Fighters have strayed too far from their original designs

Moody P··40 votes·13,449 views

Back then: fighters mostly had any combo of item 3078 item 3153 item 3071 item 3142 and then they would go full tank. Anything more than 2 damage items was considered risky/cheesy and the "full AD" builds got pretty famous for making good clickbait videos; they were also very squishy going that. Fighters primarily did a lot of damage through surviving long enough to deal it. This design made a lot more room for pretty much every fighter to be at least pickable even if they weren't in a favorable meta, unless they were just weak champions (pre-rework Fiora for example). Fighters relied mostly on base damages and attack speed. Tank items did not suck so this was a good decision. Fighters had limited mobility. Fighters did not generally have high defense-piercing but could beat tanks through attrition with equally high defense.

Now: Items like item 3053 item 3748 item 3026 item 3812 item 3508 encourage fighters to just keep buying AD; full AD is no longer risky; because of this, early-game divers are currently dominating, because they no longer have to "fall off" by buying tank items and will now remain relevant for most of the game. Damage is more front-loaded than ever and most fighters have "full AD" being very close to their core because full AD is now shored up by having lots of HP. Fighters now rely on very high AD scaling and combos and mobile fighters can sometimes have the same kill speed as a dedicated assassin with almost none of the weaknesses that come with being a squishy Zed. Tank items suck, and even if they were good there's likely no way fighters would change back to that way of playing when this current build is so effective. Many fighters are now very mobile, generally with a negligible penalty for their mobility. Fighters that can't adapt to the new builds find themselves ranging from mediocre to underpowered, either shifting away from being fighters or just being bad champions in general. Fighters are now expected to have high defense pierce, and with tanks now being designed around this premise, any fighter who doesn't will "enjoy" getting their shit pushed in by Ornn all game. Ironically, fighters now scale worse than they did before; but the current game state exists in such a way that you basically will never see the game last long enough for the dominant fighters to get out-scaled.

I would like at least a partial return to the former, or at least making it a viable option again. Currently this situation has been very detrimental to juggernauts who, with exceptions for Illaoi and Aatrox, rely very much on having high defenses through items and winning fights through bulk and sustain. Or at least, that's how they're supposed to; right now it's just better to keep squeezing as much damage into your build as you reasonably can, because you're actually losing out greatly by buying any raw tank items.

49 Comments

D357R0Y3R30 votes

buff tank items (literally of them except adaptive helm)

revert GA

make sterak gives armor instead of AD

make black cleaver armor pen instead of armor shred while buffing the amount back to 30%

and I WILL main Darius once again

Moody P16 votes

make sterak gives armor instead of AD

decent idea actually, I like it

Fire Blaustoise2 votes

revert GA

Worse idea. i dont wanna being back to league of GA where tanks get a second life, where adc where too tanky (granted it was along their f*cking bps due to old crit).

Old GA 2400 gold 60 armor 45 magic resist

[sg-zephyr]

and I WILL main Darius once again

he's not in his worse state IMO (will change if they nerf conqu tho).

D357R0Y3R5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fire Blaustoise,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hkxRrYky,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2019-01-07T22:23:58.180+0000)

he's not in his worse state IMO (will change if they nerf conqu tho).

he's complete garbage above a certain elo, because Riot pigeon-holed him into killing tanks instead of hard countering melee champions who have no mobility, and tanks are shit

HopeStartsWithU2 votes

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/darius/top isn't almost a 50% winrate in plat+ good? Or doesn't that apply here because he is a braindead bruiser who deserves a higher winrate because he is so simple?

Eons32 votes

{quoted}

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/darius/top isn't almost a 50% winrate in plat+ good? Or doesn't that apply here because he is a braindead bruiser who deserves a higher winrate because he is so simple?

He is a champion that has a fringe use since galio is currently meta and dominating(but is a tankish thing) I Honestly think itemization for bruisers, adcs, and assasins are way to close together. Lethality was an Attempt, but its just horrible, what assasins need is LARGE ad numbers like 120 or 150 What bruisers need is Health plus mobility, their damage items could literally be yomuus if they didnt get kited immediatly after engaging forcing them to need to insta gib. What tanks need are passive that allow them to mitigate damage for themselves and allies. Knights vow, Redemption, Locket, so on. Bruisers should be balanced around health armor health mr, health move speed items. Tanks around Support team style items(aoe dodge item like shens w?, Change Ga to drop a windwall style ability while the tank is rezing(useless in 1v1 amazing in teamfights) Assasins need HIGHER COOLDOWN ABILITIES THAT ARE STRONGER. Zeds W of 24 base cd, needs to stay 24 cd, his q needs a 20 second cd his e a 20 second cd, but higher range on w, higher damage and scaling on q higher damage and scaling on E, Assasins need to throw their kit, and if they miss they are punished HARD if they dont they instagib. In teamfights this means the assasin NEEDS to land his kit effectively, in lane this means he cant focus on harrass becuase he will lose farm. Currently the over lap with Melee adcs, assasins, and bruisers is hurting the balance of the game because kits like Master Yi and tryndamere are so toxic they ruin the items zed and darius are supposed to get.

