Can we give Singed and Shen scaling MR already

FalconPawwwwnch·May 12, 2015·130 votes·4,266 views

Seriously this is getting ridiculous, every other tank character received a scaling MR buff over the years: Alistar/Leona/Taric/Amumu/Galio/Gragas and others

You gave Alistar scaling MR when he gets the best damage reduction in the game along with insane base stats You gave Gragas scaling MR when he has longer ranged poke and better mobility You gave Galio scaling MR when he gains AP for building MR from his passive and also can farm from range

Why can't we just give Singed and Shen scaling MR already? They're both not good right now and both could use this buff to at least be able to tank people like Leblanc.

Inb4 but Singed gets a ton of MR from his ultimate! Galio gets more from using W

Seriously, Singed and Shen are forced to go scaling MR runes now because they only start with 30 but effectively double that with just scaling MR blues. At least Shen can farm from range, Singed has been autolosing to AP champions for 5 years now in lane: he'll never be competitive as long as he gets deleted by picking any AP champ against him

46 Comments

badoogaMay 12, 201516 votes

Makes sense considering even Galio has it

SirLapseMay 12, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Makes sense considering even has it

That's because Grail, his main item, got a MR nerf. The MR per level was to compensate, but Galio still loses an early game advantage due to not being able to BUY most of his MR that he misses.

I feel that sometimes people forget to read patch notes.

DUDE BROMay 13, 20155 votes

_Riot once said no, because Shen is not a bruiser/fighter but has the ability to be one. (I guess with his dash? Galio doesn't have a reliable dash)

If they gave him free MR, then he would go full damage. With no free MR, he's forced to build it, like the tank he should be._

^ That's their logic, and sounds completely idiotic to me. That could be said about any tank really. You don't make tanks weaker so they're forced to build tanky just to keep up with non-tank champions. Stupid.

48983507DEL1May 12, 20159 votes

Maokai Doesn't have it either, and he's about as tanky as they come (considering his ultimate).

The only other melee champions without scaling MR are Yasuo and , which makes sense because Yasuo gets a shield for right clicking (and Windwall for fucks sake) and Kassadin ignores 15% of all magic damage anyway. However, these three TANKS shouldn't be denied scaling magic resist when someone like Akali gets the resistance to burst damage naturally, while also getting mobility, spellvamp, and extreme sticking power.

One ayyed kingMay 13, 20151 votes

Honestly I would prefer if they just gave Yasuo and Kassadin scaling MR and reduced the power of there passives to compensate. in both cases there passives don't really equal out to the amount of effective HP they lose come mid to late game. Keeping there passives strong and not giving them scaling MR makes them stronger when there supposed to be weak(early game) and weaker when there supposed to be strong(late game).

That and there are other hyper mobile melee champions who have scaling MR and good damage and defensive steroids of there own to boot Zed Riven LeeSin . not giving it to kass and yas just seems unfair, Id rather they just be balanced with it.

48983507DEL1May 13, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Least Pro Lee NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hs310O4c,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-05-13T04:35:18.393+0000)

Honestly I would prefer if they just gave Yasuo and Kassadin scaling MR and reduced the power of there passives to compensate. in both cases there passives don't really equal out to the amount of effective HP they lose come mid to late game. Keeping there passives strong and not giving them scaling MR makes them stronger when there supposed to be weak(early game) and weaker when there supposed to be strong(late game).

That and there are other hyper mobile melee champions who have scaling MR and good damage and defensive steroids of there own to boot . not giving it to kass and yas just seems unfair, Id rather they just be balanced with it.

I agree, they probably should give Kassadin scaling MR (maybe slightly less than others) considering how bad of a state he is in at the moment. Yas on the other hand has a majorly overloaded kit already, boasting a shield for walking around that procs on damage, 100% crit chance essentially (it does less damage but who notices anyway), spamable damaging spells that can crit and knockup for longer than others, a wall that blocks projectiles, a relatively infinite amount of gap closers that deal magic damage, an ultimate that does a large amount of damage and keeps enemies disabled, and gets 50% (holy shit) armor pen for that duration. He's strong early game, strong mid game, and strong late game. I really think adding more resistance to burst make him just absurdly broken.

