Kalista should have 300 of base ms

DropFill·Feb 11, 2015·82 votes·4,130 views

Since she is the only champion in the game with infinite manaless dashes

87 Comments

OrangesilkFeb 12, 201531 votes

Silence used to be the best counterplay for champions who depend on their mobility to do stuff.

Silencing a Ezreal Lucian Zed Ahri mid-fight is one of the best feelings ever, you look at them scramble around, unsure of what to do and then get appropiately squished.

As weird as it may sound, Chogath used to be my way to deal with mobility creep "So you get infinite manaless dashes on my minion wave and can crit with your AA-like ability?, please allow me to shut you up and fuck you up". But now there's a champion who can both: Dash while silenced, and escape while slowed, this is the point where mobility creep has gone to the point where landing a 2.5 sec silence, a 1 second knockup and a 2 second slow is NOT ENOUGH.

TheI3igDaddyFeb 12, 20157 votes

Cho main here. I feel your pain..I feel it ;_;

JunkοFeb 12, 20151 votes

1 second knockup on Kalista should be enough with a good focus. The problem is landing it

OrangesilkFeb 12, 20153 votes

Her window of weakness after a dedicated CC tank lands all of his kit on her is effectively one second, DAMN, that's rough. MF's window of weakness is pretty much ALWAYS, she's ALWAYS at risk, and shooting from the exact range Kalista does.

JunkοFeb 12, 20151 votes

MF is an unviable ADC for like 2-3 seasons now. Compare Kalista to Lucian or Vayne and you get an ADC wth the same windows of weakness, except that Lucian and Vayne both don't have shitty laning phases and aren't team dependent, AND Vayne is even worse with self kitting and mobility and stealth.

revliledpembrokeFeb 13, 20151 votes

I regularly do very well with MF against all sorts of foes. The only adc I struggle with any more is Ashe.

OrangesilkFeb 13, 20151 votes

But they aren't even close, a silenced Lucian is going to have lots of problems escaping anyone, a slowed Vayne really finds it hard to effectively kite, but a silenced and slowed Kalista does not give a fuck. If I land my cc on a Lucian/Vayne, I'm almost guaranteedly giving my team 5 seconds to catch up, if I land my combo on a Kalista, they have one second to react or we're out of luck.

Besides, Vayne has a terrible laning phase, Kalista at least has some initiation power and her Q chunks for a lot of damage. The one and only thing Kalista lacks is lategame damage, but she more than makes up for it with lategame objective control and initiation power.

JunkοFeb 13, 20151 votes

a slowed Vayne really finds it hard to effectively kite

Thanks for the laugh xD

Oh and btw, Vayne has a better laning phase than Kalista.

OrangesilkFeb 13, 20151 votes

Which is probably why Kalista is looking at a 50% pick/ban rate in NA LCS, while Vayne is looking at 6.7%, because Kalista has a shitty laning phase, relies on her team and is worse at kiting than Vayne. Yes.

(Vayne has a whooping 0% pick/ban rate in EU LCS, it's probably because of her OVERWHELMING laning phase).

JunkοFeb 13, 20151 votes

Alistar and Zilean had 100% pick ban at LCS, Alistar evne had 80% winrate i think. Are they strong in solo queue? Hell no.

Kalista is picked because she rewards synergy and teamwork, which LCS teams of course have. For solo queue, Vayne is WAY better.

OrangesilkFeb 13, 20151 votes

Zilean and Alistar were insanely strong competitive picks (Zilean as a first pick basically auto-won you the champ select phase), and very relevant ranked 5v5 picks (same here), as a result they were nerfed, period. Riot does not balance around bronze solo-queue.

By the way, Vayne has a 47% winrate, she's not a consistent solo-queue ADC, she's just insanely strong when fed, so she's only good for climbing when you KNOW you're better than the people you're playing with.

Meanwhile Kalista has a 49% winrate, which is to be expected from a very strong high-skillcap champion, she's a better solo-queue champion, better competitive champion, and only slightly worse at carrying when insanely fed.

JunkοFeb 13, 20151 votes

Zed and Lee Sin both have constant 45% winrates yet are the current "OP" champions. Winrate doesn't mean shit. And NO, Kalista is in no way good in solo queue unless you duo or get lucky with your support

OrangesilkFeb 13, 20151 votes

Well they have 45% and 25% pick/ban rate in competitive scenarios, which means they are quite powerful when used by the right hands, and that's the reason the community hates them. You can't quite dismiss statistics as being useless, you have to understand that different numbers mean different things.

