He still feels like he's missing something. So will he be changed at all next patch?
What he may be missing (imo) Him being able to make plays. Right now as it stands, he just punishes bad plays from others, and to me that seems a bit bland.
Sooko17 votesI feel like he is getting Cassiopeia'd.
First a rework that demolishes him. (done)
Then an ability is changed into something very powerful to compensate for the overall nerfs in the rest of the kit, after his winrate goes down the drain. (in progress)
Then said champion reaches a huge ban rate due to said broken ability, meanwhile losing his former identity and most of his former mains.
Said champion gets nerfed, made balanced (kinda) and left in the pitiful state where little to nothing of its old self remains.
I just don't think that buffing solely his Q is a good idea. Veigar currently only uses three abilities, four if the enemy isn't cautious, and out of those, only 2 usually land. His W needs to be more appealing to use. All it does to me is waveclear and reveal brushes when I am out of wards (and occasional attempts to steal a dragon, which never go right anyway)
The Soulforged2 votesI feel like he is getting Cassiopeia'd.
First a rework that demolishes him. (done)
Then an ability is changed into something very powerful to compensate for the overall nerfs in the rest of the kit, after his winrate goes down the drain. (in progress)
Then said champion reaches a huge ban rate due to said broken ability, meanwhile losing his former identity and most of his former mains.
Said champion gets nerfed, made balanced (kinda) and left in the pitiful state where little to nothing of its old self remains.
I just don't think that buffing solely his Q is a good idea. Veigar currently only uses three abilities, four if the enemy isn't cautious, and out of those, only 2 usually land. His W needs to be more appealing to use. All it does to me is waveclear and reveal brushes when I am out of wards (and occasional attempts to steal a dragon, which never go right anyway)
You mean Karma'd?
RoyaiChaos3 votesNo... people actually played Veigar before his rework.
Thryale5 votesI played old karma, and still wish I could. She was one of the best wave clearers around and her shield bomb + heal could turn team fights easy.
There was no morellonomicon back then. If old karma had the items we have now, she's be stupid strong
RoyaiChaos2 votesI'm pretty sure there was, although it might have changed since then. I mean, I enjoyed Karma, but she needed a rework, there was a reason she was so unpopular.
Thryale3 votesyer right, there was a reason. But it had nothing to do with her strength.
Back in season 2, the community was really bad about pigeon holing champs to lanes/roles. And when karma was first released riot said "support" and that is where the community demanded she stay. I played karma mid, as a mage. And it was like pulling teeth just to get a match started cuz everyone would whine about me being a troll and q dodge. And even when I did get in a game, ppl would always blame me for the loss, regardless of how few deaths I had.
If that doesn't stop you from wanting to play a champ, nothing will. Oh, and let's not forget she was never in a free week rotation, ever.
The Soulforged1 votesAt the time she was decent in both lanes :D But she did scale better with gold than most supports.
Thryale1 votesaye, and let's also not forget that back then, a support was required to have no cs, no kills, and spend all their income on wards and elixirs. Not to mention trinkets didn't exist.
Back then, there was a pro match where the support (I think it was Xspecial) didn't even up grade his boots, and that was the only non consumable item he purchased all game.
We've come a long way since then. Now we've seen lulu accepted in not just bot lane support, but also top lane and midlane. If old karma existed today, she'd be perfectly fine, tbh.
The Soulforged1 votesaye, and let's also not forget that back then, a support was required to have no cs, no kills, and spend all their income on wards and elixirs. Not to mention trinkets didn't exist.
Back then, there was a pro match where the support (I think it was Xspecial) didn't even up grade his boots, and that was the only non consumable item he purchased all game.
We've come a long way since then. Now we've seen lulu accepted in not just bot lane support, but also top lane and midlane. If old karma existed today, she'd be perfectly fine, tbh.
True, true. The sad part is... the gold items introduced for supports would have made Karma (not Skarma) a really good support in today's meta.
Thryale1 voteshonestly? I don't know what effect they'd have on her. I'ma mid main, so I'd just play her mid, oblivious to how she performs bot.
The only flaw old karma had compared to the new skarma is range. That, and the fact that old karma only had 2 spells while skarma has 3. (Let's be honest, old karma's W was non-existant. I never lvl it till I maxed Q and E)
The Soulforged1 votesNo... people actually played Veigar before his rework.
