Please undo requiring smite to buy hunters machete.

disregardable·Dec 27, 2014·2 votes·1,720 views

Forgetting smite is already punishing enough. The team would genuinely be better off with a duo top than a smiteless jungler. Isn't that a bit wrong?

9 Comments

Renkai NoctisDec 27, 20144 votes

You have a full minute, before you can place on your requirements. AND you can also change your masteries along with runes. I fail to see how wrong can that be. Tis like saying I bought a dorans blade when im jungle and I already walked out of base. My fault for forgetting, even though I've done it 100 of times.

LordEndariusDec 27, 20142 votes

{quoted}

You have a full minute, before you can place on your requirements. AND you can also change your masteries along with runes. I fail to see how wrong can that be. Tis like saying I bought a dorans blade when im jungle and I already walked out of base. My fault for forgetting, even though I've done it 100 of times.

Nnnnnnnnoo, going to have to disagree with you there.

Smiteless jungle should be a thing, just like AP Rek'Sai, AP Miss Fortune, Urgot, and all the other off builds. And on a side note, jungle items are a really good way for a behind team to have their ADC catch up, or even have their other lanes take jungles if the jungler disconnects. Green jungle enchant is one of a very small number of sources of tenacity. Jax in the top lane might decide that the Devourer enchant is delicious for him. Because it is. Admittedly, quite a bit of the gold value comes from the modifications to smite, but if items were bought solely on using every part of the item, Rek'Sai wouldn't build anything with Spellblade despite the fact that Spellblade items are REALLY GOOD on Rek'Sai.

That said, Devouring is really the only enchant that I think is good enough to take without smite. Just my opinion. There's other ways to get tenacity.

Renkai NoctisDec 27, 20143 votes

So, you're saying. That without smite, without these "limits" that are preventing us from whatever the meta is. We should be able to play what we want? You already can. Now, is it effective? Not really. Tell me if you've seen a Quinn jungle or Twitch. I am pretty sure, people will counter jungle the crap out of them because, they're early isn't as viable. People try all sorts of crazy things but, why does it work? "low elo". AD Katarina, and along with all of those. Want to have fun? go ahead. But, if you're staring at a gray screen longer than 5 minutes I recommend you change your strategy and go by the obvious choice. There is a reason why these champions are played in Lane, not jungle. Garen/Jayce/Diana- seen all crazy things. But, in the end of the day it all comes down to developers choice and how they drive the players way from their doom than INTO it. Hope I made my opinion clear, enjoy your day summoner.

LordEndariusDec 27, 20141 votes

{quoted}

So, you're saying. That without smite, without these "limits" that are preventing us from whatever the meta is. We should be able to play what we want? You already can. Now, is it effective? Not really. Tell me if you've seen a Quinn jungle or Twitch. I am pretty sure, people will counter jungle the crap out of them because, they're early isn't as viable. People try all sorts of crazy things but, why does it work? "low elo". AD Katarina, and along with all of those. Want to have fun? go ahead. But, if you're staring at a gray screen longer than 5 minutes I recommend you change your strategy and go by the obvious choice. There is a reason why these champions are played in Lane, not jungle. Garen/Jayce/Diana- seen all crazy things. But, in the end of the day it all comes down to developers choice and how they drive the players way from their doom than INTO it. Hope I made my opinion clear, enjoy your day summoner.

Yes, I understand your opinion. Optimal things are played because they are, obviously, optimal. The best? Perhaps not, but doing the best with what you have.

The problem is we shouldn't be disagreeing here (as far as I can tell). I don't recall saying jungle with twitch or quinn, but I can find videos of diamond level players doing pretty well with them if you really want. I'm not saying jungle Jax, even. I'm saying that top jax should have the option of building a jungle item if the jungler disconnects and he needs something to do while he waits for the lane to push. Same with twitch or quinn if you want.

What I'm trying to get across is that they're limiting perfectly valid options for very little reason. No, the jungle items aren't optimal on someone without smite. But the gold gain and damage increase of Devourer enchants should at least be considered, especially for AA based champs, and the ones who push really hard.

And thanks, I'm enjoying my day quite well. I hope you are too.