One ayyed kingMay 14, 20151 votes

Riven, Lee sin and Zed all boast higher mobility then yasuo in any situation where there isn't a minion wave present while also maintaining strong defensive tools. Rivens shield has both a lower cooldown and higher value then yasuo's come mid to late game and she is also naturally tanker, still has scaling MR. Zed has a much safer time in lane because of his ability to harass and farm at a longer range then yasuo. he also has an easier time engaging with his un-targetable ult,, still has scaling MR. Lee sin has shield and 2 dashes and excellent base damages with decent CC, still has scaling MR. The only thing yasuo really holds over them is his CC which takes time to set up and his wind wall which is a unique defensive strength that I don't think warrants him being penalized for.

I dont think an extra 20 or so extra MR at lv 18 is going to push yasuo over the edge and if it makes him a tad to strong id rather they just reduce his shield values a bit. As it is right now the lack of MR tends to hurt him a bit for reason that it shouldnt. Not because he got caught out and bursted by some mage but because he has to deal with the ambient magic damage of jungle tanks and top lane cinderhulk users and I don't think its fair that he has to deal with taking more damage then his other melee peers when they can match him in both evasion and surpass him in tankiness.

ThePlasticSporkMay 12, 20157 votes

Eh. Shen is kind of a problematic champion anyway.

I'm not sure why people seem to occasionally forget that there WAS a time where Shen was extremely overbearing - he has targeted, effectively free harass in lane, which brings with it a wide variety of problems all in its own. Just about every champion that has or had targeted ranged low CD harass has gotten nerfs (see Ryze and Pantheon), and many of those still had mana costs attached. Shen doesn't even have mana to contend with. Additionally, the way his taunt works in conjunction with his spammable shield makes it nearly impossible to win trades if he deals any decent kind of damage, so his damage numbers have to be kept low to prevent him from freely rolling over other top laners.

Finally, global pressure is absurdly strong in general and there's a good reason that global abilities have been nerfed across the board. I think there's a pretty good case for keeping Shen on the weaker side of things.

Maybe you could argue something else for Singed, but for Shen? There's good reasons for his deficiencies.

HateDaddyMay 13, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Eh. Shen is kind of a problematic champion anyway.

I'm not sure why people seem to occasionally forget that there WAS a time where Shen was extremely overbearing - he has targeted, effectively free harass in lane, which brings with it a wide variety of problems all in its own. Just about every champion that has or had targeted ranged low CD harass has gotten nerfs (see Ryze and Pantheon), and many of those still had mana costs attached. Shen doesn't even have mana to contend with. Additionally, the way his taunt works in conjunction with his spammable shield makes it nearly impossible to win trades if he deals any decent kind of damage, so his damage numbers have to be kept low to prevent him from freely rolling over other top laners.

Finally, global pressure is absurdly strong in general and there's a good reason that global abilities have been nerfed across the board. I think there's a pretty good case for keeping Shen on the weaker side of things.

Maybe you could argue something else for Singed, but for Shen? There's good reasons for his deficiencies.

In season two and even season 3, I would absolutely have agreed with this. Here's the thing, there have been so many changes in general to this game since then through itemization, champions and buffs/nerfs to other champions that push shen out. Not to mention TP is a must in top lane, in many ways this actually hurts Shen.

But let's look at it like this:

New Doran's Shield is so stupid good against Shen it's not even funny. Many champions in top lane outduel him after just a few items, Nasus or Jax for example. Champions like Vlad, Rumble and any AP top Laner is basically going to outpoke him or just flat out bully him.

I admit that there is a design issue, I think that's more largely due to his ult than his low CD spammable poke that he's never going to get much out of since he doesn't itemize to increase its potency. Most champions can buy spectres cowl and all but ignore him.

For Shen, if you were to buff him in any way, I agree his design makes it that you should look at potentially changing other parts of his kit so he doesn't become overbearing. But small damage buffs could go a long way. Frankly, I don't see any reason to ever play Shen top when Maokai and Gnar exist. And I think both Maokai and Gnar are fairly balanced. There's a good chance Shen could just need some small rework in general. I mean after all, what's ninja like about some behemoth tank walking at you slowly.

RecoiIMay 13, 20151 votes

As a Shen main in Season 4 and now season 5(He's one of my most played anyways). I've had very little trouble with the champs you mentioned.

Edit - Honestly as far as lane matchups in general go, I've never had an issue with most of the AD top champs and bruisers, being able to build armor straight up against them allows you to tank minions early enough that fighting in the minions with his sustain makes them almost a non threat after a couple levels of Q.

