I'm surprised no one has been talking about the pace of games.

Electro522·Nov 21, 2018·24 votes·8,834 views

One of the biggest complaints all season to come out of the Boards was that it felt that games were decided way too quickly.Games felt like they were ending too soon, and that, effectively, the game felt like a coin flip.

Thing is.......games are probably ending even quicker now then they were before 8.23 dropped.......and I haven't seen a single complaint out of the Boards because of it.

Which kind of makes me wonder....has Riot finally found that middle ground of Western audiences wanting games that don't end so soon, but also Eastern audiences wanting quicker games? Or, has everyone simply gotten used to the amount of time each game takes?

Take my games, for example: I'm 10 games in to the preseason changes, and only 3 have gone above 30 minutes (one ended at 30 minutes), and only 1 of those 3 have gone over 35. Not one has reached 40 minutes. So far, the average seems to be about 26 to 28 minutes.

For comparison, my games before 8.23 were consistently hitting 30 minutes, and even go beyond 40 minutes regularly.

And yet....it doesn't feel like either team has a clear advantage until the 20 minute mark.....at least in my eyes.

What are your guys' opinions on this?

43 Comments

TormentulaNov 21, 201811 votes

I haven't noticed anything quicker, my games usually end between 20-36 minutes which is a fine sweet spot. (I prefer shorter games anyway, I have a life I just don't like when games feel short because they're already decided early.)

Only thing I hate is their excuse that extended laning phases offer more comeback potential... bullshit more like longer your lane opponent freezes and denies CS then kills you or forces you back with their lead. I never thought leaving lane phase sooner was something I missed so I can at least catch waves or roam instead, they need to target the massive snowball advantage a lane gets rather then how long the lane last.

SalronNov 22, 201811 votes

Yeah what has happened now is that laning is forcibly extended to at most 14 minutes(usually around 12 minutes), and after that the game explodes into a very short midgame before hitting lategame at 20-25 minutes depending on how much gold both teams have gotten by then It's fucking insane, the minion changes need to be rolled back a bit

here's qt's opinion on it: https://clips.twitch.tv/LivelyGoodTildeDancingBanana

CaveslothNov 22, 20181 votes

I was with him.. till that whole "Austism style pace". Wtf does that even mean? What does a serious mental illness have to do with game pacing?

AirKingNeoNov 22, 20181 votes

To add onto this, it is complete horseshit that Turret Plating stops giving gold after 14 minutes. You just play a fucking lane bully and you've denied your opponent like 500+ gold from plating. It's too snowbally.

Spank the FoxNov 22, 20185 votes

I would argue that’s the strategy for picking early game champions.

TheSingularityNov 22, 20184 votes

Then what is the point in ever picking anything but them? If that is their intention, they are enforcing a meta that blatantly favors viewership by forcing early game champs, all of which need to fight and snowballl

Spank the FoxNov 22, 20183 votes

Late game champions shouldn’t be strong early compared to early game champions, that’s their weakness.

And champions that are relevant at all stages get complained about too, like when Vayne/Kai’Sa can survive laning with ease and scale well. Also creates homogenization where all champions don’t have weak points, then why pick anything else besides the top 10 generalists?

A meta that rewards early game champions but punishes them if they fall behind is a good meta, and this is close to it.

Being strong early -> snowball is their win condition, otherwise they straight up lose to everything else.

TheSingularityNov 22, 20182 votes

You are correct. But they shouldn't be non options. The lead an early game champ can gain through plates, while completely preventing you from getting any is absolutely absurd on top of being zoned from CS and possibly being killed a few times

ﬂooNov 22, 20181 votes

Yea, already had the pleasure with Dark Harvest draven

Silly NeekoNov 21, 20189 votes

The games are going much quicker especially if someone like Draven gets ahead at all. Because after that and with little help, towers are MUCH weaker and go down faster.

TwitchInMyPantsNov 22, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Silly Neeko,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=he4YsiEA,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-21T23:23:49.868+0000)

The games are going much quicker especially if someone like Draven gets ahead at all. Because after that and with little help, towers are MUCH weaker and go down faster.