HopeStartsWithU1 votes

I really don't know if you are sarcastic, trolling or actually serious. If serious, I feel sorry for you. If not, u got me gud.

SithesisLord3 votes

Worse idea. i dont wanna being back to league of GA where tanks get a second life, where adc where too tanky (granted it was along their f*cking bps due to old crit).

Now AD Fighters, Skirmishers and Assassins get a second life and more damage. And AP champions, as well as tanks get cucked out of an option for survivability.

Old GA was by several degrees healthier and better than current GA.

Fire Blaustoise3 votes

Even then Skirmisher & Fighters builded it. The new ones have a "bad" build path, You can't resume it to second life + damage = OP. Old one was cheaper and gave you more tankiness. When you build GA in first place, damages isnt your main goal. For 2400g double resist (high armor and mr).

And AP champions, as well as tanks get cucked out of an option for survivability.

They have enough survivability.

Assassins dont build GA.

Old GA was by several degrees healthier and better than current GA.

At 2400 gold, hell no it wasnt.

SaltyCauseBad3 votes

I hard otp Darius on 3 accounts. Two accounts on Diamond 4 and one on Diamond 3. im currently levelling this account.

The difference in playing Darius on this account and on the diamond accounts is insane. Hes so bad at Diamond unless your team can CC the enemy for you or you can hard tank for your ADC

Fire Blaustoise1 votes

The difference in playing Darius on this account and on the diamond accounts is insane. Hes so bad at Diamond unless your team can CC the enemy for you or you can hard tank for your ADC

But its more due to his kit... But now you mention his state, afterthought, i dont even have issue against Darius even when playing Wukong.

Darius is okay during laning phase (ofc it depend of matchup, but Aatrox will be nerf). And after laning... his kit will always be an issue.

You know Darius better than me.

Saevum1 votes

What aboutitem 3508 ?

D357R0Y3R2 votes

that item is doomed, Riot will never revert it

look at the plans they have for that item in 9.1 absolutely insane

Saevum2 votes

If you mean no change. it's true.

Butterwood10 votes

Agreed. The game was so much more fun when you actually had to integrate strategy into your build and it wasn't just a race to get the most damage.

Hayaishi26 votes

Thanks Riot for having every class scale to late game.

Moody P4 votes

fighters scaled better back then than they do now (at least the ones that were supposed to scale), but now it's shifted to scaling fighters now powerspike at 1 item and get bullshit by their 2nd (jax, fiora, riven, etc)

and then also the early game powerhouse champions just don't fall off anymore. xin, renekton, etc are basically always relevant now, when before they would be absolutely gods for the first 15 minutes or so and then taper off in usefulness because they were forced to go tank and give up on scaling their damage

D357R0Y3R1 votes

most fighters scaled like shit

the only one who used to scale were olaf and warwick

olaf no longer scales well ever since his W gives attack speed instead of transforming hp into AD

Moody P4 votes

well, either way, a lot of champs would still probably end up scaling better now off of the old builds if they were good enough; juggernaut champions come to mind, so obviously I'm a bit biased in my thought processes

i always thought mundo and hecarim used to scale decently into late game back then, though.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

Hecarim ye mundo hell no, mundo e didnt even give mr or transformed hp into dmg

PB4UAME1 votes

You are wrong about the second portion as literally every incarnation of Mundo's E has given increased AD based on health. Either his missing HP as it originally was, or %HP damage as well as additional AD for missing hp, as it currently is.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

never said that, I said his E used to not convert his max hp into damage

he always had bonus AD from E, but that alone did not make him scale well

Hayaishi21 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hkxRrYky,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-01-07T19:48:38.200+0000)

fighters scaled better back then than they do now (at least the ones that were supposed to scale), but now it's shifted to scaling fighters now powerspike at 1 item and get bullshit by their 2nd (jax, fiora, riven, etc)

and then also the early game powerhouse champions just don't fall off anymore. xin, renekton, etc are basically always relevant now, when before they would be absolutely gods for the first 15 minutes or so and then taper off in usefulness because they were forced to go tank and give up on scaling their damage

So annoying when you have to actually hope Renekton doesn't have flash up late game because he one shots you if he does.