Nasus - Because of Shen's Q sustain and if you go feint at level 2. Shen EASILY out trades an early Nasus. and after level 4(or 2 if your jungle wants to super early gank). I have never had a problem against Nasus and have usually forced him out of lane multiple times before a tower goes down.

Jax - Bit rougher early game, but once again, haven't had many problems against him early due to Shen's sustain and ability to poke while farming.

Vlad - Honestly, this one I've had go both ways. During the early laning phase, Shen should be able to dominate Vlad just based on cooldowns and abusing his passive, Q and taunt. After 7 it becomes much more difficult due to Vlad's Q CD getting low enough to actually sustain during and after trades.

Rumble - Sadly, I do agree with you on this one. a decent rumble should be able to wreck Shen early and throughout laning( Ironically against Rumble I usually have a creep lead because of how hard they push and the nature of Shen's single target farming). However I have had games where, as Shen, I got an early Spectre's Cowl, and usually was able to stand toe to toe with him much more. The later lane matchup on this I think comes down to player skill and awareness of Rumble using his ult and getting out of it rather than fighting in it.( In lane getting out of the ult during a melee fight with rumble should be as simple as stepping to the side).

As for other AP top laners, If you can finish an early Spirit Visage, your sustain with Shen should usually outpace the damage they can put out. However that does make him much weaker against any adc's or AD champs the enemy team has.

As for playing Shen top vs Mao or Gnar. I will take Shen top over those two any day of the week. Mao and Gnar are both great, don't get me wrong, but the reason you play Shen, is because of his global map presence(The only truly global ability left I believe that isn't a skillshot ala Ez/Ashe/Jinx). Which if done properly can turn fights and losing games around. I've managed to save many and adc/support even when I get stunned while ulting just because of that shield I gave them. Or turn around a losing bot lane because the enemy chooses to dive the turret and I manage to ult in and then taunt the enemy under turret. I've also managed to get double and triple kills while surviving dives on the top turret.

All in all I think Shen is a great champ to play and master, but I will admit that in solo queue, he is under appreciated because people don't always know how to work with him.(Tanky support or jungle who runs away from a fight as I'm ulting in making it hard for me to get a good taunt in).

Now I will admit this is from the view of a consistent Gold player(Managed to achieve Gold 1 in season 4, just got back into gold from Silver 1 during the soft reset) and Plat and up players likely have a much greater skill in managing a Shen, but I still believe he is a solid pick for a team. Alright there's my 2c, I fully expect every point to be torn apart, I just hope its for actual reasons not the normal, well you are gold/silver so you suck anyways crap.

LakegaMay 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

In season two and even season 3, I would absolutely have agreed with this. Here's the thing, there have been so many changes in general to this game since then through itemization, champions and buffs/nerfs to other champions that push shen out. Not to mention TP is a must in top lane, in many ways this actually hurts Shen.

But let's look at it like this:

New Doran's Shield is so stupid good against Shen it's not even funny. Many champions in top lane outduel him after just a few items, Nasus or Jax for example. Champions like Vlad, Rumble and any AP top Laner is basically going to outpoke him or just flat out bully him.

I admit that there is a design issue, I think that's more largely due to his ult than his low CD spammable poke that he's never going to get much out of since he doesn't itemize to increase its potency. Most champions can buy spectres cowl and all but ignore him.

For Shen, if you were to buff him in any way, I agree his design makes it that you should look at potentially changing other parts of his kit so he doesn't become overbearing. But small damage buffs could go a long way. Frankly, I don't see any reason to ever play Shen top when Maokai and Gnar exist. And I think both Maokai and Gnar are fairly balanced. There's a good chance Shen could just need some small rework in general. I mean after all, what's ninja like about some behemoth tank walking at you slowly.

lmao ^ this 100% true.

Especially him probably needing a re work... I mean after all, what's ninja like about some behemoth tank walking at you slowly.

RoyaiChaosMay 13, 20151 votes

Shen used to be a nightmare. Bot lane was never a 2v2 after level 6 which was the stupidest thing ever.

Dies to WolvesMay 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

he has targeted, effectively free harass in lane

I hate when people use this argument about melee champions with point-and-click spells considering that every ranged champion in the game has targeted free harass, and on much lower cooldown

ThePlasticSporkMay 14, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dies to Wolves,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hs310O4c,comment-id=000b0002,timestamp=2015-05-13T06:27:44.277+0000)

I hate when people use this argument about melee champions with point-and-click spells considering that every ranged champion in the game has targeted free harass, and on much lower cooldown

And lo and behold, one of the most controversial topics in the history of League is ranged tops. Precisely because of that reason you mentioned.

