Like, Lulu mid, or Sol jungle, or Poppy jungle, or anything "off-meta" like that, why is it such an issue to play champs in various roles, to the extent that Riot nerfs champs to force them back into whatever role they're "supposed" to be in? Why does it matter?
Yago2 votesThe community overreacts to off-meta picks because sheeple is a real thing. Humans are social creatures, we're prone to hive mind. Otherwise, some off-meta picks are bad. Some are so unexpected that even if they do well, people don't understand how it could work.
Riot nerfs off-roles because, sometimes, they end up cancer. A good example is AP Yi. A long time ago, before his rework, AP Yi was considered mostly a troll build done in Dominion. Then it rose to prominence in competitive, because he has a 1.0 AP ratio on his Alpha Strike with I believe around 300 base damage, and a /5.0/ AP ratio on his heal.
So basically, he'd press Q, it'd bounce to you (because the bounce range was MUCH higher than it is presently), and you'd lose 1/3 of your max HP. And his CDs reset if he got a kill, so all he had to do was go into a teamfight, Q, Zhonya's/W, Q, and then he turned into a point-click literally unavoidable Katarina.
They didn't nerf AP Yi out of existence because he was off-meta. They did it because it was bullshit.
Solo-lane Lulu is an abomination. Because she is a support, she has the utility to win lanes. When she is alone, this cannot be counter-balanced with the enemy support, and instead, you end up spending the vast majority of the lane phase being kited, nuked, hard CC'd, and then she shields when you attempt to trade with her. And then she proceeds to all-in and kill you repeatedly if you fall behind. And, again, it's virtually impossible for you to NOT fall behind.
At least, when solo-lane Lulu is any good.
Mysticman892 votesRiot doesn't nerf champs to prevent 'off-meta' play.
They generally balance around a particular role or two (lulu being tricky since they are trying to support her as both a solo laner and support, but it's quite hard to strike a balance where they're viable at both), but if someone ends up used in an alternative role, then they won't care, and indeed they're likely to be happy to see it. That said, there has to be counterplay to it (unlike many tank-assassins for awhile, or janna mid a few seasons ago), and it can't be so strong as to crowd out the other picks for whatever role, otherwise they step in with nerfs.
For example they acknowledge ziggs bot as a thing, and are perfectly fine with it with no current intent to nerf since it isn't crowding out normal bot lane picks, and it can certainly be played around. They'll keep an eye on it, but it'll probably not be a major factor in any ziggs buffs/nerfs in the future. However, if ziggs mid for some reason needs nerfs or buffs in the future, then they'll probably do so. If those nerfs kill bot lane ziggs in the process, than so it goes as an unintended side effect, but they balance around mid ziggs and mid ziggs may have needed the nerfs. Alternatively if mid ziggs gets buffs, but those buffs end up pushing bot lane ziggs into pick/ban status, then they might need to do some nerfs specifically to bot lane ziggs, since at that point it would be crowding out other picks.
Mira Arya Enthe1 votesRiot is big on enforcing the meta anymore.
Shonjl3 votes[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hasvE1X9,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-13T04:50:07.233+0000)
Riot is big on enforcing the meta anymore.
Which is funny since their biggest lie, erm I mean claim they have is they don't want to enforce meta at all.
Sogreth1 votesBecause they don't preform as well?
Why gimp yourself and your team on purpose? Stop being so selfish.
sheldonbunny1 votesLulu mid isn't off meta. Lulu has successfully been support, mid, and top for ages now. An off meta pick would be adc lulu, which can work, though only situationally.
Edit: The downvote trolls are here, I see. Have fun, boys. Kappa
PhantomGG1 votesI get what you are saying, but the examples you are listing are actually completely common.
Poppy jungle was played tons of times in the LCS LuLu has always been a mid/top laner for her scaleings are amazing When Sol was first released many people thought he was going to be a jungler and not a mid laner because of how strong his ganks were
as for why you say. I get pretty pissed, and the big root of that is because of the statistics.
if you have a top lane teemo on your team, if you are a normal player, you immediately begin to cringe, same when you have a master yi or a Riven on your team.