Moody P8 votes

i just want this item item 3508 gone and i'd be totally fine with Renekton being semi-decent later into the game, but that item making Renekton and Jax just permanently shitting out damage and CC is too much for me to handle

SunDragonz3 votes

Just don't let them autoattack you 4head /s

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

As if Riot didnt make this change because people complained about falling off or being feast or famine or taking a long time to scale.

Moody P3 votes

that's just because old fighters don't do much besides their dmg, as a class fighters feel more feast/famine than before

new fighters are less feast/famine because they actually have utility and in-kit safety measures, not because they can buy a shit load of AD now

chipndip14 votes

Fighters had a hard time in this game until recently. If you're just going to make them off-brand tanks, then just pick a real tank. You don't need a Lee Sin, a Darius, or a Camille to tank. You use divers for back line access and elongated back line disruption, and juggernauts for persisting high damage threat.

However, fighters were, up till recently, glorified split pushers at best. They'd start decent early on, then fall off hard, then split push because they didn't do much else of value or just int your game. That or they were just comfy enough as off-brand tanks to function, like Rek'Sai before all the changes, Dr. Mundo, Trundle, and J4.

So the issue was to create a space where fighters could do more than split push after the 15 - 20 minute mark while making that thing they do be anything else besides "off-brand tank". Now that at least some fighters can team fight better through kit and itemization introductions, saying "Hey, these few fighters are way better than the others, so let's all revert backwards", is extremely regressive.

We have fighter picks that build mostly defensive already. Maybe the meta doesn't favor them at this time, but if someone like Olaf is going to be strong in the game, he's gonna go Cinderhulk and a bunch of tank items. If someone like Mundo is strong, he's gonna go full tank. If J4's strong, he'll go AD or tank depending on what's up. Not every fighter has to follow the "1 damage item + 5 tank items" rule.

Moody P3 votes

buying tank items isn't for the sake of tanking, never has been, and post-item changes/game shifts juggernauts have never had a harder time justifying being picked short of the outright busted ones Urgot (who is ironically a replacement tank just like you described) and Aatrox who is in the same situation as divers.

almost every diver that's mattered in any recent time is just a better assassin, full stop; giving you the same burst and kill pressure with more reliability, same target access, fewer delays, better utility, and with innate tankiness to boot. most divers are "good" at teamfights because now they can just murder at least, usually multiple squishies before they even have a chance to play the game. is that really better? I wouldn't say so. ironically champions like irelia now offer you less counterplay than before because one slip-up leads to her immediately killing you with her full rotation when her kit in a vacuum hints towards a DPS role; whereas while the old build had no mechanical counterplay, you generally had time to react and respond to her as a threat.

some* fighters were splitpushers because they were early game focused. but champions like Warwick, Olaf, Hecarim, J4 were always teamfight menaces. divers being solid teamfighters is not a new or sudden occurrence that Camille magically solved; it's already been done, and not every fighter should be like this. Champions like Pantheon and Renekton who have absurdly oppressive lanes shouldn't be good in teamfights.

chipndip12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hkxRrYky,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-01-07T23:54:52.096+0000)

buying tank items isn't for the sake of tanking, never has been, and post-item changes/game shifts juggernauts have never had a harder time justifying being picked short of the outright busted ones Urgot (who is ironically a replacement tank just like you described) and Aatrox who is in the same situation as divers.

Let's be fair to Urgot, here: Urgot IS a decently sized damage threat with his passive. Yes, he's used to aoe fear, but he's not necessarily used for a "massive cc chain" more than he's used to turn 1 execute into a slaughter house.

Aatrox isn't even meant to be a strong team fighter unless he snowballs into it, but he does avoid being as binary as a Wu Kong or Pantheon in his game play.

almost every diver that's mattered in any recent time is just a better assassin, full stop; giving you the same burst and kill pressure with more reliability, same target access, fewer delays, better utility, and with innate tankiness to boot.

I mean, think on it.

Divers excel at what? Back line access and disruption.

Assassins excel at what? Pretty much the same thing.

The main difference is that divers can take more punishment and assassins tend to have escape options to quickly flee the situation after getting the job done. Really...if we're being honest, there's a good deal of overlap between the two. Riot's been tinkering on how to reduce that overlap, but it seems the forums just want more Wu Kong and LeBlanc and less "anything that isn't this fucking toxic".

some* fighters were splitpushers because they were early game focused. but champions like Warwick, Olaf, Hecarim, J4 were always teamfight menaces. divers being solid teamfighters is not a new or sudden occurrence that Camille magically solved; it's already been done, and not every fighter should be like this. Champions like Pantheon and Renekton who have absurdly oppressive lanes shouldn't be good in teamfights.