Show me a ranged champion that's been taken top (which is traditionally melee) that hasn't gotten nerfed as a result of their interaction with melees.

Anyways, ranged ability harass has 0 disadvantages outside of the resource cost associated - it doesn't aggro minions, and it doesn't push your wave up. Just consider Vlad - if an enemy laner is in range of his Q, there is literally 0 reason for him to not cast his Q on his opponent. If they're in auto attack range, there are several reasons that Vlad might not auto attack. It might cause him to miss CS, he doesn't want to take minion damage, he doesn't want to push his wave up, etc.

Nobody really cares about ranged champions hitting other ranged champions with targeted harass for the most part. Ranged top laners have almost exclusively been nerfed due to their interactions with melees, not other ranged champions.

Lord DusteonMay 12, 20156 votes

For Singed, MR per level increases his effective health at level 18 against magic damage by 52.5%, or 2953. His normal health is 1937. Also for Singed, his mana per level + passive increase his health at level 18 by 13.6%, or +264 health (2201 total). This makes his effective magic health 2861.

So Singed loses out on 22.5% more effective health against magical sources for 13.6% more total health just via his mana per level, increased further with any mana items. Which in practice means he loses effective health against magic damage (at base stats 92hp) in return for permanent bonus health. While I can see Singed getting MR per level as a buff, they might nerf his mana per level, passive, or base health to make up for the increase as MR per level changes his 2861 (level 18 health x base MR) to 3356 vs Magic, which is an effective 500 hp increase against magic damage.

doublelift fgMay 12, 20152 votes

explain me how singed health is increased by 52% when he gets 20 bonus mr at lvl 18 which is 5 with sorcier boots?

Lord DusteonMay 12, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=doublelift fg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hs310O4c,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-05-12T18:52:28.031+0000)

explain me how singed health is increased by 52% when he gets 20 bonus mr at lvl 18 which is 5 with sorcier boots?

I probably explained that badly.

52.5% is with natural, base scaling magic resistance.

ChaoticPineconeMay 12, 20156 votes

but its a stat that every other melee champion (well, besides shen) gets. yes, his passive gives him some extra tankiness, but other champions passives can give tankiness too (shyvana/wukong). i mean, thats what a passive ability does - offers something a little bit extra. theres no need to nerf him base stats from interacting with his passive by giving him MR per level, especially on a champion that isnt considered top tier.

kJsMay 13, 20151 votes

Yasuo's passive. I'd just like to point out...

ChaoticPineconeMay 13, 20151 votes

that too. i just mentioned the two that were on the top of my head. Aatrox, Yasuo, Volibear, Mundo, Blitz, Vlad, Morde, and Poppy also have passives that increase durability. im still probably missing some.

Remlap1223May 12, 20151 votes

Singed is like Mundo: he's an extremely derpy hypertank. He's a lot better late game due to his fling and proxy skills, but Singed is still about as useful in teamfights as Mundo, Garen, and Volibear are, and that's not really. Just keep him from flinging your carry in a bad position and DON'T FUCKING CHASE HIM, and you're golden.

I seriously doubt that scaling MR per level on Singed is going to make him an instant ban.

HateDaddyMay 12, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Singed is like Mundo: he's an extremely derpy hypertank. He's a lot better late game due to his fling and proxy skills, but Singed is still about as useful in teamfights as Mundo, Garen, and Volibear are, and that's not really. Just keep him from flinging your carry in a bad position and DON'T FUCKING CHASE HIM, and you're golden.

I seriously doubt that scaling MR per level on Singed is going to make him an instant ban.

Lol singed will do the most damage in the game if it gets to late game. You don't chase Singed, he chases you. He runs around gas chambering your entire team and disrupting the front line, if he can get to the backline, even better. Scaling MR just means he doesn't auto lose to AP tops as hard, which would be a nice buff. And frankly, it's about principle more than anything.

Remlap1223May 13, 20151 votes

Remind me again when I said he shouldn't be buffed?

I seriously doubt that scaling MR per level on Singed is going to make him an instant ban.

