You've nerfed almost everything in Sejuani's kit at least once and now you want to nerf her more

Moody P·Sep 1, 2018·44 votes·11,920 views

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2018/08/831-pbe-update-tentative-balance-changes.html

Sejuani

Permafrost (E) damage lowered from 30/45/60/75/90 to 20/35/60/65/80

The actual change isn't as annoying as the philosophy. If you're so compelled to keep fudging her numbers, can you really say this rework is worth the trouble? Sejuani is terrible at almost every level of play besides pro. I was expecting a buff based on how you talked about her in Gameplay thoughts, or an actual attempt to fix her abysmal performance for even dedicated Sejuani players, not another nerf.

22 Comments

drash79Sep 1, 201820 votes

Sejuani Rip.

I mean thats pro play. Taking away all the champs we loved and justify it by saying they'er too strong in a pro team.

My these brave souls not go quietly into the night. [zombie-nunu-tears]

DanjengSep 1, 20182 votes

Tfw my main is constantly mentioned on boards as a champion gutted cause of pro play. I remember back in Season 5/6, I thought to myself, at least I'm not Azir/Kalista tier.

Then the rework came. And Ryze sat at the lowest winrate in the game for like a straight year(s) in both roles. All the while being p/b in pro play. Like shit mate, I remember a Rioter posting that one of their main goals of the rework is to lower the gap between pro play and solo queue. But not only did this rework fail to do that, rather it somehow made Ryze even worse of a problem than ever. IDK man, for starters maybe a teamwide teleport isn't a good solo queue tool and might just be a tad too strong in pro play. Nah nevermind I don't know what I'm talking about. Let's nerf his Q AP ratio 45% > 35% for the worlds patch hahahha pls help me i cant handle the nerfs much longer end the suffering

KrullySep 1, 20181 votes

First they came of the Azir mains, I did not speak out, for I wasn't an Azir main. Then they came for the Ivern mains, I did not speak out, for I wasn't an Ivern main. Then they came for the Nami mains, and there was no one to speak out for me....

Witch of BabylonSep 1, 20185 votes

Orianna is really good right now though??

Pandemic PunchSep 1, 20188 votes

I would be OK with a revert. I enjoyed playing her until they reworked her.

BisaknospSep 1, 20187 votes

shes not flashy enough better buff lucian

HethaleanSep 1, 20186 votes

She's replaced by Nunu most likely now, they're just making sure that nail goes into the coffin.

BlytedSep 1, 20186 votes

I wish they would just revert Sej.

Sire HippingtonSep 1, 20183 votes

Like most of the class update victims(no matter ahich class update), she really would deserve a revert or a proper rework...

Hemulen MagiSep 1, 20182 votes

Sejuani has a negative winrate in LCS and doesn't have too high of a ban rate, but she keeps getting nerfed anyways. She legitimately feels like one of the weakest champions in the game, and her kit isn't even unhealthy. She doesn't deserve to be in the dumpster. This is absurd. Riot, buff Sejuani and Shen already! Just balance for the overall game and let LCS form its own divergent meta with its own set of picks and bans. LCS doesn't need to be balanced around, just let the pro players figure out what is strongest for their coordinated teams, and let them learn to counter the meta they create.

Focusing balancing around LCS wasn't the philosophy that made this game or the LCS successful in the first place.

YagoSep 1, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hemulen Magi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=heYg00X2,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-09-01T02:10:14.461+0000)

Sejuani has a negative winrate in LCS and doesn't have too high of a ban rate, but she keeps getting nerfed anyways. She legitimately feels like one of the weakest champions in the game, and her kit isn't even unhealthy. She doesn't deserve to be in the dumpster. This is absurd. Riot, buff and already! Just balance for the overall game and let LCS form its own divergent meta with its own set of picks and bans. LCS doesn't need to be balanced around, just let the pro players figure out what is strongest for their coordinated teams, and let them learn to counter the meta they create.

Focusing balancing around LCS wasn't the philosophy that made this game or the LCS successful in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this particular change is justified...but Sejuani has one of the most unhealthy kits in the game.

Hemulen MagiSep 1, 20184 votes

We're going to need to agree to disagree. I think that Sejuani's kit is extremely effective at encouraging and rewarding healthy teamwork.

YagoSep 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hemulen Magi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=heYg00X2,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-09-01T04:52:37.698+0000)

We're going to need to agree to disagree. I think that Sejuani's kit is extremely effective at encouraging and rewarding healthy teamwork.

There's nothing in Sejuani's kit which encourages teamwork any more than any other champion. Even if that were the case, she's still extremely frustrating to play against.

