these are the only 2 champs that are hyper starting at level 3 and never ending.
str8 up nerf them please.
Edit: hefty Ryze nerfs on pbe Probably going to balance him, if not at least remove him from vayne tier.
MohawkBird40 votes[deleted]
YumaS2Astral10 votesVayne isn't particularly strong in the early game but let's get one thing straight: Vayne is nowhere near as weak as people say she is early either. So many safety nets, self-peel, and mobility for the laning phase it just completely invalidates her supposedly "weak" early game.
I also hate the fact that no matter how early it is in the game she can stun you from the middle of goddamn lane for a free kill. Some "weak" early game. I know people will say "Well don't stand near walls, idiot." Fact is that the range and knockback on her condemn is so long you don't even have to be near a wall. Not to mention the fact that if you catch her in the jungle it's a free stun for her regardless of where you stand and you're dead.
To be honest, Vayne indeed used to have a very weak early game, but they nerfed early game ADCs and supports so much that her early game is now passable.
Also, Vayne's early game is actually very strong if she is used at top lane. Constant harass if you are melee, you can't even farm. And what is worse, you can't even outscale her. Thankfully Vayne is not a popular top laner.
4th3t0s20 votesBoTRK entered the meta, and Randuins got nerfed, this is more what started this craziness, not her kit
Fadedpf6 votesBork also got 2 buffs
4th3t0s1 votesWhat I mean though, hp % shred anti-tank itemization should have never became mainstream on the adc role; remember Madreds? Randuins losing the movespeed debuff on hit just let vayne (due to her passive+ult buff) skyrocket on top of BoTRK (the active slow) being introduced. Hopefully with the AP item overhaul they'll give AD items a closer look as well.
Fadedpf1 votesMaybe tone down borks damage to 6% hp. Or buff randuins active.
WhaiSoSerious1 votesBoTRK entered the meta, and Randuins got nerfed, this is more what started this craziness, not her kit
She was always a very strong pick. People are just barely figuring it out. I knew it from day 1.
Knight SoIaire 1 votesif this would be the case ... then other champions would reach her level due to those changes
yet the fact is that vayne has a rather unique kit ... and this is the outcome
Kuroi867 votesWeak, no.
Abusable.
To say weak makes people think it'll be an easy lane.
This is true for no champ.
Many champs however have laning phases that give you openings where you can take advantage and get an early lead, hence you can abuse their early game.
O Fallen Scholar1 votesVayne isn't particularly strong in the early game but let's get one thing straight: Vayne is nowhere near as weak as people say she is early either. So many safety nets, self-peel, and mobility for the laning phase it just completely invalidates her supposedly "weak" early game.
I also hate the fact that no matter how early it is in the game she can stun you from the middle of goddamn lane for a free kill. Some "weak" early game. I know people will say "Well don't stand near walls, idiot." Fact is that the range and knockback on her condemn is so long you don't even have to be near a wall. Not to mention the fact that if you catch her in the jungle it's a free stun for her regardless of where you stand and you're dead.
Says person with Kalista icon.
Colonel k12 votesAgreed. And Vayne has weaknesses in the late game as well. Most notably that she is still a single target champion and has no ability to increase her range beyond 550. So it works both ways. Just because you are 6 item Vayne does in no way mean you are always going to be more useful than the enemy ADC in a late game team fight.
Erockandroll10 votesVayne is too strong early for her late game, for one reason, and one reason only.
She can first build BotRK.
She is strong in a duel kit wise. And on top of that. Being able to build LS first item, makes it extremely difficult to beat her in the extended poke. Leaving you little option except try and all in her. Yer her passive, her Q, and BotRK active, almost guaranties that you won't be able to run.
This is more of a rant. Last game I fought against her, I was playing as Trist. A champ who was once complained about for her self peel. Yet her ult and W offered little help to actually get a vayne off me.
iamthegoatofwar3 votesis LS really short for life steal in league...? How long has that been a thing cause i've been around since season 3 and it took me a few minutes to figure out what you meant hahaha.
Anidan2 votesI don't necessarily think she's too strong early game; I think the problem is that, if you look at the past (or if you were present, I don't personally know) anyone considered a lane bully got nerfed. Graves has been nerfed, Corki has been nerfed, Lucian has been nerfed, many bully supports, etc.. Vayne would be just fine if they let lane bullies actually be lane bullies in the bottom lane, but every time they do people complain on the forums that an ADC, a champion who is naturally going to be strong late game, is able to excel in the early game. This has fostered a situation in which people like Vayne, who would hate to be against an actual lane bully, have a safe haven to reach their late-game mostly unchecked.