Literally only buffs to towers

"Towers are MUCH weaker"

These boards cannot be pleased. Only the outer turrets can even be argued to being nerfed and that's after 14 minutes when the turret plating vanishes, and even then its only for AP champions since they'll have 0 MR but more hp than before. Demolish is arguably buffed at the cost of base damage, so there's that if you're a Yorick player I guess?

It's day 2 of this patch and its pre-season. I know its easy to have kneejerk reactions and I've done so myself, but saying "Towers are much weaker" is the biggest lie I've seen written and this is the shit that makes Riot ignore these boards. There's nothing objective about that kind of statement, nothing makes the towers weaker. They give more gold, which can get you a longsword faster to kill first turret or something, but they've literally been given extra AD and the outer ones got an amazing durability buff for 14 minutes. Nothing about that is "incredibly weaker".

Silly NeekoNov 22, 20181 votes

I just played a game where we had braum, kogmaw, udyr pushing down top and with the rift herald trying to charge up a hit we had the tower down from full health. It finally was able to do some damage to an inhib, and then when we were not able to get onto the nexus turrets before it was able to do some damage there. We did not have any demolish used on the towers.

Before, the tower would have been about 1000 hp before the herald hits after walking from one turret to the other.

It is not a baseless claim, it has more health but less resistances. The attack buff makes it so if you DIVE it is stronger, which i agree it is. I am now less likely to successfully dive as Leona which i was able to do before with good success rate early on.

The health buff for towers makes it appear to be falling slower. However after that turret plating falls off.... or you kill the first turret... the other towers are weak as heck against being damaged.

Yes, the plating makes the first one stronger. It is more durable. After that first 14 minutes of tower buff however the towers feel like paper, even with the health buff.

Maybe you need to play some more games?

Edit: Also understand that this thread itself is about FIRST IMPRESSIONS AFTER THE UPDATE? Yes, the thoughts may change still, however my impressions on the tower has remained the same even after day 2.

TwitchInMyPantsNov 22, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Silly Neeko,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=he4YsiEA,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-11-22T10:18:57.934+0000)

I just played a game where we had braum, kogmaw, udyr pushing down top and with the rift herald trying to charge up a hit we had the tower down from full health. It finally was able to do some damage to an inhib, and then when we were not able to get onto the nexus turrets before it was able to do some damage there. We did not have any demolish used on the towers.

Before, the tower would have been about 1000 hp before the herald hits after walking from one turret to the other.

It is not a baseless claim, it has more health but less resistances. The attack buff makes it so if you DIVE it is stronger, which i agree it is. I am now less likely to successfully dive as Leona which i was able to do before with good success rate early on.

The health buff for towers makes it appear to be falling slower. However after that turret plating falls off.... or you kill the first turret... the other towers are weak as heck against being damaged.

Yes, the plating makes the first one stronger. It is more durable. After that first 14 minutes of tower buff however the towers feel like paper, even with the health buff.

Maybe you need to play some more games?

Edit: Also understand that this thread itself is about FIRST IMPRESSIONS AFTER THE UPDATE? Yes, the thoughts may change still, however my impressions on the tower has remained the same even after day 2.

Dude Herald has been doing 60% of a towers hp all of last season. You're literally listing an anecdote that's entirely unimpaired by the balance changes. Literally go ahead and list whatever changes are making towers delete themselves faster, I promise they don't exist.

Towers sucked all of last season. They're marginally buffed and once plating is gone they still collapse very quickly. That's in no way "Incredibly weaker" than last patch.