Think of it this way, a champions winrate determines how good it is for solo queue when used by players of varying skill. There are the pubstompers.

A champions relevance in competitive play determines how good it is when used by players who excel at them, when coordinated with their team, champions at their best potential.

Kallista is interestingly broken, in how, despite being an extremely powerful pick when used by the right hands (She's more important than Lee or Zed in competitive play, DAMN), she still manages to retain a decent winrate when used by players of varying skill in solo-queue, unlike several champions that are ONLY strong in the hands of players who excel at them (Zed, Lee, LeBlanc, Azir, Kassadin) and this is reflected by their winrates.

You can't just pretend the large amounts of data we have about the champions in various settings is completely irrelevant.

LordOfTheLeagueFeb 12, 20153 votes

As a nautilus player, I'm really happy to see a kalista : R => Q,W auto and she is probably dead by now.

OrangesilkFeb 12, 20151 votes

W does literally nothing since she's immune to slows, all her movement is via dashes, but yeah, after a stun, a root and a knockup your team better have caught her.

LordOfTheLeagueFeb 12, 20154 votes

W is an auto attack reset/buff to apply his passive (a root), it's not a slow. His slow is on his E.

OrangesilkFeb 13, 20151 votes

Woah, my bad, the more you know.

Leti the YetiFeb 13, 20151 votes

silence affects passives? shet, remind me to silence aatrox before I kill him ;l

OrangesilkFeb 13, 20152 votes

No, silence, doesn't affect passives, which is EXACTLY why Kalistas dash has even less counterplay than the rest of the champions suffering from mobility creep.

Arcade AndrewFeb 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Silence used to be the best counterplay for champions who depend on their mobility to do stuff.

Silencing a mid-fight is one of the best feelings ever, you look at them scramble around, unsure of what to do and then get appropiately squished.

As weird as it may sound, used to be my way to deal with mobility creep "So you get infinite manaless dashes on my minion wave and can crit with your AA-like ability?, please allow me to shut you up and fuck you up". But now there's a champion who can both: Dash while silenced, and escape while slowed, this is the point where mobility creep has gone to the point where landing a 2.5 sec silence, a 1 second knockup and a 2 second slow is NOT ENOUGH.

silences dont even matter anymore silences have been nerfed so hard

KingsgraveFeb 12, 201516 votes

3 things need to happen

1: Range reduced to 500 from 550 so she has to commit more and is less safe 2: Movement distance not going backward and going backward are averaged and turned into the default hop 3: Movement is always the same regardless of boots. With and without boots are averaged and turned into default after change 2

KeevalroyFeb 12, 201512 votes

2: Movement distance not going backward and going backward are averaged and turned into the default hop

Or have the scaling % damage on W (a scouting ability...) be her new passive, replacing that repulsive, obnoxious hop completely. A malevolent spirit of vengeance who fights by hopping around all over the place like a kangaroo on crack doesn't quite fit together well and is a match that should not exist in League.

JunkοFeb 12, 20151 votes

But if you remove her dashes, she is now a weaker version of Twitch that there is no reason you should pick. They need to limit her dashes to 1 per second and remove the back hoop increase

KeevalroyFeb 12, 20154 votes

I get what you're saying, but I disagree. She's similar to Twitch like Graves is similar to Lucian because they both have a dash with a cooldown that will decrease slightly per auto attack.

Comparing Twitch and Kalista:

Twitch Q - Stealth with attack speed steroid W - AoE slow with poison stacks E - Using up to 6 poison stacks to deal burst damage R - Long range teamfight spell with autos that pass through targets

Kalista Q - Long range projectile that generates a spear stack and can pass through units killed by it W - Patrolling scout ability (moving the %dmg to the passive slot) E - Allows for infinitely stacking spears to be ripped out for burst with a slow R - Teammate initiation knockup spell

They're similar, but I think they'd be different enough to get away with removing martial poise since the only thing that I really notice with them is the stacking E part. That said, Graves and Lucian are still different champions even though their E's are pretty much the same.

Edit: Structured the post better since it looked weird.