I honestly think the problem is less to do with Vayne and more to do with the balance philosophies of the game itself allowing someone like Vayne to have a poor early game be acceptable by way of making everyone who could contest her equally bad because of the scaling nature of the class. This is like if Spectre (DotA2) had her godly late-game and poor early-game combo remain intact, but every lane bully was mostly knocked down to her level because otherwise it's "oppressive."
VardenSalad3 votesIt's like everyone forgot that the only reason we had Tristana abusing teams in competitive for a year was the fact that Graves, Corki, Draven, Lucian all got nerfed and IE rush became a thing instead of BT.
The cycle is as follows: "My hypercarry is getting abused in lane" -> Nerf lane bullies -> "Why are hypercarries able to make it through lane?" -> Nerf hypercarries -> "All ADCs are too weak" -> Item reworks or item buffs
Rinse, repeat for literally the entirety of League's lifespan.
9kPluzZ1 votesList of adcs that first build bork:
Erockandroll3 votesList of adcs that first build bork:
Vayne and twitch are really the only ones who would do though.
You would completely Miss Ezreal's power spikes, should you not get Tri Force as a first or second item.
And trist won't rush BotRK ever sense her E change. You want raw AD first for her massive tower destroying potential.
Harrys Nut Shack5 votesSolution to Vayne is increasing the mana cost on her tumble so she can't trade with empowered auto attacks every few seconds and to have condemn stun duration scale with rank. It's way too much to have such a strong AA based champion have such a long stun that also has enormous damage, especially with only 1 point in it. Her farming is among the most reliable in the game thanks to her near instant missile speed and attack animation and this further helps her in the laning phase.
Her weak early game really doesn't exist. She'll lose an all in until she has a few points in silver bolts if she doesn't condemn you into a wall, otherwise she's by far the strongest ADC.
Mystic Buttthole2 votes
Lugg3 votesDon't forget 
ChaosThief22 votes"Fizz is weak in the early game"
proceeds to 100/0 you at level 3
SouL1ess2 votesHe was never weak in the early game and people stating it, as well as people quoting it, aren't very knowledgeable on Fizz.
MohawkBird6 votes[deleted]
NERDSMASHER50011 votesLevel 3 is a bit of an overstatement.
no it isn't lol
Anidan5 votesAs a person who loves to play Fizz and doesn't hate playing against him: If you are getting 100-0'd at level 3 by Fizz, you are doing something very terribly wrong. There's not even much else to say about that, because everything that led to getting killed at level 3 by a Fizz was probably wrong.
He can chunk you, yes, but most people can do that at level 3. However, for him to actually kill you requires an actual AA investment on his part that you have to practically let him do.
Lugg1 votesThe problem is that fizz can chunk you and barely take any damage in return due to Playful Trickster. It may be the strongest ability in the game and it's on a stupid low CD. They could literally double the CD and it would still be one of the strongest in the game. At level 3, only 2-3 champions can actually trade with fizz.
The Lexer3 votesYou havn't played Fizz before have you? His Playful/Trickster has a rather lengthy cooldown at the earlier levels before getting cdr and it also has a pretty hefty mana cost.
Anidan3 votesPlus I'd argue that, while a strong skill, it may not actually be the strongest. It's not like when Veigar's E was on tier with ultimates. It's a great ability for Fizz, given his theme and playstyle, but it's probably not the best non-ultimate in the game.
Then again, opinions. I suppose we all have them, don't we? I probably shouldn't attack him over his own.
Lugg2 votesYes, and Veigar's E was nerfed. The only other ability in the game that may be on par with Fizz's is Yasou's Wind Wall. I can't think of anything else at the moment that is as powerful as those two.
Lugg1 votesAt level 1 it has a 16 second CD and costs 90 mana. In comparison, Yasou's Wind Wall has a CD of 26 seconds and it only affects projectile attacks, Fizz's affects all attacks.
NERDSMASHER50012 votesAs a person who loves to play Fizz and doesn't hate playing against him: If you are getting 100-0'd at level 3 by Fizz, you are doing something very terribly wrong. There's not even much else to say about that, because everything that led to getting killed at level 3 by a Fizz was probably wrong.
He can chunk you, yes, but most people can do that at level 3. However, for him to actually kill you requires an actual AA investment on his part that you have to practically let him do.
bro we're talking about Ryze here
Anidan1 votesIt uh... It didn't look like it when the person you directly responded to was talking about Fizz, as was the person he responded to and the person that the latter responded to, and you made no mention of Ryze. So, given that knowledge I talked about Fizz.
The Lexer1 votesIt depends how loosely you use 100/0.
chipndip11 votesDon't forget
Jinx's early game is kinda lousy up until level 4 where she starts getting more poke range. Her real early game is real bad, though.
Lugg1 votesJinx's early game is not real bad by any account. She has very long poke with Fishbones and safety with Flame Chompers. Her early game is MUCH better than Twitch's and her end game is better as well.