Reminder, every turret change on 8.23:

PLATING Outer turrets begin the game with five temporary plates. A plate is broken for each 1000 damage dealt to the turret. (Plates don't have health of their own.) PLATE STRENGTH Turret plating grants 40 armor and magic resist at game start PLATE BREAKING Dealing 1000 damage to an outer turret also causes a plate to break, granting 160 gold (divided among nearby champions) and increasing the turret's armor and magic resist by 30 until turret plating falls off BULWARK For 20 seconds after a plate is destroyed, the turret also gains Bulwark, granting an additional 25 armor and magic resist for each nearby enemy champion past the first. Multiple instances of Bulwark stack if multiple plates are destroyed within a 20 second window. FALLOFF Turret plating falls off at 14:00, causing outer turrets to lose ALL armor and magic resist and making unclaimed plating gold permanently inaccessible

Turrets are literally more durable and give more gold

FIRST BRICK 300 gold ⇒ 150 gold (reduced to accommodate turret plating gold)

First turret gives less gold to compensate for new gold

HEALTH 3800 ⇒ 5000 AD SCALING 4 per minute ⇒ 9 per minute AD CAP 180 at 7:30 ⇒ 278 at 14:00 ARMOR & MAGIC RESIST 55 ⇒ 0 (replaced by turret plating) ARMOR & MAGIC RESIST SCALING +1 per minute ⇒ 0 (replaced by turret plating) GLOBAL GOLD 50 (unchanged)

Outer turrets got 1200 hp but their resists drop to 0 after 14 minutes (MUCH LONGER THAN MANY LANING PHASES LAST PATCH AND MANY BEFORE).

AD SCALING 4 per minute ⇒ 9 per minute AD CAP 250 at 28:00 ⇒ 305 at 17:00 GLOBAL GOLD 100 ⇒ 50

AD SCALING 4 per minute ⇒ 9 per minute AD CAP 250 at 28:00 ⇒ 305 at 17:00 GLOBAL GOLD 150 ⇒ 50

AD SCALING 4 per minute ⇒ 9 per minute AD CAP 230 at 28:00 ⇒ 285 at 17:00 GLOBAL GOLD 75 ⇒ 50

Gee, literally all of these changes are more AD.

Shucks, I can't find any rift herald or nexus changes either. In fact, the only neutral changes you could argue are major are minion buffs and they have a hard cap on their stats now and the changes aren't even relevant until 37 minutes other than some durability buffs.

You're either a liar or relying on pure anecdotes based on a few stomps. Both are bad feedback and once again, Riot is totally justified in ignoring it if you can't even create a basic argument for your point. Instead you listed some anecdotes, that's not an argument. I can just as easily say "Oh I fought a Lucian Pyke lane and they didn't kill tower instantly like that patch, therefor this patch is perfect"! That's not a satisfying argument on its own at all huh? I actually have to explain why that'd be the case to convince anyone, at least anyone who's not part of this "RITO DOES EVERYTHING WRONG" circlejerk.

Frankly, I wouldn't be using such harsh terms if you didn't literally say towers are weaker which has no objective basis in reality and you've offered nothing to substantiate it other than "Oh towers died really fast in my games, Herald couldn't even charge". Your exact scenario could've had last patch but because you experienced it on this one you're literally going around lying about how towers are nerfed.

Silly NeekoNov 22, 20181 votes

Lol first off, get off your high horse of circle jerking yourself thinking i am saying Riot is doing anything wrong. I am simply stating my opinion about what it feels like to me. Seeing as there are many people who say the same thing about towers feeling weaker..... perhaps that is something to think about. The stats may be there, but is Bork possibly effecting towers now? Is there an excessive amount of more damage that was added that counteracts the extra health given to the towers? I dont know. All i know is that they feel weaker except the damage.

Second, the herald could not charge because the towers went down that fast. 3 towers down before the herald could do anything (first at least was mostly damaged, so that is understandable. Its after that.) And between its walk time from one turret to the next the tower was down. This was at about minute 20 if that? Think it might have been 18 or 19. Kogmaw has attack speed, but no attack damage besides guinsoos. Udyr had a trinity and i think that was his only actual item. Would have to double check. Then there was tank braum with no demolish.

