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@Riot Great job nerfing Sejuani!

Koechophe··22 votes·3,211 views
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Sejuani, a jungler who is beyond outclassed in the new jungle and struggles heavily to clear without dying (to say nothing for ganking capacity) is getting nerfed on the PBE.

Here are the exact changes

Sejuani -Arctic Assault (Q) damage changed to 80/125/170/215/260 (+.4 AP) from 40/70/100/130/180 (+.4 AP)(+4/6/8/10/12% of Target's Max HP) -Flail of the Northern Winds (W) initial hit damage changed to 4/6/8/10/12% (+3% per 100 AP) of Target's Max HP from 40/60/80/100/120 (+.3 AP). -Flail of the Northern Winds (W) AoE damage changed to 40/70/100/130/160 (+.6 AP)(+4/6/8/10/12% total Health) from 80/120/160/200/240(+.6 AP)(+10% Bonus HP) -Permafrost (E) cooldown lowered to 10/9/8/7/6 from 11 -Permafrost (E) damage lowered to 60/90/120/150/180 (+.5 AP) from 60/110/160/210/260 (.5 AP) -Permafrost (E) slow duration reduced to 1.5 at all ranks from 1.5/1.75/2/2.25/2.5

And here's some calculations: -Q Gains 80 base damage and loses 12% of enemy hp scaling -W loses 120 base damage and gains 12% of enemy hp scaling (net loss of 40 damage) -W loses 80 damage and gains 12% base health and 2% bonus health (Bonus of 265 damage at max level, net bonus of 185 damage, mixed with net loss from on hit and her E becomes negligable) -Permafrost CD lowered, damage lowered by 80, cd duration lowered by up to 5 seconds (To be exact, uptime previously was 2.5/11 = 22% of the time, 1.5/6 = 25% of the time, net increase of 3% uptime of the slow)

Many people wouldn't perceive these as nerfs, but they are, for several reasons.

  1. This shifts more power towards end game. At most levels until end game, her net loss in base damage (which is compensated in theory by switching from bonus health to total health) is heavily reduced, which hurts her already-tenuous early game and clear abilities
  2. This hurts sej's burst a lot actually which will harm her ganking capacity. The recast on permafrost won't take place in most ganks, whereas the additional 1 second slow is going to be gone.
  3. The reduced CD on permafrost and reduced damage/slow actually hurts her mana costs a lot, which is going to be pretty evident upon playing her. She already feels too mana hungry for the tank that she is.
  4. Increase in the slow duration will likewise hurt a lot, even though it's lower cd, the longer slow is more powerful.

Ultimately, sej has issues in the early game and Riot decided to nerf her early game even more.

50 Comments

Learn 2 Swim24 votes

theres been about 7 junglers nerfed in the past couple months but fear not! lee sin has been untouched!

Koechophe6 votes

I agree that riot has this strange tendency to ignore him over other junglers who get slaughtered with nerfs (Hello almost completely unviable Evelynn and Elise)

Ayame Isaki2 votes

theres been about 7 junglers nerfed in the past couple months but fear not! lee sin has been untouched!

You have the be LeeSin or MasterYi in the new jungle. Champs like Sejuani and Evelynn are relics of a bygone era; one in which game balance wasn't about big plays and overloaded kits.

I still rock Eve though. She is not unplayable. She is however a champ you play if the rest of your team is real good. You won't be anyone's hero playing Eve.

Omega3601 votes

You have the be LeeSin or MasterYi in the new jungle. Champs like Sejuani and Evelynn are relics of a bygone era; one in which game balance wasn't about big plays and overloaded kits.

I still rock Eve though. She is not unplayable. She is however a champ you play if the rest of your team is real good. You won't be anyone's hero playing Eve.

I'm thinking Warwick is more evil in the new jungle than anyone else.

  • He finishes first clear with full hp and perhaps using one potion at most.
  • Is almost unduelable with a item 3715 and his ultimate.
  • Is easy to farm to 6 and gank with his ultimate (with the difficulty of the new jungle, chances are by the time he hits level 6 the other jungler might not have even ganked yet).
  • Locks down priority target late-game and shreds them.

I haven't played MasterYi yet but I don't think that he has nearly as good first clears as warwick does. Also I played as XinZhao jungle one game vs LeeSin and I spent more time ganking than he did in his own jungle, him having to go back every time he cleared one side, and proceeded to go item 3713 with devourer to carry my team with 50 stacks by the time they surrendered. Lee had no impact in the game, and I took probably half of his buffs that spawned.

