of there kits so like gnar for his passive or poppy because of her ult that lets her live for like 7 seconds and do tons of damage.

also 4 seconds is a long ass time to be alive. Play vayne and get hit by a cc like annie flash tibbers or just some random cc and see how long you live even without much hitting you and if volibear flipped twitch he would probably die. Watch ziggs ult hit you for 60% of your hp while having more long range abilities that both zone and do a lot of damage to your team. so when against a late game team that does all ad with only 2 armor items as an early game tank with no abilities to gap close other then flash 4 seconds is a long time he almost got the twitch he had to be real close to get borked by him and it's amazing he got close with nami and poppy peeling for him and even then he got close so those 4 seconds don't look long he almost got the adc in a cc that would most likely kill him and he forced the poppy to not dive your adc but peel for hers and forced nami abilities essentially with an early game tank that is suppose to snowball and win early he almost killed a late game adc hyper carry against a late game hyper carry team that deals all ad damage with only 2 armor items and he diverted the attention of your whole team to do so. and if tanks die fast think of how fast everyone else dies in that same 4 seconds what was your team doing? Probably still dieing considering your against a late game hyper carry team but if your team comp was the same they would do a lot to the enemy in those 4 seconds and even though he still died that thornmail would still do a considerable amount of damage I mean think of the damage done to twitch sure he has some lifesteal but if volibear had more armor then twitch would have taken way more damage and remember how many champions like ziggs ult does 60% of adc health that itself would be enough to litterally kill him sure the twitch has a banshee's veil but that's easily popped and there's a reason people generally take QSS over banshee's veil.

OpistachJan 2, 201512 votes

Tanks are in theory...

Supposed to initiate the fight, and get out just before they die. Tanks should be able to do this, not get melted from 800 range by an ulting Twitch.

They need to buff tank only items, not things like Zhonya's or Athenes that have offensive capabilities as well.

They need like, an item that does the same of Alistars ultimate, but somehow regulate it so that it is not Overpowered on like assassins. Because that kind of idea can go wrong, anybody build on that?

JunkοJan 2, 20157 votes

Twitch had 22 kills, at that point he is SUPPOSED to murder an entire team with his ult.

OpistachJan 2, 20159 votes

Yes, he is supposed too. But he isn't supposed to kill the tank in 5 seconds.

JunkοJan 2, 20153 votes

Twitch barely dealt 2k damage (all AA damage shows up as his ultimate). For all we know Yasuo and Rengar could have dealt the rest of the damage.

OpistachJan 2, 20153 votes

I also will stand by the fact that I am not complaining about Twitch as a whole. Yes, obviously the whole enemy team participated, what OP wants to get across more less, if I understand. Is that tanks die too quickly in general. HELL! It's even a Voli, that passive is amazing, and he still died in 4 seconds.

Tanks need lovings.

EDIT: Also, what's the point of going tank anyway. Pick Irelia honestly, slap a tri-force on her and she can kill an ADC almost instantly. But she is a bruiser...

WingsofGulgazorJan 3, 20152 votes

also he only had 2 armor items and wasn't shot down from far away because he got borked by poppy and twitch and all of twitches team is a very late game team your not suppose to let the team he has get 6 items it's like letting a nasus free farm for 2 hrs top lane and not doing anything to win the game and to add to that nasus team would be weaker because there all late game focused as well so unless someone like twitch gets fed and roams around the map with his stealth and gets kills for his team to reach late game they will literally just lose. You want to know why people don't play much yasuo anymore? It's ebcause his early game was nerfed. Same with jax. Though this doesn't apply to late game and if you let a twitch a poppy and a yasuo and a rengar reach late game your going to lose and it's no suprise that a twitch can deal 2k damage in 4 seconds even to a tank especially since this particular tank is suppose to snowball his team early with either ganks or cheese his lane opponent and snowball that way he is an early game tank with only 2 ad defensive items. against about the most late game oriented and ad focused team you can get. Even then 4 seconds is a long ass time especially against that team when it's focusing you. Twithc only did half his life and poppy and twitch borked him and that means other people did damage to him and by his comments the yasuo Q'ed him twice while probably AA'ing him and considering yasuo and poppy counter tanks and are late game game oriented. I would the early game voli did pretty well with 2 ad tank items against full ad damage. especially since poppy and yasuo would rather dive then peel and thornmail would have done some damage to twitch though not as much if he had more armor. Volibear was also close to flipping the twitch considering he was close enough to bork the volibear and that would most likely kill the twitch but that team is so late game focused and since they all have 6 items they could probably 4v5 the team without twitch especially since there all ad and are tank killers and there tank only has 2 ad defensive items and though poppy Q does magic damage the poppy should be diving the enemy because her ult makes her a tank/diver.

JunkοJan 3, 20152 votes

um, tl;dr?

skippersdJan 2, 20159 votes

Let's see. If i play veigar, in the 47th minute i should have roughly 200 bonus ap from Q, and a full build. Roughly 1100 AP. That means that i can utterly delete two players under 2.5 K hp in 1.2 second. Compared to that, living full 5 seconds while being focused is not bad. The fact that you soaked up 4K damage and your team still lost, well that's bad.