Third, yes, L A N I N G. P H A S E. O N L Y. Is when the towers feel like they are not completely made out of paper. They need to keep resistances on the towers atleast a bit of them for AFTER that 14 minute mark. That is, if they want them to not fall quickly when being attacked.

Fourth, my opinions could change same as everyone elses.... however, currently, this is what it feels like.

Stop trying to assume that anyone who says anything that you think is negative is 100% trolling due to it being the second day. It is feedback. The towers feel weaker to me. Multiple people say the same thing. Is there a reason for it? I do not know. I figured it looked fine on paper, but in game they seem to be taken down faster than before (i swear if you start spouting off over the first tower before 14 minutes inwhich i already explained is the ONLY GOSH DANG TIME THAT IT FEELS MORE DURABLE i am reporting your commentary as harrassment).

Happy thanksgiving if you celebrate it.

DerMangoJoghurtNov 21, 20186 votes

It's not a big sample size, but so far my games haven't been noticeably faster. The last 8 games were 37 minutes long on average, excluding 2 surrendered ones.

DuskDaUmbreonNov 22, 20186 votes

I think it was due to lane phase being extended.

Which is what most people want. Nobody wants a drawn out late-game, because it'd feel tedious when ahead and like you're just getting your ass kicked over and over when behind. But a longer early game leaves more room for mistakes. More room for personal decisions.

Slythrin UmbreonNov 22, 20184 votes

No, I've just been deciding whether or not to just give up. This is hopeless. Nothing will ever get better.

Slythrin UmbreonNov 22, 20183 votes

I've litterally been waiting for these turret buffs, or fucking anything, since they were overnerfed to shit in preseason 4. This is the most pathetic bullshit I've seen. They really have no idea how their game even works, do they?

CaveslothNov 22, 20183 votes

The problem isn't that that don't know, its that they WANT it to be this way. This whole "oh we'll fix the snowball, we'll fix high damage" was a trick. They WANT the snowball, they WANT high damage button mashing streetfighter style play. If you thought they were going to fix it this, I envy your ability to be optimistic. I hope that like me you'll be able to break your addiction to league, I just hope you aren't like me and can't find a better game because your computer is a dinosaur.

ModCaptainMårvelousNov 22, 20184 votes

So far my experience has been two fold:

A.) When a game is lost, that game is LOST. B.) When a game is even, the game time increases.

It's anecdotal and a lot of things now are basically testing the waters (or just abusing dark harvest) but it feels like even games go on longer while stomps are finished fairly quickly. Plus, in general, less jungler ganks in my experience. Which is nice I guess.

EDIT: It might also be that even if game time is just as fast/faster, there's less "Push down the turret in one shove", which means games "feel" longer because you can have a longer lane phase?

I don't know. All my experience is just my own and it might be better or worse.

SillaeNov 22, 20184 votes

While the games have certainly felt quicker, they also haven't felt so lopsided. It's not really fun for me, winning or losing, to have one lane score a kill then roam and take every damn tower.

Games are faster, but laning is longer, which results in people being able to farm up a bit more and not be useless, which means less complaints of hopelessness due to a fed Draven or something.

I can go even or lose slightly early as Illaoi but since laning is longer (also Illaoi waveclear is hella fast so I can usually get most/all of the turret plating gold as long as I'm not facing some bullcrap leblanc top) I can get more farm and stay relevant, and get the inevitable quadra when they all try to pounce on me.

The only class that I think would prolly be upset are assassins and assassin junglers, since they relied on forcing down the towers after kills and ending it ASAP.

BrahgoNov 21, 20183 votes

To be honest, the games have felt a bit quicker.

ResterNov 22, 20183 votes

To be honest I haven't noticed a change in the pace of games, everthing is kind of a crapshoot because you can have a game end at 20 mins or you can have one going up to 45 mins.

lil kodaNov 22, 20183 votes

or maybe people are still making up there minds because pre season just began, holy fucking shit

Akali is SO HOTNov 22, 20185 votes

Idk judging by the posts here it seems that a lot of people have already made up their minds that League has been ruined again for the 20th time now.