WooBeeWoo1 votes

I understand why everyone hates lee like he plays like an assassin early game and then tanks. But I personally as a jungle main think he is one of the best league champs there is in terms of balance (that said my thought process is that if riot could make weaker champs like him then the game would be a lot better. not that hes not way stronger than many champs). The reason is he scales with skill. Like if you are bad your lee looks meh at best and if you are good then hes super effective. I like that over people like yi that literally is one of the most point and click champs in the game.

WooBeeWoo19 votes

I'm 100% confident that no one on the balance team knows wtf they are doing. They buff adcs with items and with champs like kalista and then destroy the jungle and nerf the junglers to boot. You are literally a waste of time as a jungler now unless you take one of the two or three that can do anything and thats bullshit

EffectFX4 votes

The balance team does a good job.

Keeping in mind that ADC's were basically only existed for the ability to kill turrets at the start of the season, the balance team is not the champion creation team, and the new jungle is actually interesting and nowhere near as difficult as people make it out to be.

WooBeeWoo10 votes

Yeah... no they are doing a terrible job and adcs are insanely overtuned. I think that sieging turrets is a great role for them to fill Idk why they absolutely HAVE to be the main damage carries of the game. So much so that they overshadow every other role entirely and the new jungle is that difficult. What you might not realize is yes most champs can make a first clear back and buy but then they mostly lose effectiveness. Like wtf is the point when im running around the jungle half dead unable to gank and barely keeping up only to have a meh mid game against the adc with only an IE that can three shot me. Sure there are standout... ww... but i dont and wont play ww so..... yeah the new jungle sucks and adcs are severly overtuned and on top of it all they are the easiest role in the game why reward the easiest role with the biggest pay off. (btw nothing you ever say can make me think adcing takes more skill than jung which is supposed to deal with the whole map, top which is literally a duel that you can lose with one mistake, mid which has a ton of pressure put on it and usually the most dynamic champs, and supp that babysits the adc deals with vision etc. the adc on the other hand has to not die and right click the minions correctly most bot lane skirmishes are on the supp and jung and if the adc right clicks correctly then thats their whole job)

EffectFX3 votes

No the balance team does know what they're doing and kids are just bad at dealing with ADC's.

Except assassins and mages also do absolutely fantastic damage so I don't see them doing damage to champions as a problem. What I do realize, as that most people, you included haven't take then the time to actually test the jungle. There's A LOT of junglers out there other than WW who can clear fine, gank, farm, whatever.

I'm not an ADC main (A quick search on my champion history shows that I do play mostly bruisers), and ADC is significantly more difficult then you're making it out to be. Skill Floor/Ceiling is more based on the champions you're playing rather than the role. As a whole, yes the Jungle requires you to have a great deal more knowledge then ADC (not that ADC doesn't have at least some required knowledge such as how their character interacts with their support and how to deal with their match up).

WooBeeWoo5 votes

right cause immobile mages and full tank champs aren't unviable as an entire role... dat balance doe.....

QuantumLight2 votes

Jungle used to have 2 options, buy ff and farm to death or buy spirit stone and gank lanes.

Rito is trying to change that.

personally i like the new jg more, and i can actually sort of play it now. I buy whatever it is that gives your chilling smite and gank early. puts your team ahead so they can win on their own. if you want to carry buy the devorer enchant... its essentially the ff equivalent now.

adc is right clicking :D

WooBeeWoo1 votes

Yeah thats true old jung was constricting as well. I just think right now it ends up being even more constricting. Also as a jungle I don't want to carry in the traditional sense, like yeah if I'm Vi thats pretty reasonable to do but like with Naut I am going to go full tank. I want the ability to gank early and often to help my lanes and use that assist gold to be difficult to kill in teamfights. My version of carrying is making it so my team can't lose by making them win lane and maintaining control of the map. I genuinely love to tank, but I feel like that option is completly gone now. Like even before when I could lvl 3 gank at 3 min people still died in lane before I could get there now.... by the time I'm ready to gank I'm already getting flamed. For me the new jung added thing that just killed the champs I had new hope for and it sucks. but you are right I do hope they hit their goal and make the jung more versatile.

Sire Hippington10 votes

U fail to see one important thing:nearly all damage was shifted into W, so u only need to max one skill to get alot off damage, which boosts her ealy quite a bit. U also didn't note that W, which gained alot damage overall, is on 4sec lower cd than Q, so she gained more dps cause she can use the %health damage more often. It also helps her mana in the jungle, as she only needs W for damage, and not a Q aswell for the %dmg.