The playerbase for Veigar was about the size of the playerbase before Karma prerework. A large number of people played Karma and cried about the stupid rework :*(.
Thryale1 votesat least ppl didn't give veigar mains grief for playing veigar tho.
I still have nightmares of q dodgers and whiners blaming me for every loss just cuz I picked karma and took her mid. (How dare you play a support in mid lane!)
The Soulforged1 votesYou poor poor child ;*(
DrCabes16 votesHope he changes. Right now he's a punisher champion. All of his spells only land if the opponent makes a mistake. Q blocked by minions so it only lands if laner is out of position, W is impossible to land without a stun unless they go afk, and his stun only lands if the other person is more blind then 
.
Lord Graves III1 votesTo be fair, Veigar hits his stride harder later anyway. Every second he farms he gets stronger faster than most champs. Also Dark Matter's AP ratio combined with the faster farming from Q is kinda the tits.
Veigar is weaker than he used to be, but the kit has been retuned to encourage the sort of play that attracted me to veigar in the first place.
Having a mediocre laning phase in exchange for rocking mid and late was always sort of Veigar's "thing". Having the tools to survive and farm during the early game is more than enough.
Buffing dark matter's reliability is dangerous. Due to the high rate of AP gain on veigar, even mid game when you put an extra point in E to guarantee landing W, the sheer scaling keeps the spell threatening before levels have been invested in it.
Late game being hit by Dark Matter is largely a death sentence. On a squishy it amounts to over half their health gone, and likey another rock is on the way shortly.
It doesn't hit easily, cause when it hits it hurts.
Sorry for rambling. Sleepy.
GuiltyGecko11 votes
:What's wrong little guy? We've given you buffs for two patches. Why are you still bad?
:Well, the problem is that I can't land my W-Dark Matter without a stun.
:Oh I see, so what you're saying is that we need to make your Q faster and give you more mana regen on your passive.
:What? No! Neither of those things help me land W! It's like I only have 3 abilities!
:So, we should increase the range of your Q, and reduce your mana cost. That's it right?
:ARE YOU LISTENING!? I CAN'T LAND MY FRIGGIN W! GIVE MY W A FRIGGIN SMALLER DELAY OR MAKE THE AOE FRIGGIN BIGGER! THROW ME A FRIGGIN BONE HERE.
:Okay, next patch we will give your ult more range and make your auto attacks more responsive.
Curling Veigar6 votes
but they didnt lower the mana cost =(
but an ult range buff would be nice imo
GuiltyGecko1 votesOkay, well I guess I SHOULD have said the past THREE patches. They lowered the mana cost on W,E, and R in patch 5.4. Still, you get the gist of what I mean.
Lord Graves III1 votesARE YOU LISTENING!? I CAN'T LAND MY FRIGGIN W! GIVE MY W A FRIGGIN SMALLER DELAY OR MAKE THE AOE FRIGGIN BIGGER! THROW ME A FRIGGIN BONE HERE.
To be fair, either change would break Veigar. If he can actually land W without assistance, he is going to eat almost every other mid laner alive. Veigar W is like swain W. Both are massively powerful and important to the champ, but very difficult to land, often requiring the use of another (unreliable) spell.
So, we should increase the range of your Q, and reduce your mana cost. That's it right?
Late game, veigar will land rocks, and he is going to get stuns in teamfights. He is a strong teamfighter, and he gets more out of farming than anyone this side of nasus. The buffs have been focused on giving him tools to survive but not necessarily stomp lane. Maybe this just works for me because it neatly aligned with my favorite parts of the champ. I love surviving a rocky laning phase to reach the promising payoff of that mid game turnaround and late game spike. Reducing veigar's ability to outright kill his lane opponents while increasing raw AP gains and safe farming ability was pretty much as well as any change could have gone in my opinion.
Zarxis7 votesStill waiting for W tweaks. It shouldn't be entirely reliant on his E's stun.
DrCabes1 votesIt has been that way because it deals massive aoe damage and shouldn't be very reliable by itself. If they make it that way they will probably nerf the damage which will hurt Veigar's ability to burst people down. They would have to buff his Q or R damage to make up for it or they could leave it and make his E dependable up close.