Hemulen MagiSep 1, 20182 votes

CC on its own encourages teamwork, since it is much, much stronger when combined with follow-up from teammates and can be used to peel for teammates, so tanks and controllers are teamwork focused classes. But Sejuani's CC in particular encourages teamwork more than most others because it has a similar mechanic to Braum's passive stun, where teammates' attacks contribute to the stacks required to activate the stun ability (her E).

I also don't think that Sejuani is excessively frustrating to play against. She excels at teamfights, and most teamfights don't just happen without warning (you'll normally see the enemy team grouping up and moving towards an objective so you can predict what is going down). Her ganks often require flanking, just like other tank junglers, so you have more options to plan your counterplay, since the tank requires more travel-time past potentially warded areas in order to get into the ideal position for the gank. Tanks take a long time to take down an opponent, so they are often forced to plan to tower-dive an opponent, but this also means that you'll be at a big advantage if your team sees the gank happening and moves in to fight under your turret. Sejuani can't kill you in 0.4 seconds like a slayer jungler. That on its own is a lot of points in her favor in my book as far as frustration goes...

YagoSep 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hemulen Magi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=heYg00X2,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-01T05:38:09.431+0000)

CC on its own encourages teamwork, since it is much, much stronger when combined with follow-up from teammates and can be used to peel for teammates, so tanks and controllers are teamwork focused classes. But Sejuani's CC in particular encourages teamwork more than most others because it has a similar mechanic to Braum's passive stun, where teammates' attacks contribute to the stacks required to activate the stun ability (her E).

That mechanic is one of the worst things about her kit. She can quite literally miss every single one of her abilities and get kited or zoned out of the fight and still punish you.

It doesn't really encourage Sejuani's team to do anything any differently than they otherwise would have. It doesn't even do all that much to affect your team composition during the pick phase.

Hemulen MagiSep 1, 20182 votes

Pretty much any champion can provide some reliable value in a fight, even if they mess up. At least the reliable aspect of Sejuani's E requires teammates to make the best use of it, and thereby influences Sejuani's actions since she will usually only fight with allies present (she is essentially the opposite of a duelist). Compare that to the reliable value provided by an autoattack or targeted ability based champion, or an assassin/diver with a combo that lacks real counterplay once memorized and practiced enough to reliably execute it. Sejuani relies on her allies to a greater extent than most other champions, even if her allies don't need to go far out of their way to make Sejuani work as long as the Sejuani player knows and considers her own requirements for success.

YagoSep 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hemulen Magi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=heYg00X2,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-01T06:15:30.703+0000)

Pretty much any champion can provide some reliable value in a fight, even if they mess up. At least the reliable aspect of Sejuani's E requires teammates to make the best use of it, and thereby influences Sejuani's actions since she will usually only fight with allies present (she is essentially the opposite of a duelist). Compare that to the reliable value provided by an autoattack or targeted ability based champion, or an assassin/diver with a combo that lacks real counterplay once memorized and practiced enough to reliably execute it. Sejuani relies on her allies to a greater extent than most other champions, even if her allies don't need to go far out of their way to make Sejuani work as long as the Sejuani player knows and considers her own requirements for success.

It doesn't require her teammates to do anything other than what they were already going to do. Sejuani's not any different than the dozens of other champions who prefer to fight with allies around. Her E further rewards her for what she was already going to be doing courtesy of her class. It also allows her to remain relevant even if she couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

It's...also not Sejuani's only frustrating mechanic?

The nature of having multiple instances of conditional CC is that they stop being conditional after you land the first one. This makes it exponentially more difficult for you to dodge than it is for her to aim.

Her E is always available. There's literally no opening for you to fight without the threat of her turning things around with a stun. It's not that she can always stun someone reliably. It's that she can and _will _ be able to stun _anyone _ reliably.

Sejuani's R provides a massive slow field and zoning tool even if she misses her target.

Sejuani's W adds to E on both hits, despite the first one being almost unavoidable. This creates situations where she stuns you even though you managed to disengage before she earned the final stack.

Sejuani's passive allows her to merely walk out of situations that would have been deadly for many other champions.

ParoeSep 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hemulen Magi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=heYg00X2,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-09-01T02:10:14.461+0000)

Sejuani has a negative winrate in LCS and doesn't have too high of a ban rate, but she keeps getting nerfed anyways. She legitimately feels like one of the weakest champions in the game, and her kit isn't even unhealthy. She doesn't deserve to be in the dumpster. This is absurd. Riot, buff and already! Just balance for the overall game and let LCS form its own divergent meta with its own set of picks and bans. LCS doesn't need to be balanced around, just let the pro players figure out what is strongest for their coordinated teams, and let them learn to counter the meta they create.

Focusing balancing around LCS wasn't the philosophy that made this game or the LCS successful in the first place.

This concept would require riot to focus on having a good product first. They dont want a good product, they want to chase the E$ports dream.