Koechophe4 votes

Right, but you're missing the fact that the base damage on her W was reduced which was replaced by % of max hp, so early on her W does less damage.

Also, it hurts her mana because you have to spam permafrost more.

Sire Hippington3 votes

The breakingpoint with old damage is by 1000hp, so vs big junglmonsters u will do more damage, and past lvl 6 also vs most champions. Q also got more base damage, so in a gank where u usually won't do more than Q+W+E the damage stays even.

the W dot also breaks even at 1000hp on seju, so at lvl 6 u should already be at more damage than befor.

The E spam also ony counts for lategame fights, in which u usually have enough mana from base and evt FH or iceborn. U won't be able to do more than 1 in most ganks, and useing it in the jungle without bluebuff is rather stupid anyway.

Khell DarkWolf2 votes

Q also got more base damage, so in a gank where u usually won't do more than Q+W+E the damage stays even.

the W dot also breaks even at 1000hp on seju, so at lvl 6 u should already be at more damage than befor.

The E spam also ony counts for lategame fights, in which u usually have enough mana from base and evt FH or iceborn. U won't be able to do more than 1 in most ganks, and useing it in the jungle without bluebuff is rather stupid anyway.

I'm going to repost something I've already said before:

Q Losing the %percent HP damage is going to hurt initial engagements for damage (and not punish tanks for diving your team) and also harm her clearing of jungle camps with it (% percent HP damage onto jungle camps in addition to base damage does help)

W already feels clunky because how slow it feels for her to swing the flail to even get that damage to proc onto targets. Factor that in while trying to chase someone or clearing a camp as it now has to be the first auto attack to get old Q's percent damage and have to wait 11 seconds (7 base cooldown + 4 seconds to finish swinging the flail animation to restart the cooldown which doesn't factor in a longer indirect cooldown if you don't manage to autoattack fast enough or they outrun you) as opposed to Q's 11 second cooldown that starts its cooldown refresh the moment you use it and get the damage.

For Perma Frost:

yeah, 11 seconds to 6 seconds may look great on paper but you're not factoring not just the reduced damage but it is the reduced and now static slow duration.

1.5 seconds is such a short and narrow time window for a slow, I thought the whole point for her was to be able to help peel and get targets to sit still long enough for teammates to join in.

For someone that used to be known as frosting (slowing) people down and has an ability (named after it) that enhanced it, its starting to get further and further blurred.

I would have rather seen an increase in the earlier levels of W that then scale down towards the rank 5's damage more smoothly to take the tackle early jungle clears with a little more ease but comes back to be still the same past mid game.

My biggest beef (that still is in effect since the rework) is that she used to have mediocre slow that was atleast something to aid and setup better for permafrost into peeling or sticking to a target. Old Rework had that, now all she has is her ult and a 1.5 sec slow ability?

Playing as a tank, she should have more leeway to help her team peel and get people to sit down if they are within her zone.

We're playing with a tipping point her, cause I got a feeling I already know whats going to happen if these changes make it to live.

Sire Hippington3 votes

Q loosing the % does in no way harm her jungle clear, as she gets it on W, which is ur primary clear spell. It means u don't need to spend an extra 80mana for the %dmg while also seting ur mobillity on cd.

Ws cd starts once she starts swinging the flail, not after ending the full 4sec swinging(so after landing the AA or reaktivating or after the timer runs out) which means if u land the AA, it IS on a 4sec lower cd.

I agree that W is rather clunky, but thats nothing new with that change. Sejuanys clunkiness is in fact all that keeps me from playing her. A QoL buff to her Q-AA-W combo would go a realy long way for me.

Yes, permafrost is nerfed in the early game and for ganks at higher levels, but u wouldn't max it first now anyway, so till lvl 10 nothing really changes here, and her ganks will probably still be very scary.

I'm totally with u on the lost passive slow she had befor the rework, but this again got nothing to do with the current pbe-changes. However, i would love to see a small slow on her Frost-debuff, either the old 10%, or something like 7/9/11/13/15% based on E rank.

Sire Hippington2 votes

The breakingpoint with old damage is by 1000hp, so vs big junglmonsters u will do more damage, and past lvl 6 also vs most champions. Q also got more base damage, so in a gank where u usually won't do more than Q+W+E the damage stays even.