DrCyanide16 votesI think Veigar players would be OK taking a slight damage reduction nerf to W in order to get it to land some times. All the scaling in the world means nothing if an ability can't hit it's target
Fun side note, a stronger version of Dark Matter is already in the game, even if it is a little off meta (still got LCS play last week)
Cho'gath's Rupture :
Veigar's Dark Matter:
Cho'gath's Rapture is better in just about every way than Veigar's Dark Matter. Honestly, I almost wonder if AP Cho'gath does Veigar's job better than Veigar at the moment.
Curling Veigar1 votesI think Veigar players would be OK taking a slight damage reduction nerf to W in order to get it to land some times. All the scaling in the world means nothing if an ability can't hit it's target
Fun side note, a stronger version of Dark Matter is already in the game, even if it is a little off meta (still got LCS play last week)
Cho'gath's Rupture :
- 950 range
- 90 mana
- 9 second cooldown
- 175 radius
- 0.625 second delay
- 100% AP scaling
- Knocks up and slows
Veigar's Dark Matter:
- 900 range
- 70 to 90 mana (depending on level)
- 10 to 8 second cooldown (depending on level)
- 112.5 radius
- 1.25 second delay
- 100% AP Scaling
Cho'gath's Rapture is better in just about every way than Veigar's Dark Matter. Honestly, I almost wonder if AP Cho'gath does Veigar's job better than Veigar at the moment.
Only difference here is that Dark matter has a 320 base damage and chos rupture is like 300 or something
Saianna3 votes20 damage difference?!
OMFG NERF VEIGAR. TOO OP! Make it 1 minute delay on 10 radius aoe! NOW!
Kingsgrave1 votesI think Veigar players would be OK taking a slight damage reduction nerf to W in order to get it to land some times. All the scaling in the world means nothing if an ability can't hit it's target
Fun side note, a stronger version of Dark Matter is already in the game, even if it is a little off meta (still got LCS play last week)
Cho'gath's Rupture :
- 950 range
- 90 mana
- 9 second cooldown
- 175 radius
- 0.625 second delay
- 100% AP scaling
- Knocks up and slows
Veigar's Dark Matter:
- 900 range
- 70 to 90 mana (depending on level)
- 10 to 8 second cooldown (depending on level)
- 112.5 radius
- 1.25 second delay
- 100% AP Scaling
Cho'gath's Rapture is better in just about every way than Veigar's Dark Matter. Honestly, I almost wonder if AP Cho'gath does Veigar's job better than Veigar at the moment.
Just increase the radius and add a massive slow for a short duration if he lands it but keep the long delay. The difficulty in using it still remains but there is a lot more reward for landing it.
Zarxis3 votesIt has been that way because it deals massive aoe damage and shouldn't be very reliable by itself. If they make it that way they will probably nerf the damage which will hurt Veigar's ability to burst people down. They would have to buff his Q or R damage to make up for it or they could leave it and make his E dependable up close.
Riot could reduce his W's base damage and increase the scaling if making W reliable is a problem— he can already land it in teamfights because he receives help via allied CC (making it more reliable would be a buff to his laning phase). The most logical course of action would be to nerf its cooldown, but making the AOE much larger or the delay far shorter... Those changes would make it possible for Veigar to trade like he used to be capable of (E+W+Q, R if it's ready and it can finish off the target), but without the fact that W used to be effectively undodgeable (Veigar would only use it when his E stunned you). W shouldn't be unusable without allied help, but it also shouldn't entirely rely on an instant stun that Veigar no longer has.
Think: Orianna's abilities work extremely well when she attaches her ball to a tanky initiator, but they aren't useless when allies aren't around.
Curling Veigar5 votesYeh, he still needs attention.
Curling Veigar4 votesHe definitely has outplay potential but it's moreso punishing mistakes rather than making your own plays, which i don't like.
I played Xerath for the first time and his w (similar to veigar's meteor) is SO much easier to land despite the delay not being a lot shorter than Veigar's W.
Penguin Eclipse4 votesIf he feels like he is missing something then he has probably already been checked off as successfully completed. Zil, Azir, Kass, Syndra, Olaf.... still waiting.
MaizeCraze4 votesUnpopular opinion here, but I think Veigar is in a fine state right now.