The thing Camille and Irelia solved was "Being a fighter that's good in team fights without having to be full tank to do it". Picks like J4, Hecarim, and Olaf are pretty much either full tank or dang near close in all their relevant builds. Cam and Irelia are fighters we finally have that don't horrendously fall off and don't require being full tank to operate in a team fight.

Moody P2 votes

Really...if we're being honest, there's a good deal of overlap between the two.

The difference in the past was that divers weren't (usually) smacking you with the delete button unless they were supremely fed or going very off-build. Currently most divers are very burst-combo oriented and even DPS-y designs like Xin Zhao got reworked to more bursty, while still providing everything a diver does; assassins are, more or less, now obsolete unless they're overtuned like LB and Kha are right now.

Let's be fair to Urgot, here: Urgot IS a decently sized damage threat with his passive. Yes, he's used to aoe fear, but he's not necessarily used for a "massive cc chain" more than he's used to turn 1 execute into a slaughter house.

Well, there's a couple of tanks who aren't used for massive CC chains that still manage to be high priority in comp when good; namely Shen and Galio, who have unimpressive stun-chaining but make up for it in other means. Urgot is a bit like that; his ability to disrupt a teamfight with that massive AOE range on his fear is game-changing, as well as his generous safety in lane for how well he scales relative to other juggernauts. Nunu is apparently becoming a power pick now, too, but I couldn't explain that.

The thing Camille and Irelia solved was "Being a fighter that's good in team fights without having to be full tank to do it". Picks like J4, Hecarim, and Olaf are pretty much either full tank or dang near close in all their relevant builds. Cam and Irelia are fighters we finally have that don't horrendously fall off and don't require being full tank to operate in a team fight.

Valid point. Then, you should at least be OK with me saying both options should be equally decent. Currently Hecarim gets by on running more damage than usual, as well as adding Predator to his damage rotation and becoming disgustingly bursty on one button. A lot of the "full tank" fighters and juggernauts struggle quite a bit because of how tank items have been handled in recent years, though Olaf at least sees decent success relative to his low pick rate in very high elos. And if that's the case, that Camille/Irelia shouldn't be made to go full tank, perhaps they shouldn't be as durable as a juggernaut either.

Abibyama II1 votes

Nunu is apparently becoming a power pick now, too, but I couldn't explain that

My guess would be that people stopped building him AP and realized that he's a better Sejuani minus the long range engage.

The Highest Noon4 votes

Just a reminder that Diana is a Fighter and has been one shotting everything since Season 3 :')

Śhunpo3 votes

Fighters? More like stickier assassins lmao.

Ragnaveil2 votes

Very true on the Aatrox part. His sustain is nowhere near his old sustain, which means he needs to rely on defensive stats more, but sadly how the kit is designed, he can't do so without losing a fuckton of damage for it (I blame the amount of AD steroids the kit has (E and R)). Just the fact his first two q's do little damage when you dont hit the edge just hurts when people stand on top of you and blast you to hell, you'd have to rapidly blow through them to get your 3rd, but by the time that comes around, you'd probably be dead in every situation where you fail to get half your health back from ult.

AjXtar2 votes

how the fuck people are crying about bruisers while mages are fucking left untouched?

Like what is wrong with you people. Mages are building luden's which is pretty much mages trinity and they have so many great items that gives them everything they want. HP, cdr, magic pen, % damage. All the mages are building almost the HP that fighters are building(not as much as darius, urgot), but seriously.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_champions/Health all champions have similar HP, so don't start crying that "mages how low HP".

The double magic pen gives them so much power early and scales so well into the late game because carry champions are not building resistances, but only fighters are a problem.

Boards are biased as fuck. No wonder mid lane is the most popular role when the skill there is low as fuck and they are crying only about every other role and not theirs.

Moody P6 votes

because i'm a fighter main and i don't care about mages?

how the fuck people are crying

super ironic that you'd come into a criticism thread to cry about a completely unrelated topic, isn't it

AjXtar3 votes

You a fighter main? Hahaha. You played few games with urgot and darius and now you call yourself a fighter main. hahaha. Dude, please.

You have no idea what fighters are building. ZERO fighters are building botrk. Literally no fighter builds that item. You also said that fighters are building full tank after one AD item or two. Like seriously? Only some juggernauts like Darius and Urgot does that, all of the the others are building some hp(mostly 700hp from trinity and sterak's or black cleaver and hydra) and the rest is full AD.