TwitchInMyPantsNov 22, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=he4YsiEA,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2018-11-22T07:08:45.374+0000)

Idk judging by the posts here it seems that a lot of people have already made up their minds that League has been ruined again for the 20th time now.

You're right

All the people who are posting about how League is ruined are the same crybabies who have done it most of this year

Even if they had anything valid to say its so buried under angsty angry bias that it couldn't surface for a moment. S8 is the fastest season ever and people are too busy complaining about how the balance team all need to be fired instead of offering solutions or pointing out what does/doesn't work. It's the same garbage every year.

@Anyone who'd like a discussion with Riot - consider what productive information your feedback is actually giving and whether you'd want to read it as someone who spent hours for weeks working on the various projects Riot puts out. "Fire the balance team" or "Broken champion, delete them" are incredibly common and incredibly useless. Worst of all you guys are literal liars. There is no point taking feedback from anyone who'd literally spin the truth just because they're upset with balance. You guys are telling me towers are weaker than ever when nothing actually made them weaker based off of Day 2 placebo and even if that was the case no solutions are offered and no feedback on what's working is offered. No one with any credibility would take you seriously with the discussion looking like this.

D4M2X0Nov 22, 20183 votes

feels like the average game length is 25-40 mins with comebacks being possible, laning phase at top/bot exists now too

Malix FarwinNov 22, 20183 votes

Overall time is shorter because Baron can actually end games now however laning is longer now which is what a lot of people really wanted.

TheSingularityNov 22, 20183 votes

Personally, I just gave up.

Plates add to the snowball as they get a better flow of gold than if they had to wait longer, to get it all in one go. Then the plates go @14 minutes, and the towers become the easiest things to take down ever. People who're in a feeding position (not necessarily intentionally) are worth now more gold.

And towers are no safer than they used to be.

My ideal towers:

plates are worth 1/4 as much gold as current. They become stronger when more enemy champions are around
After the plates are gone, towers don't become a water molecule about to hit a wire with electricity flowing through it (they have higher armor/MR than current)
@14 minutes, the plates are replaced by a really epic focus (like a lens or sun disc feature) that grants towers additional damage to champions (the energy blast flies through it)
outer, inner, inhibitor turrets have plates and lose them @15/20/25 minutes respectively (all gain the focus thing). Fountain turrets have no plates, but deal damage+5%max health true damage to champions. Fountain turret DPS doubled

VartiusNov 21, 20182 votes

I didn't notice game becoming quicker, however you do have a great point about it being hard to tell which team has the advantage untill 20th minute mark. They did, definitely, feel a LOT more enjoyable for me. Plus - I've actually had 3 games where we did incredible come-backs and I don't remember when that last happened pre-patch 8.23.

Modl Ryden lNov 22, 20182 votes

All the bounties being thrown around between both sides actually help with teams getting their builds together. Pair that with the gold you get from breaking turret plates and really all the team fights and 1v1s boil down closely to skill rather than having bought your win.

I've had a ranked game during this patch where they had a Diana and Lux bot lane. There came a time where they were BOTH legendary however it seldom felt as if I were behind them, despite having a score of 7/6 or something along those lines.

Some of the gold I got were from assisting bounties or bagging a bounty or two. Especially since everyone is worth a healthy sum of gold, despite having a negative KDA.

I like it! It fulfills my in-game desire of wanting to actually play the builds I want to in game and actually have an opportunity to fight fair 1v1s.

mack9112Nov 22, 20181 votes

All my games have felt alot closer though even if a little shorter with both teams having a chance to win

SoconNov 22, 20181 votes

The pace of games will be fast until people get used to the preseason changes

Red NoofleNov 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

One of the biggest complaints all season to come out of the Boards was that it felt that games were decided way too quickly.Games felt like they were ending too soon, and that, effectively, the game felt like a coin flip.

Thing is.......games are probably ending even quicker now then they were before 8.23 dropped.......and I haven't seen a single complaint out of the Boards because of it.