The problem was, It's an Annie + Orianna + Tristana + Shaco + Volibear team. You have two form of engage, Shaco walking into the enemy team invisible with an orianna ball on him, or an Annie flash + Tibbers. You were against a poppy (who's a late game terror), with a Shaco (who is pretty much either a splitpusher, or die one for one late game, and volibear, who is also famous for his poor late game (He scales with HP well, but every other scaling of his is poor).

In short, you had a team that had pretty much 0 engage, against a nami who can ult and slow you all, and a twitch who can kill all of you while you walk towards him. I'd be suprised if you won that game.

Black Star 1299Jan 2, 20157 votes

Worst part is, Tryndamere, an assassin can survive longer than that...

fluxannaJan 3, 20153 votes

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!1111!!!!One!!!11!

DeusVultJan 2, 20156 votes

The funniest thing is that you got dealt 4646 total damage

You only have 4033 total health

Death recap only shows where 2619 of that 4646 toal damage comes from

So your left to wonder at where the fuck did the other 2027 damage come in, why death recap will list 14 damage when there is over 2000 missing, what type of damage that 2000+ was, who it came from, and what was that 613 damage that hurt you while you were already dead

Riot talks about clarity, yet death recap has been trash since the game began

HibekiJan 3, 20153 votes

Volibear passive heals me.

Death recap only showed that much damage, they had a Yasuo and a Rengar.

ProfDrDeathJan 2, 20155 votes

He didn't die from Thornmail because he had ArPen and MR. 30% of 1783 is 534.9, 267.95 after roughly 100 MR.

Also, your proof shows more like working as intended, tbh - Twitch is the highest damage AD carry of them all, bar Vayne and Kog vs REALLY high HP targets. And that is a full-build Twitch against a mixed resistances bruiser with two Armor items. You'd probably have lived longer if you had Frozen Heart and Tabi instead of Triforce and Merc Treads.

MPendragonJan 3, 20153 votes

{quoted}

He didn't die from Thornmail because he had ArPen and MR. 30% of 1783 is 534.9, 267.95 after roughly 100 MR.

Also, your proof shows more like working as intended, tbh - Twitch is the highest damage AD carry of them all, bar Vayne and Kog vs REALLY high HP targets. And that is a full-build Twitch against a mixed resistances bruiser with two Armor items. You'd probably have lived longer if you had Frozen Heart and Tabi instead of Triforce and Merc Treads.

You forgot that Thornmail returns the damage received before reductions.

I'm going to assume he's got 72% damage reduction, since LW pierces 35% of that, approximately 35% damage reduction. Divide the damage received by the penetration and then multiply the armour reduction beforehand.

So, not to make matters worse.

But Twitch dealt approximately 3,500 damage in physical damage before reductions, 30% of that is 1,050~.

TheKingDodoJan 2, 20155 votes

As if the death indicators are a reliable source of info :/

Very Fast RockJan 3, 20154 votes

Good sir have you heard of the one true tank Alistar?
summoner 3 Alistar summoner 21

Wînter FoxJan 2, 20153 votes

ITT: *"Oh 4 seconds as a full tank? That's a long time!" * Wow.

CindikleJan 3, 20153 votes

Where did the rest of the damage come from? I'm only seeing about 55% of the damage dealt to you.

Be nice if recap worked better.

It looks like you got focused down hard, the enemy team blew a lot on you. Meaning you had to of absorbed a lot of cooldowns that should make it easier for your team to take advantage of.

My question would be where is the rest of your team? I assume Nami/Rat combo did a lot of damage while providing a lot of disengage for the rat.

Don't get me wrong, take itemization isn't the best. But we're not getting all of the right data here. No champion outside of invulnerability effects should survive more than 5 seconds of focus-fire from a whole team.

Judging by the team comp, focusing you down was probably the right choice either way. You were the most likely one to bring Ori's ball into the enemy team. If they could initiate before Annie could they would overall win every time. Even then, your team doesn't have much to really do anything about it.

Overall your team just didn't have a way to handle their team outside of a flash tibbers or something. You were the 2nd largest threat behind Annie in a teamfight. And i wouldn't be surprised if Rengar took one of the squishes out while you were getting take out by the rest. The fact it took this much focus to kill you in 4 seconds should say something. Your team just couldn't punish them for blowing so much on you.

That's also why Voli really isn't played at the top. Everything he does is very transparent. Making it easy to deal with him without giving his team an advantage.

WooBeeWooJan 3, 20153 votes

The adc meta right now is bullshit

Twilight DrizzleJan 2, 20151 votes

Uhm not sure if it's relevant but you had Warmogs against two BotRK...

HibekiJan 2, 20153 votes

I had to buy health to counter the insane armor and lacking health from thornmail.

For your armor to be efficient, it's recommended to buy 100 hp for every 12 armor you buy.

And with last whisper, now you gotta buy 133 hp for every 12 armor you buy.

So with 100 armor and last whisper, I need 1.2k health for a balance.

JunkοJan 2, 20151 votes

You built an item that gives purely health, and 2 other items that give a large amount of health(granted Omen also gives armor). Against 2 Botrks, also you built a Spirit Visage against a full AD team. Also Mercury treads when** Twitch was 22/11**

That's really more of your fault

HibekiJan 2, 20155 votes

Tenacity for a team full of cc is necessary.

They have a mage too, you act like twitch and yasuo were their only damage dealer.

Warmongs and Thornmail go hand in hand. Armor alone is not efficient and health alone is not efficient. You need both for a balance.