And btw. You never said anything about the cost of those items, you just bitched about them and you ignored the part where their power comes with a price, but hey. You are a fighter main and you sure know what you are talking about. Right? Don't make me laugh, bronzie. You have no idea what you are talking about, especially when you are playing 2 of the most braindead champions in the game.

Moody P5 votes

You can't even read, stop trying

Ðusk1 votes

I like how he's calling you braindead. The man hasn't even read the damn post lmao

DragonShea2 votes

Well said. The problem lies in the fact that Divers (Fighters are divers and Juggernauts) are just assassins now instead of being semi-sustained damage dealing champions that can influence a teamfight in various ways. Divers are being pushed towards being more damage focused is because armor items have become horrible and that forces them to double down on damage, The reason why they don't want raw defensive stats is because of the same reason why tanks are unviable.

No-one wants to get hit because damage is too much.

In the past, divers had to get at least 2 armor items to survive because anymore would mean they die too fast and getting 4 are going nearly full tank was gonna make them useless in a fight. That is the problem, if defensive options in the game isn't made viable or improved then Divers will continue to be super assassins. Fixing their scaling so they get punished for not getting the right amount of tank or damage items would be key in curbing their dominance in the game.

And speaking of champs not wanting to take hits, tanks and Juggs are design to take damage from because they are either supposed to, or lack the mobility to dodge skillshots, being a bulky champ that can't take hits and dies quickly makes those champs useless.

ScruBard2 votes

Put simply, League has way too much dmg.

FixHealsRemoveGW2 votes

Actually it's an issue of too many good core items. You get item 3748 because you need pushing power anyway and if you use item 3078 you probably get item 3053 too because it's obvious. Then you only have to 2 slots left and the enemy carries might already have penetration so no point in building armor that late. Since you can't really shine with survivability in team fights you might as well get item 3026. xD

You could build tanky earlier but then you just lose to better items, cleaver and conqueror and the steraks shield that gives way better dueling power.

Fighters are forced to go for the tons of damage duelist build with some temporary defense, also because builds that are focused around defense and lifesteal/spellvamp just get shutdown hard by GW and % Pen.

PaffWasTaken1 votes

AD + Health and/or Armor items shouldn't exist in the game, or at least they should be way more niche than they presently are. I still believe that fighters should have their dedicated item pool, since if they use tank items and carry items at the same time like before, it makes balancing really hard because of how a same items have direct impact to multiple different types of champions. At the same time, those dedicated items shouldn't be the raw stat piles they are now.

Spacesuit Spiff1 votes

Accurate. As well, teamfights are so fast now that unless your damage comes out immediately, you might not even have time to use it. Darius full combo (EaWaQaR) for example, even at the fringes that's enough time to get shredded by AoE even if fed. And if you don't get shredded by the time that's finished, odds are someone zoomed past and oneshot enough of your team that you still lose the fight.

GigglesO1 votes

According to damage mains "Tank items are too safe"

So now instead tank items are the risky choice.

Poske1 votes

Only overloaded champions full of options like Irelia use builds like that Or if you will hybrids of Bruiser/assassins like Riven, Irelia etc

Typical 1 dimensional bruiser still does the tank build. But none plays them because they are just not that viable.

Yaskamasandwich1 votes

Well said, I remember the time in season 4 where this was how fighters (divers, juggernauts, etc.) had to build. In season 2 it was ironically worse for item selection but godly late game, go meta golem or go home. In season 4 I sometimes bought BotRK and LW as a fighter if there were a lot of tanks. Sure I wouldn't be able to kill the Marksmen easily but taking out their front line faster sure achieved victory easily. Had to keep 3 defense items though, usually 1 armor, 1 hp, and 1 MR.

A lot more classes used to scale godly late game, Malphite, Maokai, Sejuani as late game tanks. Nasus, Jax, Olaf as late game fighters. Hecarim, J4, Shyvana as divers. Now out of that list only Jax scales late game, and that's because he's an AA AS Marksmen damage reliant champion with Juggernaut style damage and defense, Diving capabilities, and Assassin burst potential. I am not sure he really scales hard anymore since despite his defenses he feels like he explodes like a Marksmen. Riot enforced Marksmen and AA reliant champions late game only.

To which we are lead to right now being a burst or be bursted meta. Have to burst the Marksmen down hard and fast before late game arrives. Or else the Marksmen will look at everyone funny and remove them from the game when the timer is up. Before late game was decided by strategic team comp. Now team comp is designed by most broken champions with most broken burst damage capabilities. Strategy is out the window.

Hügö1 votes

But the constantly fight lul.

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