DeadXeraDec 27, 20145 votes

{quoted}

Nnnnnnnnoo, going to have to disagree with you there.

Smiteless jungle should be a thing

Why should gimping your team 'be a thing'?

Without smite you: -Hurt your clear speed/sustain -Remove more than half of your buffs from the jungle (Krug/Rocs/Gromp/Wolves) -Remove most ability to secure buffs/neutral objectives, and increase the time it takes for your team to take said objectives, giving more time for the enemy to respond. -Practically guarantee that your team has an underleveled, underfarmed, underfed "jungler" -Lose your teams lanes because their jungler gets to be higher leveled than you, and therefore ganks more effectively.

All for... what, exactly? an offensive spell, that you'll rarely get to effectively use, because the moment you show up anywhere on the field of battle you get 2shot? Gee, I'd love to see you on the enemy team so you can be a walking low-damage ignite + free gold.

Now that might come across as a little harsh, but quite frankly, I remember previous seasons, and the number of "smiteless junglers" that existed, and how without fail, every time, they did as I explained above. I think out of the 50 or so I've seen, only two did an okay job, and that was because they played Cho'gath or Nunu, and even then they showed mediocre presence compared to if they'd had faster clears with smite. I'm not trying to beat you up for your idea, but believe me when I say, we're better off with how the system is right now.

LordEndariusDec 27, 20141 votes

{quoted}

All for... what, exactly? an offensive spell, that you'll rarely get to effectively use

OH CHRIST NO, Offensive spells would be a terrible idea. I'm thinking teleport. If you really want to take exhaust and annoy the enemy jungler, go for it.

Soliloquy time, apologies.

I've always been of the opinion that people should buy what they want for their character without being limited by the devs, even if it's not 100% optimal. I understand in the case of limiting gold generation items, seeing as stacking those would allow some sort of strange double carry bot lane where all they do is get four out of every ten minions and have triple the gold of the enemy team.

But I don't see the point on limiting items because they're sub optimal. Example: Hydra. I think this should be buildable on ranged characters because even without the cleave passive, I think it's a pretty decent bundle of stats. The active is a nice burst of damage for people who get too close, and the regen really helps siege. Good for lifesteal tanking when you already have a bork and a bloodthirster.

This being said, as much as I appreciate the quote and your attempt to refute my argument, I find it necessary to point out that my argument had a second issue that took up most of the meat of my post: non junglers taking jungle items.

One of my favorite old videos is Froggen making 300 cs in 20 minutes as Karthus. His jungler disconnected early, and Froggen decided to take over wraiths, wolves, and blue buff. Shove wave, take camp, blah blah blah. He could only do this and still have mana because he bought a Spirit Stone (boy did that date this post horribly), which gave him the damage and regen to take the camps and stay in lane.

Obviously that won't work nowadays, but the point still stands: What if the jungler disconnects and the camps are suddenly free? What if the game is destined to be a farmfest and siegefest that lasts an hour, and the AA based champs need something that will keep scaling, or if they decide that mixed damage is a good idea? What if tenacity boots or zephyr aren't optimal for the tank?

On a side note (a phrase I seem to use a lot), am I the only one it bothers that the Devs are limiting our options for us? Just because we can't use every part of an item doesn't mean it should be off limits. Prime example: Liandry's Torment on Katarina. She has no slows, indeed no CC at all except death, and yet I have never seen a Katarina without this item. Garen building Trinity Force despite being manaless, AP Tryndamere's very EXISTANCE should raise some eyebrows because his AP scaling is worse than his AD scaling.

I'm not saying that Sona should build a jungle item. I'm not saying Darius should buy a Runaan's hurricane. I'm saying that the options to make bad decisions should be there too. Because some of the bad decisions aren't all that bad. Some aren't bad at all, actually.

SecretAgentHulkDec 27, 20141 votes

The problem is that items built out of Machete are OP. They are OP as hell, and that's to compensate the jungler for his OP jungle (which is itself OP to make junglers choose a bit more between sustain and ganks). If they were opened up to anyone, they'd have to be nerfed. The jungle would then have to be nerfed, and then we're right back where we left off at the end of season 4, with only AD/assassins being viable junglers.