I don't recall how anything I said there even remotely implied I wanted Singed to not get MR per level.

doublelift fgMay 12, 20153 votes

do you think that a poor mr scaling will make shen and singed viable?

please stop kidding, singed needs at least an actual strength then flying around

FalconPawwwwnchMay 12, 201517 votes

He needs 350 MS too

Don't know why he has 345 when he's 100% MS based

doublelift fgMay 12, 20157 votes

This may helps him but he will still have a hard time catching people, riot removed his tenacity now people just lock him on the ground and watching him desperatly trying to get the adc.

ProeliumMay 12, 20154 votes

{quoted}

He needs 350 MS too

Don't know why he has 345 when he's 100% MS based

Because Rito.

YfrappefortMay 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

He needs 350 MS too

Don't know why he has 345 when he's 100% MS based

If he can get that, plus MR scaling, plus removed mana cost on his ultimate (giving mana regen is pointless with how high his ult cost), I think he will be in a good place.

Denims Wrath666May 13, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=doublelift fg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hs310O4c,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-05-12T18:14:03.126+0000)

do you think that a poor mr scaling will make shen and singed viable?

please stop kidding, singed needs at least an actual strength then flying around

singed needs some love his way. he is nothing like what he used to be because of his tenacity debuff... and shen? shen who

SpecterVonBarenMay 13, 20152 votes

"and shen? shen who"

Working as intended.

Denims Wrath666May 14, 20151 votes

you're trying to say he is a ninja right? no matter what, there would always be a trace of ninja's work... so if there is nothing to account at all, he never really is there at all. cant be a ninja without doing something and shen is NEVER played anymore.

FadedpfMay 12, 20153 votes

Shen needs it. Singed could live without it.

VesarixxMay 12, 20153 votes

You gave Galio scaling MR when he gains AP for building MR from his passive and also can farm from range

He can farm about 1 wave from range then he's out of mana and needs to base

HateDaddyMay 12, 20152 votes

You could make a case for Singed not having it but even then it's kind of silly

I can't even understand why Shen wouldn't have it. Shen sucks in general. There are better tanks than him, there are better sustained fighters and the only time you think of Shen is global comps, which riot has repeatedly nerfed into the ground. Shen needs scaling MR but he also needs buffs to his damage, whether it be adding %HP damage somewhere, buffing his Qs damage or anything along those lines. But he needs more than just scaling MR.

Penta PenguinMay 12, 20151 votes

Why do you want Kalista buffs?

JasiwelMay 12, 20151 votes

Can we have decent MR value without needing stupid amounts of health? As much as I love dying to any number of AP champions that have no Magic Pen, something needs to be done about how worthless MR is without steroids or 3k health.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbMay 12, 20152 votes

They're supposed to be built together. Building HP and MR together causes a quadratic scale on your tankiness. The thing about burst mages is that once they're spent, they don't do damage. Most burst mages actually dps rather poorly, so to give the same MR stats as armor would be straight up retarded. I'd also point out that being on the other end of this, hitting a tank as a mage feels like a waste of time.

The Yetii RiderMay 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Can we have decent MR value without needing stupid amounts of health? As much as I love dying to any number of AP champions that have no Magic Pen, something needs to be done about how worthless MR is without steroids or 3k health.

If MR is good without needing lots of health, ADCs will buy it and abuse it. Burst counters Sustain, Tank counters Burst. You need to have health to make MR good, period.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbMay 12, 20151 votes

I would rather have some extra slow resist or tenacity on singed, but MR would help a lot of his worst matchups.

LaBlancaMay 12, 20151 votes

I think singed has enough but maybe shen could use it.

ElJanitorFrankMay 13, 20151 votes

Let's buff more tanks.

MTemptyMay 13, 20151 votes

Honestly, I think Riot made buffs in the wrong places. Don't get me wrong, the ult buff, snare addition to his W, and the %hp damage buff was cool and made me feel rewarded for making it to post 30-35 minutes. However, Singed still struggles to get through lane. Honestly can't manage against an experienced Vlad or Kennen without being like 20 cs down. I feel like anything to get Singed through lane without relying on enemy mistakes would be great. keep in mind Singed is pigeonholed into crystal flask due to his obscene mana costs. So 1-4 is an absolute nightmare if the enemy focuses on being aggressive and even with Tp, it takes a dorans ring+tear+mercs components to really feel like you have options to trade with any ap top laner.