Her damage vs non jungle pre six is slightly lower, but get's better from that point with a rather big spike at lvl 9

The E spam also ony counts for lategame fights, in which u usually have enough mana from base and evt FH or iceborn. U won't be able to do more than 1 in most ganks, and useing it in the jungle without bluebuff is rather stupid anyway.

CreationFlaw7 votes

You all forgot that W is an Auto attack reliant ability and she's slow as fuck, so if you miss your Q, which isn't actually easy shit to hit all the time, the gank is done uness you throw out your 140 second ult or some stuff. This basically destroys AP sejuani and slightly buffs jungle sejuani.

Caezium2 votes

She has more trouble clearing early too. :L

So it might not actually help her in the jungle considering she is having a lot of trouble clearing.

AtheosisX5 votes

I'm just not seeing nerfs there.

Koechophe9 votes

If you play her, you'll figure it out. Her cleartimes and jungling ability is going to get hit.

AtheosisX6 votes

Have you actually tested the changes on the PBE?

Onegarion2 votes

So you are just theory crafting then? You haven't actually tested it. You wording makes you on the same end that we are. Not testing and attempting to fathom what the true impact is. Don't assume its going to kill her clear speed if you haven't actually tested it.

LankPants3 votes

The Lv 1 Aoe damage decrease absolutely kills her clear, the Aoe now has 64 effective base damage down from 80 and any bonus HP you have increases the damage by 2/5s of what it used to.

This change could be OK if they buff the base damage on W back to around 60 or 70 or buff the lv 1 scaling from 4% to 8%.

EffectFX2 votes

Keep in mind that this is the PBE, not the "these changes are absolutely going to go through".

These changes are not as bad as you're making them out to be.

Koechophe2 votes

PBE exists to get people's opinions on changes. These are my opinions on these changes. But thank you, for the idiotic (yet compulsory) post about how no one should ever say anything about PBE changes ever because "they aren't final".

EffectFX1 votes

Did I actually say that? Let's see.

Keep in mind that this is the PBE, not the "these changes are absolutely going to go through".

Uhhh, nope.

When talking about things in the PBE, feel free to critique, just don't have a panic attack and not bother to actually do the math.

Because you should definitely actually do the math before calling something a nerf, because these changes are a buff, at least to her jungle clear. She receives a SLIGHTLY worse clear at level 1. As in like, with just base damages she loses 16 AOE damage per cast on W (this is only at level 1, since it's total health, it goes up every time she levels). The max HP on hit damage equals the old flat damage at exactly 1000 HP at all levels. Every single big jungle monster has over 1000 HP. The lowest being Raptor (old wraith camp) at 1200 HP.

In order for her current AOE damage on W to deal the same as her old (using the level 1 scaling) you need, 1000 HP. Which you will have at level 6 if you take the flat HP in masteries at the very least.

It's also worth mentioning the 40 flat damage from Sej's AOE W, was basically moved to level 1 Q. So you actually gain some damage in terms of clearing the jungle at least by level 3 (depending on which skill you take).

That all being said, you should be maxing W first, so it's going to scale a by level 9, with these current numbers, tank sejuani is going to be an enormous threat.

DropFill2 votes

They are nerfing my beloved Full AP sejuani jungle.

LankPants3 votes

It's a huge buff to AP sej, you're gaining scaling %hp damage and a more spamable e, increasing overall DPS. You might lose out if you're going DFG into Deathcap but if you go somthing like ROA into Haunting it's a huge buff to AP Sej.

DropFill2 votes

It's a huge buff to AP sej, you're gaining scaling %hp damage and a more spamable e, increasing overall DPS. You might lose out if you're going DFG into Deathcap but if you go somthing like ROA into Haunting it's a huge buff to AP Sej.

It's a buff to AP bruiser sejuani. I play FULL ap sejuani. Like a burst mage with a strong all in. She is not durable because she has to be in melee range. So using more than 1 combo is not a real scenario. This is not a buff to full AP sejuani

LankPants3 votes

I'd recommend fizz

FF12243 votes

It's a huge buff to AP sej, you're gaining scaling %hp damage and a more spamable e, increasing overall DPS. You might lose out if you're going DFG into Deathcap but if you go somthing like ROA into Haunting it's a huge buff to AP Sej.

No, it really isn't. I play AP Sej in the top lane, and with the massive base damage loss on her E, she isn't going to be able to waveclear effectively which will knock her out of viability in the top lane.