You are use to those players going 0 and 5 during lane phase, you are use to them being toxic in chat, and your just use to them being defensive pricks.
The hostility only comes from the fact those people have a bad track record.
TheFallenShaw1 votesYour confusing role and lane positons ole bud. Role is tank, fighter, suppot ect... they arnt the same as position and riot doesn't care about meta. They care about balance. The positions exist because that's the spot where you champion can excel the best. Wanna play vayne support. Go for it, but you and the ADC will be fighting for cs, and generally be over run because players on the other team will steam role you with the better gold income. By the time your half build they will be full build and a adc's worse nightmare is cc focus fire, which two adcs wont have.
Same with playing this Vayne top I've seen recently. Why is that bad? Because someone like Vi can walk up and press R and your dead. You will have no way to get away or survive. Top will snowball you instantly. Now why is playing such a big deal? Probally bc your playing ranked and people care about their rank, or just maybe the 4 other team mates you have don't want to play a game where the enemy is 3 levels up and 1500 gold ahead lets not even talk towers or how the vayne that just fed the Quinn, riven, or darus just roamed mid for a 3v1 gank then to bot and slaughtered them bc you couldn't understand why the meta exist.
Anyway theres your answer. I'm bronze and even understand these things.
My Gender Varies1 votesLulu mid, or Sol jungle, or Poppy jungle
These things are fine but the moment you go ww mid is where we have a problem.
Oh shit nvm https://gyazo.com/6e6779f49232e1135ba8b38331ca42c8
IS OP
TheFallenShaw1 votesI saw a garen support and varus jungle yesterday js
My Gender Varies1 votesI think I saw that shit in LCK
PermabannedGaren1 votesLike, Lulu mid, or Sol jungle, or Poppy jungle, or anything "off-meta" like that, why is it such an issue to play champs in various roles, to the extent that Riot nerfs champs to force them back into whatever role they're "supposed" to be in? Why does it matter?
Lulu mid was nerfed because it was incredibly obnoxious and pick or ban in the LCS.
Poppy and Sol have never been nerfed due to their jungle play. At best, the nerfs aimed at their main roles might have made their off-meta roles not viable, but that's fine. It is not up to Riot to make off-meta picks work.
They don't give a single shit that Ryze goes top and mid (or jungle in high elo sometimes? Is that still a thing?), or that Yasuo is a mid laner who transitioned to top, or that Kayle can top, mid, or jungle, or that Wukong is almost as much of a jungler as he is a top laner, or that Brand has essentially become a support, or that Gangplank can go mid.
They generally only care when there is something fundamentally wrong with the champion going in that position (jungle Alistar was a monster that casually dove your turret and tanked a billion shots back when turrets matter).
BlueBilberry1 votesSpeaking of Lulu mid - don't be surprised if you see her heading to mid or being another "mage ADC carry" (like Ziggs) if the upcoming patch comes through. (Q buff coming.)
Quepha1 votesSol jungle
Not an issue, just a build that wasn't very good or supported to begin with and ended up being downright bad after balance changes targeted at his main role
Poppy jungle
Same deal as sol jungle
Lulu mid
This, however, was something that was specifically targeted for nerfs because solo lane Lulu (similar to solo lane Janna and Soraka from days long past) only technically qualifies as playing the game during the lane phase. She is out there in a lane, there is a player at the helm controlling her, and players are last-hitting creeps, but that's really the maximum extent of excitement during the lane phase. Lulu does not need gold to be useful, so if the enemy starts to zone her she just backs off and misses a few creeps and nothing of consequence happens. If the jungler shows up to try to gank her, she just ccs the jungler and backs off and nothing of consequence happens. The lane just ends up being two people waiting around for team fights to happen so Lulu can spam her abilities on a carry and then take a nap while her team strolls to victory.
GigaPube1 votesthis is definitely one of those times where it can definitely go either way, so then its pretty much up to riot to decide and nobody should complain unless they have something important and worthwhile to say, like....mundo should be support cos hes a doctor and he has good peel and poke and skirmishing and whatever, so he fits the role in a strategically adequate manner with his kit, and also thematically based on his prestigious title.