RisurinFeb 12, 201513 votes

damn, and here i though reddit was terrible at balanceing champion :)

Starcall CaseyFeb 12, 20157 votes

Most people on the boards have no idea how to balance a champion. They just throw out numbers to nerf that champ because they choose someone like Taric top and complain how they can't catch Kalista or 1v1 a VI. xD

RisurinFeb 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Most people on the boards have no idea how to balance a champion. They just throw out numbers to nerf that champ because they choose someone like Taric top and complain how they can't catch Kalista or 1v1 a VI. xD

somehow i feel thats how most 'QQ nerf pls post' are made. xD

GottaGoToSpaceFeb 12, 20159 votes

What they need to do is make her dashes scale off of movement speed instead of boot rank, because then slows will actually effect her.

Starcall CaseyFeb 12, 20151 votes

Slows effect her a ton actually. If only you actually played Kalista then you would know that slowing her actually reduces her attack animation speed by a ton which in turn makes her attack 3-4 times slower then she would normally.

AbiwonKenabiFeb 12, 20152 votes

Let me make a slight correction here: auto attack slows are how you get her. If she can't auto as much she can't hop as much. Things like Randuin's, Frozen Heart, Nasus Wither, Nunu's Ice Ball, etc.

I'm not saying this makes her Passive fair or unfair, just correcting this particular post.

Starcall CaseyFeb 13, 20151 votes

Even move speed slows like Olaf Q slows her attacks speed animation which in turn makes her attack speed lower.

Meep ManFeb 12, 20155 votes

Meet in the middle for 305-310 and I think its a deal.

AbiwonKenabiFeb 12, 20153 votes

I'd say maybe 320. 300 is just painfully slow. That's like having a self-imposed slow at all times.

325 is the same movement speed as Anivia Lulu Ashe Zyra Jinx Tristana Sona Caitlyn MissFortune KogMaw and several others. All of those champs have some sort of move speed buff, have insane amounts of slows/CC, have crazy range, or are named Nautilus.

Actually, looking at it now, Kalista already has 325 movespeed. Has anyone played Jinx? She is soooo slow without boots. Walking around SR takes forever, especially since Kalista has nothing to auto on the way to lane. I don't know, anything lower is just painful. I'm not saying Kalista shouldn't be changed, I just don't know if this is the correct nerf for her.

Maybe a better change would be that slows affect her leap range, so that more champions have a means to deal with her.

Jungle Lux GodFeb 12, 20155 votes

Kalista having 300 base MS would really not make too much of a difference because her in-fight mobility would still be identical because all of her in-fight mobility comes from her ability to hop around repeatedly, and she still has enough range to abuse the passive.

A better way to nerf Kalista would be to reduce her range to a range where she can actually be caught.

Popstar AhriFeb 12, 20152 votes

I agree, and this will be the first ever history of having a champ with 300 movement speed, I think... not sure I havent played this game long enough

DeadXeraFeb 12, 20152 votes

I thought Nautilus had 300 MS? At least I know he used to... I don't recall if they bumped him up or not.

Silents429Feb 12, 20152 votes

I think that is unreasonable. Slower then Nautilus? The big ass titan in a sub suit?

Acidic PuddleFeb 12, 20152 votes

300 is too slow, 320 minimum.

FattyPainBringerFeb 12, 20152 votes

you realize that the only way she gets the dash is to be within her basic attack range for her to shoot you to trigger the effect. you stay out of that and she cant hop

Starcall CaseyFeb 12, 20151 votes

I feel all adc's along with Kalista should have their move speed increased. You can't even teamfight in higher elo and survive as adc anymore with all the high mobility heavy hitting champs coming into the meta. Enemy team has a VI? gg wp adc now useless. I could go on but i think you all get my point, if you're having trouble catching adc's, maybe you should think about that your champ pick was bad instead of how OP mobility is on adc's.

WolfeurFeb 12, 20152 votes

ADC's are amongst the slowest champions in the game, you know.

Lucian's the fastest with 335 (Oh wait, Urgot's here too!). Draven, Graves, Twitch, Varus and Vayne have 330. All the others (including Kalista) have 325, the lowest movement speed in the game.