Yes, he no longer has an insta-stun from 1025 units away. That being said, The stun is still land-able and prevents champions who wind up stuck in the middle from simply dashing out and taking the stun in a spot where Veigar cannot trade with them.
Q's missle speed is insanely high and has 950 range. Most of the times enemy laners will not be able to move out of the way fast enough (be it open or behind a minion) and will take a hit. Instead of afk farming, Veigar actually has to make intelligent decisions and position well to be rewarded. Not to mention in a teamfight, Q hits two enemies now.
Purchasing spell vamp is great on Veigar; a late game W on a minion wave will give you close to 400 hp back. With the removal of DFG, Veigar has the ability to buy 
without a significant tradeoff.
Two outcomes vs mobile mages:
http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1772218077/47439466?tab=overview (LB sold all her items at the end)
http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1778327630/47439466?tab=overview
Champion Skin2 votesWTF... why would Fizz build Tear+boots+sapphire crystal... instead of buying a sheen??
And you can see what LB had if you simply go on the build tab and check the build order then you can see the items she sold
And Yes Will of the Ancients is better on Veigar... but not because DFG is gone... but because Veigar has become more of a poke champion and less of a burst champion... (And he actually gets less Spell Vamp from his Q as it now only gives 1/3 spell vamp but at most deals twice the damage and can deal 0 damage)
MaizeCraze1 votesIf Veigar gets a full burst off on an enemy champion at level 18 with 1000 ap, he heals for 663 hp assuming both Q and W only hit one target (before resistances). Before DFG's removal, he healed zero beause he had no item slot for WOTA. With two spells with 1.0 AP ratios that damage the enemy once, Veigar is most certainly a burst mage.
Champion Skin1 votesWell... why would the AP ratio on W matter since it is almost impossible to land unless the enemy mess up or you have an ally to set you up...
Oh and is Swain a burst mage then? After all his Q has a 0.9 AP ratio and his E at rank 5 has a 0.96 AP ratio and his ult can have more then 1.0 AP ratio
MaizeCraze1 votesAll of those skills are damage over time. Damage over time is not burst. I will be happy to debate if you can bring up a relevant case. This does not even come close to qualifying.
The Soulforged2 votesUnpopular opinion here, but I think Veigar is in a fine state right now.
Yes, he no longer has an insta-stun from 1025 units away. That being said, The stun is still land-able and prevents champions who wind up stuck in the middle from simply dashing out and taking the stun in a spot where Veigar cannot trade with them.
Q's missle speed is insanely high and has 950 range. Most of the times enemy laners will not be able to move out of the way fast enough (be it open or behind a minion) and will take a hit. Instead of afk farming, Veigar actually has to make intelligent decisions and position well to be rewarded. Not to mention in a teamfight, Q hits two enemies now.
Purchasing spell vamp is great on Veigar; a late game W on a minion wave will give you close to 400 hp back. With the removal of DFG, Veigar has the ability to buy
Two outcomes vs mobile mages:
Two matches in normals between individuals who we do not know the skill level of, does not show us that Veigar is fine.
MaizeCraze1 votesYes I know. In hindsight I shouldn't have included those---they draw attention away from my arguement.
Sigma1172 votesI seriously hope they do something for him. I played him for the first time since the nerfs the other day...and he's useless now.
Before he was incredibly bursty but had no mobility, relied on Deathfire, and was useless unless he had his spells. Now his E will never land unless the enemy team are stupid and that makes landing the W incredibly hard. The removal of deathfire with seemingly no compensation is the nail in the coffin. I think the idea of the Q was to make him get more stacks but a good Veigar would rarely miss a Q stack anyway so there's no overall gain there.
Champion Skin1 votesWell if they keep increasing the range on Veigar Q and such I guess he will become poke mage kind of... or something like that
BrutusTheCat1 votesWell if they increase the range of hie q some more and then extend the range of his ult to 1000-3000ish we basically have a second xerath
Sneak Dog2 votesI think I like him right now.
He farms a lot, but is quite bad alone. In teamfights his cage is still insanely good, there's setup for dark matter and your ultimate deletes someone. I like this gameplay pattern where Veigar needs some help but gets insanely scary if he has it.