The changes have ruined strategy players. You can't play split pushes anymore because AD scale and bonuses make it so that they can move faster and gank easier, thus destroying strategy. It's brute force, burst champions heaven!

Many games end with surrender now because 2 vs 9 kills is getting closer to 'impossible' to recover from for those who've only recently joined the game.

Once again, Riot turned the game into a sandbox.

PercentagesNov 22, 20181 votes

I feel like it is too soon to tell, but I think people have just given up hope that Riot will heed anything or anyone who isn't a tencent suit...

Rain NTNov 22, 20181 votes

plating gives too much gold, DH still too strong after hotfix cause their balancing team havent done enough testing in PBE, scuttle crab is still a problem in higher elo, and shield bash is still op on Viktor, legit best top lane champion right now by far and his Q CDR and shield is not being touched -.-.. I dont care if you reduced the damage, increase the damage and increase his CDR and lower the shield

MLDzXnRRRNov 22, 20181 votes

I had a game where it was over before I hit lvl 6 on Trynda as a jungler. Our mid Yi killed the enemy Kata several times, dying in the process to the enemy Yi (it was normal blind pick). Then went bot and cleaned bot, but our bot and Yi died to Kata that was 0/2 or 3 at this time. We had extremely fed Kata and 2 fed Yis. The game was warped completely around these 3 characters and they were teamwiping. Extremely frustrating not only for the rest of my team, but for the enemy team too. I can imagine that low elo is gonna be locked in similar nightmare - few characters with double or triple the gold income the rest of average member of their team deciding the game. Potato gaming was on the right track with global gold before, but surrendered to the voice of madness - the typical Yi, Yasuo, Riven, Draven, Vayne, Zed, Kata player that wants to 1v9... Snowball is over the top with these inflated bounties and turret gold. Add gimmicks like Dark harvest and overpowered ignite damage. I won't play anytime soon... (In another game I got double kill at lvl 1 as Yi, thanks to my Pyke support hooks, the enemy team could have just opened mid at this point...)

JAAAAAAAAAAAAYCENov 22, 20181 votes

We havent been mentioning games ending sooner because we all already know this. People have been saying this game is more snowbally than before, thus meaning games end more earlier than before.

TrikzterzArmaNov 22, 20181 votes

Because it doesn't matter, Riot doesn't care. It's quite obvious.

RαyNov 22, 20181 votes

Are you kidding me? There are only three things I do on these forums:

Complain about damage being too high and the ridiculous state of certain champs.
Saying strategy has completely vanished and games are decided ten minutes in.
Compensate my frustration because I am talking to a wall by memeing.

DeirdresJNov 22, 20181 votes

Oh a blind mod, what a shocker.

People are all saying the exact same thing: That the game has gotten even more snowball than before and that games are pretty much decided at minute 14 once turret plating falls off and they become wet toilet-paper stands.

DNFVixenNov 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

One of the biggest complaints all season to come out of the Boards was that it felt that games were decided way too quickly.Games felt like they were ending too soon, and that, effectively, the game felt like a coin flip.

Thing is.......games are probably ending even quicker now then they were before 8.23 dropped.......and I haven't seen a single complaint out of the Boards because of it.

Which kind of makes me wonder....has Riot finally found that middle ground of Western audiences wanting games that don't end so soon, but also Eastern audiences wanting quicker games? Or, has everyone simply gotten used to the amount of time each game takes?

Take my games, for example: I'm 10 games in to the preseason changes, and only 3 have gone above 30 minutes (one ended at 30 minutes), and only 1 of those 3 have gone over 35. Not one has reached 40 minutes. So far, the average seems to be about 26 to 28 minutes.

For comparison, my games before 8.23 were consistently hitting 30 minutes, and even go beyond 40 minutes regularly.

And yet....it doesn't feel like either team has a clear advantage until the 20 minute mark.....at least in my eyes.

What are your guys' opinions on this?

in the last couple of days I have seen a fuck ton of complaints about pacing and not only on the boards but on multiple reddits and forums.