RikariFeb 12, 20151 votes

Kalista's kit is something else right now. In my opinion shes like Vayne ,only bad in the early game,and they both kite forever late game. Kalista however completely prevents any melee champion from catching her,but in my opinion so does vayne. To compensate for this mobility,she has to rely on her soul bound for all of her damage. She doesn't have the same weaknesses as other mobile adcs like Lucian Graves Ezreal who get cd drops on their dash,but when you look at their kits she can't blow you up in two seconds. She is however immune to a lot of skillshots late game. You could always counterpick her with single target CC Pantheon Ryze Tryndamere Nasus Anivia Malzahar Maokai Morgana Nautilus Nocturne Rammus Renekton Skarner TwistedFate Lissandra Udyr Warwick XinZhao or just Cassiopeia . She excels against melee champs without dashes and some mages,but she gets blown up by adcs and assassin/mages like Lucian Corki Graves Leblanc Akali Zed EDIT: Wait nvm ignore them melee champs

ZadicFeb 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You could always counterpick her with single target CC or just . She excels against melee champs without dashes and some mages,but she gets blown up by adcs and assassin/mages like

anivia doesnt have single target cc she just kites nasus and tryn regardless of slow udyr, skarner, and rene(?) shouldnt get near her without flash or and arguably a flank she'll just dash out of noc and morg before the fear/stun is proc i think its possible to out run rammus with enough attackspeed and mechanics while only attacking him (dont forget about her slow) idk about xin, i feel like kali will get out before the knock up you should add liss to the list

AbiwonKenabiFeb 12, 20151 votes

I'm gonna have to say no to your comment on Rammus. A Rammus barreling in from river or from lane to gank bot lane has a decent chance to nail that Kalista. Very few champions can outpace him, and early game Kalista isn't going to have the attack speed needed to get away from 500 ms Rammus (assuming he has like ghost and Mobi boots + powerball). I'm not sure how exactly powerful Kalista's slow is, but she also has to auto at least once before slowing, and by then a Rammus should be on top of her.

I'm not saying its impossible to get away from Rammus as Kalista, just difficult enough to be significant.

OrbvFeb 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}She is however immune to a lot of skillshots late game. You could always counterpick her with single target CC or just . She excels against melee champs without dashes and some mages,but she gets blown up by adcs and assassin/mages like

All ADC get blown up by assassins and mages, because they only build damage, that's nothing new. To go off of what Monky said, here are some more corrections:

Ryze's Rune prison has less range than Kalista's AA range Cassiopeia does not have single target CC either

You should have listed Leona Taric Annie Karma , supports who actually counter her.

RikariFeb 12, 20151 votes

she can juke leona hard and escape karmas root,and tibbers is a skillshot sorta. I feel like Taric is a bit too much for Kalista. Blitz works though,if he waits for her windup or movement he can bring her in and knock her up.

OrbvFeb 12, 20152 votes

True for Leona, I witnessed a Kalista dodge and ult and sword of daybreak aim on opposite sides, it was embarrassing and frustrating. But personally I've never had an issue with Karma's Root. It is targeted, and Karma has a movespeed buff in her shield so she should be able to keep up for the duration until the root lands unless Kalista goes AA - Q - AA - E - AA, which isn't impossible but relies on timing.

The one thing that drives me up the wall about most Annie players is that most forget that you can apply a stun with ANY damaging ability post 6. I have watched...many...players attempt to flash Ult a single champion only to have them escape. If they used incinerate, it would either hit, or nothing would be wasted. I get that it's not instantaneous, but a definite stun is a definite stun.

junglerboy16Feb 12, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Kalista's kit is something else right now. In my opinion shes like ,only bad in the early game,and they both kite forever late game. Kalista however completely prevents any melee champion from catching her,but in my opinion so does vayne. To compensate for this mobility,she has to rely on her soul bound for all of her damage. She doesn't have the same weaknesses as other mobile adcs like who get cd drops on their dash,but when you look at their kits she can't blow you up in two seconds. She is however immune to a lot of skillshots late game. You could always counterpick her with single target CC or just . She excels against melee champs without dashes and some mages,but she gets blown up by adcs and assassin/mages like EDIT: Wait nvm ignore them melee champs

Wait, did you just say she needs her soul bound for damage? She may need them for burst from her passive, but when she is kiting, Rend turns into a 800+ damage nuke.

DropFillFeb 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Kalista's kit is something else right now. In my opinion shes like ,only bad in the early game,and they both kite forever late game. Kalista however completely prevents any melee champion from catching her,but in my opinion so does vayne. To compensate for this mobility,she has to rely on her soul bound for all of her damage. She doesn't have the same weaknesses as other mobile adcs like who get cd drops on their dash,but when you look at their kits she can't blow you up in two seconds. She is however immune to a lot of skillshots late game. You could always counterpick her with single target CC or just . She excels against melee champs without dashes and some mages,but she gets blown up by adcs and assassin/mages like EDIT: Wait nvm ignore them melee champs