Veigar will not be making many plays entirely on his own. He can make plays like locking up a team and having allies throw AoE in there. He has setup and wants setup and he finally has counterplay, allowing him to be strong.
junglerboy162 votesTo be honest, Veigar feels even more toxic to play against than before the changes. Before I could bully him out of lane and had a clear window of "beat this guy now and win". Now, sure I can dodge the stun, but why does that even matter anymore? He can farm from behind his turret and I can't even resort to body blocking the skillshot because it hits twice. Riot swapped out "no counterplay insta-stun" (which actually had plenty of counterplay) for "I can't do anything to stop him farming anymore" (which is really bad). I'm not the greatest player, but I can certainly tell that he is more broken than he used to be. Not more OP or less OP, just less healthy. Before, he scaled from weak early, good mid game, godly late game. Now he is just ok early, better than average mid game, better than average late game. I could care less about dodging the stun if he can 100-0 burst me mid game without W or E (and I know to build hourglass and MR and health into him). He farms AP too easily, but doesn't scale as well as he used to, which kind of just leaves him feeling really bleh to play against. I used to be able to say "yeah, I got outplayed and he made it to late game, WP Veigar." now it is just "yeah, this sucks, I can't deny farm, I can't really bully him, but at least late game he'll only get me down to 10% instead of all dead". If I get behind now, I can catch up to Veigar. SERIOUSLY? Veigar shouldn't be getting ahead unless I misplay or he makes it to mid-late game. I shouldn't catch up to him when he is ahead either, because he is supposed to scale harder than anyone except maybe Poppy or Nasus (but the way they nerfed his ratios, I actually do now). This leaves him feeling icky to play against like his power curve is more of a power scribble than anything.
TL;DR: Veigar's scaling is out of whack right now, his early game is too hard to shut down, but he doesn't scale hard enough late game either. It isn't just "less extreme" scaling, it is counterintuitive and un-fun to play against.
EDIT: It certainly feels like he only has three abilities right now though, lots of Q spam, R whenever it is available, E for zoning and an occasional stun if I get body blocked by minions or another champion, and W is a total non factor. Last game I played against Veigar, he 100-0ed me several times during mid game, but he only landed his W maybe one of those times.
Basically, what makes Veigar unfun to play against isn't that he can stun instantly or that he can burst, it is that if he does stun me, I'm helpless and the game gets spun in a 180 from me being up 2 kills and 15 CS to dying 6 times in a row while hugging turret. He is feast or famine. He has plenty of counterplay, and had plenty before, but the same issue stands: if he lands stun, you can't do a single frickin' thing. The nerf to E only made it so that Veigar famines more than he feasts, without actually solving anything, because if he feasts, he is still just as toxic and anti-fun as ever, and if he famines he is just as anti-fun to play as. They need to address how binary his kit is, but all they did was make it more binary.
Buttigieg 20201 votesEvery patch since the rework he is getting buffed. Calm down
Very Hard Engage9 votesEvery patch since the rework he is getting buffed. Calm down
"buffed" and "usable" or "good" are all very different words, please try to play him and see what happens to him.
Thryale1 votesI know this is not a popular opinion, but I really want his point and click Q back. I really am not liking it being a skill shot.
Volt Cruelerz1 votesHonestly, if the charge time on his E were reduced just a hair more, I'd be okay. Right now it's 0.75. Drop it to 0.6 and I think I'd be fine. Of course, I'd prefer a rework, but that's another story....
RIP Tahm Kench1 votesI honestly think he's in a fine spot, but since you want appeasement...
What if his W had a bit more combo potential with E (as in W>E cast order)? I mean you're never going to get the instant E back, but if you could attach a small slow before veigar's W hit it would both increase the W harass hit rate, and at the expense of making E slightly more telegraphed, make it easier to hit.
Tl;dr make his W somewhat like Karma empowered Q, not as strong of a slow though.
Juicyman1 votesNerf something on his W and give it two charges meaning people caught in his cage are actually threatened.
Curling Veigar1 votesReducing the delay slightly is probably the best choice atm, because no Veigar player wants Veigar to be doing any less damage (see the ult nerf)
Curling Veigar1 votesThey only took 20% off his ult, not much of a nerfed ratio but I don't like how they reduced his damage at all.
Bisaknosp1 votesyou just want your main to be broken again stfu he doesnt need any more buffs