Rabid Husky3 votesvaynes w is just way to much i dont mind it if it wasnt true damage or if it wasnt % hp damage seriously atleast with champs like kogmaw or varus get mr and your hp is safe with her no way get all the hp and armor you want it does nothing save your gold fools get some 
but even then crying wont save you! and as for ryze atleast silencing does have some use but ya his new passive is just nothing but death
Jari1 votesvaynes w is just way to much i dont mind it if it wasnt true damage or if it wasnt % hp damage seriously atleast with champs like kogmaw or varus get mr and your hp is safe with her no way get all the hp and armor you want it does nothing save your gold fools get some
It's true damage you need to get three straight auto's in to get. And besides tanks, it really doesn't do that much. If you're playing a squishy and she auto'd you three times, I'm pretty sure those auto'd did more than the true damage.
Rabid Husky3 votesits still %hp true damage not a set amount and thats also true lol if she lands 3 hits on a squishy your prob already dead but its a bit ridiculous that thats even something to consider if it was true damage alright if it was %hp that scaled with ap or somethin alright but the point is it isnt manageable unlike varus or kogmaw where ya its % hp but its magic damage
Jari1 votes
She's auto attack based completely minus her E. These hit her harder than you might think. And more to the point, I never saw these until 
came down there with her. So it is the W that's the problem, or the item? Or would you prefer they just gut both because that's all people seem to want.
Rabid Husky1 votesconsulted the wiki i was kinda wrong i thaught it did like 15% hp damage its up to 60 true with 8% that is a bit more manageable sorry dont play vayne i just see her every game and as a adc that % seems crazy at points anyway i was wrong but its still somethin to think about since no other adc does that much true damage with % atleast poppys q has a limit when vayne doesnt
Catastrop2 votesLevel 3 Ryze is kind of pushing it, considering he runs out of mana easily if he harasses too much pre Tear. That's usually around level 5-6 where he can 100-0 you once he gets at least two passives up or he initiates with Ult and passive. Vayne on the other hand lacks any meaningful wave clear that early on, so supports generally can use the many windows when she goes to last hit to harass a bit. You can too if you're playing a Cait or a Draven, since they can either out range her or just chip off big chunks of hp.
Corrupto1232 votesso you complain about vayne but not about kalista?
Phoenix Kotori 4 votesso you complain about vayne but not about kalista?
Kalista was nerfed at least; vayne hasn't been.
SoMNia1 votesThe entire point of this thread is to criticize late game hypercarries also having a strong early game. Kalista's late game has always been weak, and it just got weaker.
Corrupto1231 votesThe entire point of this thread is to criticize late game hypercarries also having a strong early game. Kalista's late game has always been weak, and it just got weaker.
Oh really? What about Jinx? No one talks about her? Easy laning with so much CC, also gets tons of damage in form of steroids. Oh yeah, has a global execute on her too which does good amount of AOE damage.
Nerf JInx, then you can complain about Vayne.
SoMNia1 votesJinx has no escape unless she gets a kill, and she has either high range OR high DPS, not both. WITHOUT her steroids, she has the lowest base attack speed and growth of any ADC by a significant margin. Vayne is much scarier, and definitely more qualified as a late game hypercarry than Jinx. And for the record, I'M not complaining about Vayne. I was just pointing out that you missed the purpose of the post in your attempt to criticize it. Kalista's not a hypercarry. Neither is Jinx.
Corrupto1231 votesJinx has no escape unless she gets a kill, and she has either high range OR high DPS, not both. WITHOUT her steroids, she has the lowest base attack speed and growth of any ADC by a significant margin. Vayne is much scarier, and definitely more qualified as a late game hypercarry than Jinx. And for the record, I'M not complaining about Vayne. I was just pointing out that you missed the purpose of the post in your attempt to criticize it. Kalista's not a hypercarry. Neither is Jinx.
I never said Jinx is a hyper carry. I meant that each ADC has a clear weakness. Jinx has no clear weakness, while Vayne most definitely does.
SoMNia1 votesJinx's weakness is a lack of mobility outside of short windows after she wins a fight. And again, that has nothing to do with the expressed reason this thread was started, so why are you bringing it up here? The topic of discussion is champions whose core identity is that of a damage dealer who presents a massive threat in the late game, but who also have dominant early game performance. I don't necessarily agree that Vayne's early game is that strong, but you're not even addressing that. You're just bring up champions who don't fit that description at all, and suggesting you'd rather talk about them. Kalista and Jinx are off-topic here. If you want to discuss them, you should probably start a new thread, rather than trying to derail this one.
Phoenix Kotori 2 votesI was watching a plat ranked game and Ryze literally 2 vs 1'd an udyr and the enemy midlaner for a double kill when he had nothing but tear oh and he killed udyr in about 1 second flat.
He needs gutting.
