Did we ever talk about how Riot decided for us which runes we used to take?

The Ecdysiast··20 votes·8,810 views

What I mean is, when they did all the base stat compensation buffs for Runes Reforged, they made changes based on what they thought we should've taken based on class, not personal preference: that every AD champs only got compensation for the Marks, and similarly glyphs for AP, that all mages got a little health instead of the 9 armor, that you aren't allowed to decrease your time spent dead, health regen, crit chance, crit damage, or cdr, that no one gets any MR, and that picking any kind of defense or Dangerous Game means your damage is lowered or you get AS you likely don't need.

I liked to bring the 28% AS or 33% crit damage runes. But now bringing the Lethal Tempo usually puts you at a disadvantage against someone bringing Press the Attack, and there are no crit-based runes whatsoever.

I'm not really calling for any changes to be made based on this. But what does everyone else think? Are there things you used to do, like bring crit damage, that new runes simply don't have any replacement for?

Side note: This is a likely factor in why Zed and Talon are more annoying than they used to be. We don't even have an option to bring armor mid lane.

28 Comments

deadlychuck14 votes

Yeah back when the system was announced, and then everyone started downvoting my posts because "riot knows what they're doing" and "But it's so shiny and new it has to be better"

It's called emergent gameplay and riot has systematically removed it from the game.

Edge of Daybreak3 votes

They didn't make it based on what they thought they just looked at the statistics of what the majority of players took. If say 90% of a playerbase for a champion took the same thing it's safe to say that's what you should compensate around. I also don't think many people even used the other niche runes much. Tbh being able to take crit in runes seemed so weird because when you got a crit off of a 1% chance it wasn't a good time for the guy who just got hit with that. I personally would run full lethality because id rather have more damage later than have flat ad.

The Ecdysiast3 votes

{quoted}

They didn't make it based on what they thought they just looked at the statistics of what the majority of players took. If say 90% of a playerbase for a champion took the same thing it's safe to say that's what you should compensate around. I also don't think many people even used the other niche runes much. Tbh being able to take crit in runes seemed so weird because when you got a crit off of a 1% chance it wasn't a good time for the guy who just got hit with that. I personally would run full lethality because id rather have more damage later than have flat ad.

Well, 10% is a very significant amount for a playerbase of millions. And it was extremely skewed, considering the fact you couldn't change them in champ select. That means if you weren't absolutely certain you were going to get to play Yasuo, you have no choice but to pick a Mage if you only have 2 pages.

Edge of Daybreak1 votes

I can't really know how people with few pages handled it because I had all of them but Iirc riot stated that they had to go with something and while certain niche cases were going to be left behind it's not really worth preserving in the new system.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

I can't really know how people with few pages handled it because I had all of them but Iirc riot stated that they had to go with something and while certain niche cases were going to be left behind it's not really worth preserving in the new system.

But my point in the main body of the post was that it wasn't niche cases who were left behind. Many people opted for armor, not health, but all mages only got health. Likewise with MR, which means ADCs who face up against mage supports take more damage.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Because removing runes and making set base stats makes it possible to balance classes of champions against specific damage types to exactly how much they want them to be vulnerable or tanky vs that damage type.

If a mage was against a Zed, they would ALWAYS take the armor seals, 100%. The problem with this is that if this is what's always happening and AD Assassins underperform because of it, mages' armor across the board would be nerfed to where armor runes were 100% necessary.

Same goes for ADCs against heavy poke magic damage supports. They either had to take MR or just suffered for not taking it. Now they don't have the option to but their base stats are balanced in a way that Riot sees fit to be sufficient enough vs poke supports and if it isn't, they can alter base stats instead of requiring players to "freely choose to" opt into MR runes.

The problem with choice is essentially that the strongest choice will crowd out other options and force Riot into balancing it to where you absolutely need to take the strongest choice. And that's exactly what happened with old Runes.

So essentially, there never was any choice in old runes, there was only what was best and that's what champions were balanced for.

That's why most junglers had to take full AS pages but now the ones that needed it just gained bonus AS at level 1 and can spec into Precision if they still need any.

New Runes offer slight base stat alteration rather than the more definitive huge base stat alteration that old runes allowed and it actually works out better this way.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

Because removing runes and making set base stats makes it possible to balance classes of champions against specific damage types to exactly how much they want them to be vulnerable or tanky vs that damage type.

If a mage was against a Zed, they would ALWAYS take the armor seals, 100%. The problem with this is that if this is what's always happening and AD Assassins underperform because of it, mages' armor across the board would be nerfed to where armor runes were 100% necessary.

Same goes for ADCs against heavy poke magic damage supports. They either had to take MR or just suffered for not taking it. Now they don't have the option to but their base stats are balanced in a way that Riot sees fit to be sufficient enough vs poke supports and if it isn't, they can alter base stats instead of requiring players to "freely choose to" opt into MR runes.

The problem with choice is essentially that the strongest choice will crowd out other options and force Riot into balancing it to where you absolutely need to take the strongest choice. And that's exactly what happened with old Runes.

So essentially, there never was any choice in old runes, there was only what was best and that's what champions were balanced for.

That's why most junglers had to take full AS pages but now the ones that needed it just gained bonus AS at level 1 and can spec into Precision if they still need any.

New Runes offer slight base stat alteration rather than the more definitive huge base stat alteration that old runes allowed and it actually works out better this way.

Well that's not looking at the bigger picture. Sure, you could take the armor against Zed at mid, but you'd be more vulnerable to the other enemies' magic damage because of it. It's a trade-off, whereas now you don't get the option. You WILL be more vulnerable to Zed than before, and Electrocute+the rest of the Domination tree WILL get nerfs because of it. (as they did)

Z3Sleeper1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hUXVk53e,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-22T05:36:59.192+0000)

You WILL be more vulnerable to Zed than before, and Electrocute+the rest of the Domination tree WILL get nerfs because of it. (as they did)

No, you could, it's not guaranteed. It all depends how they balance it. That's the point, they can now do class-wide balancing.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

No, you could, it's not guaranteed. It all depends how they balance it. That's the point, they can now do class-wide balancing.

It is, since nerfs to the runes are the only way to do quick class-wide balances.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Base stats. Like they did at the beginning of the season, like they've been doing countless times to junglers adding on bonus AS at level 1, like they did with the mage update, like they just did with the ADC update.

Like those. And ofcourse, Runes are another lever they can use for this.

Like, you can't just say it is if they could easily just up base armor by 100 cuz they can do that. So like I said, it's all in how they balance it.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Base stats. Like they did at the beginning of the season, like they've been doing countless times to junglers adding on bonus AS at level 1, like they did with the mage update, like they just did with the ADC update.

Like those. And ofcourse, Runes are another lever they can use for this.

Like, you can't just say it is if they could easily just up base armor by 100 cuz they can do that. So like I said, it's all in how they balance it.

That's still changing every champion individually. Classes don't have one set of base stats.

Pika Fox3 votes

Crit damage runes were always bad. You got a buff just by having them removed from the game. Sad truth is that most of the fun build rune pages were god awful in practice (rip 20+% crit level 1 GP)

The Ecdysiast3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hUXVk53e,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-08-22T04:42:25.451+0000)

Crit damage runes were always bad. You got a buff just by having them removed from the game. Sad truth is that most of the fun build rune pages were god awful in practice (rip 20+% crit level 1 GP)

Not at all. I'll admit that, when ADC items were actually balanced (read: "before the Marksman Class Update"), crit damage runes hardly increased your DPS. But once it was quite easier to get 90% crit, they became far stronger.

Pika Fox2 votes

And flat AD or arpen runes were still infinitely better.

Yokkers3 votes

I miss the old runes, killed off quite a few of my build variants.

Need Gold 4 Tent3 votes

i miss my 1% crit.

RyzeTheSmurfMage2 votes

Ryze gets ANOTHER nerf for no reason other than a build path being strong for him, and almost no Ryze player uses that build path so we basically got a hard nerf for no reason.

Lordk0z2 votes

I used to run a pair of CDR/level quints to cap out my CDR on my Bruiser builds (I'd run item 3078 or item 3071 with boots, item 3053 an armor item and an MR item based on the situation, plus item 3193 because 10 times out of 9, I'm the only tank on the team so I have to build for maximum resilience over things that would have worked better for my role like item 3800, but still let me keep the maximum cooldown rate on key abilities. It's a huge advantage when you can't rely on having a juggernaut plus a warden or tank on your team for a full frontline.

Jaspers2 votes

I'm not sure how their decision was made. A standard rune page had 9 armour and 7-9 MR. No one got any more MR and everyone but mages got armour boost. Mages did get a slight HP at level 1 boost and better HP growth.

I'd prefer 9 armour and MR on most of these mages, 8 of which are below 20 at the start of the game, no wonder level 2 Sudden Impact Talon was so powerful when Sudden impact ignored 10 armour. :P

DaCurtis2 votes

You're telling me. As a Mordekaiser main, the stats he was given was fucking nothing.

The Ecdysiast4 votes

{quoted}

You're telling me. As a Mordekaiser main, the stats he was given was fucking nothing.

Oh wow. I didn't even know it was this bad. They didn't even give him the full 9 armor. Bullshit.

DaCurtis1 votes

Preach.

flibitydoo1 votes

I used to run health regen quints on both mundo and soraka to offset health costs.

And also I used to run a standard AD runepage, except swap out the AD quints with additional flat armour quints on top lane tanks such as poppy or sion to deal with darius/riven/yasuo/pantheon/jayce/other ad lane bully tops. The armour wasn't just mitigated dmg, it was also giving me extra value out of potions too so I could stay in lane on my terms.

Also being able to run attackspeed on shen jungle which let shen jungle be an actual thing which it isn't a thing now because the runes don't let me get attackspeed to fix his clear without picking bad a keystone for shen.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

{quoted}

I used to run health regen quints on both mundo and soraka to offset health costs.

And also I used to run a standard AD runepage, except swap out the AD quints with additional flat armour quints on top lane tanks such as poppy or sion to deal with darius/riven/yasuo/pantheon/jayce/other ad lane bully tops. The armour wasn't just mitigated dmg, it was also giving me extra value out of potions too so I could stay in lane on my terms.

Also being able to run attackspeed on shen jungle which let shen jungle be an actual thing which it isn't a thing now because the runes don't let me get attackspeed to fix his clear without picking bad a keystone for shen.

Well, while I said the closest thing is Tempo, that's not exactly correct. If you wanna jungle Shen, you'll get a 20% AS if you take Inspiration+Precision (or P+I). Problem is, Shen didn't get AD to compensate for the rune changes.

Light of Madness1 votes

Full Crit dmg runes on GP.... Hard early but late insane, was fun.

TwitchTv AOrval1 votes

I used to take 24 lethality runes lvl 1 with +10 from masteries so id have 34 Lethality level 1. I miss those days.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

[{quoted}](name=TwitchTv AOrval,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hUXVk53e,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-08-26T07:53:53.304+0000)

I used to take 24 lethality runes lvl 1 with +10 from masteries so id have 34 Lethality level 1. I miss those days.

But then they made Lethality scale with level.

TwitchTv AOrval1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Uber Deer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hUXVk53e,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2018-08-26T10:27:40.237+0000)

But then they made Lethality scale with level.

Yeah but I was fine with that. I only liked taking it because it made my mid game really good which is what i need on jayce

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