Knight Devout2 votes

10% of bonus health when no bonus health is purchased= ZERO 10% of bonus health with 2000 bonus health [HUGE INVESTMENT]=200.

4% of total health when at level 1=24 12% of total health with ZERO ITEMS AND RUNES at level 18= 264.

arctic assault cooldown 15 seconds and 80 mana costs. Flail of the northern winds cooldown : 11 seconds and 40 mana costs

If you just stop a second and look at the bigger picture, you would understand just how much better Sejuani will be.

Koechophe2 votes

Look at the calculations posted up above. I'm not arguing that this helps her end game, but it hurts her already-terrible clear times a lot, especially level 1. With these nerfs, she likely will end up being worse off because the blue golem hurts more than she does level 1.

Knight Devout2 votes

On jungle monsters, having 4% max health damage available every 10 seconds is better than 40 damage upfront. Blue Sentinel has 2000 Hp. That means she will deal 80 damage.

4% total health on a champion who has 600 base health is 24, which means her AoE decreases of only 16 (64 instead of 80), as the early health from runes is negligible (and armor works better for junglers).

If you want to argue that you liked the old one better, fine, but you can't argue that the damage has dropped significantly. Plus,

EffectFX1 votes

right cause immobile mages and full tank champs aren't unviable as an entire role... dat balance doe.....

Except the vast majority of mages and tanks are viable, including the immobile ones.

Xerath? Syndra? Orianna? Ryze? Twisted Fate? Anivia? Vlad if you don't count him as a mid/late game bruiser? Other mages are viable as well but more so as pocket picks. The first 5 I mentioned basically see constant competitive play as mid laners.

Not sure if you actually meant immobile tanks (cause that's basically Cho'Gath, Sion, Malphite who are all strong). The vast majority of tanks in general are viable.

I mean Riot basically doesn't want this to be a thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxrHmcxWvKE.

Koechophe2 votes
  1. Orianna, ryze, twisted fate and vlad all have mobility in their kit, and ryze is a top lane bruiser.
  2. Xerath is only viable because he falls into the "Extremely long ranged mid lane" catagory, much like lux.
  3. Anivia is viable? Really? She sees no competative play.
  4. Syndra is only viable because her kit is overloaded with a slow, an aoe 1.5 second stun, a knockback and a hyper-scaling ult. She still gets ripped apart by assassins though.

As far as tanks...

  1. The main "Tank" junglers include nautilus, rammus, sejuani, amumu, maoki, jarven, volibear and mundo. Mumu is significantly weaker in the new jungle, but I doubt we'll ever get to a point where his kit is considered unviable, but he's more of an AP bruiser than a tank. Maoki is now viable top mostly, you never really see him jungle. Jarven is now built with AD instead of tank. The "real" tanks (as in champions who build actual tank items) like sejuani, nautilus, rammus, volibear, zac and mundo are all suffering pretty hard in the jungle. Rammus survives by basically ignoring the fact that there is a jungle and getting fed in lanes. None of them are even close to as viable as champs like lee and warwick.
  2. Cho'gath and malphite are never seen in the jungle anymore, they're always top. Malphite as a jungler is pretty darn weak, because his clear times suck. Sion isn't a tank; he's a bruiser who just happens to be very tanky from his W.
  3. Even if you can make a case for the viability of any of the true "tank" junglers, they all are extremely underpicked and feel horrible when playing them. Compare them to champs like warwick and khazix, and you feel extremely gimped the whole way through
  4. Tank junglers are conceptually weaker because the squishy champs have just as much cc, have way more damage, have more mobility and can clear objectives faster which results in more money and less damage taken. Add that to the fact that tanks fundamentally lack any way to heal themselves, and you have a weaker class of junglers.
SmokingPuffin1 votes
  1. Orianna, ryze, twisted fate and vlad all have mobility in their kit, and ryze is a top lane bruiser.

Don't play silly semantic games.

If these champions are mobile, then Darius is mobile by the same definition. But this is an absurd conclusion, so the reasoning must be off.

  1. Even if you can make a case for the viability of any of the true "tank" junglers, they all are extremely underpicked and feel horrible when playing them.

Uh, no.

Warwick is broken due to silly item interactions. Amumu is the strongest not broken due to silly item interactions jungler. Maokai is quite powerful, with his quality sustain and quite fast clears to go with amazing-as-always ganks. Rammus is ok. Probably will continue to top solo queue win rates for quite some time. Udyr is one of the most powerful dudes in the jungle. Skarner is a guy nobody is talking about, but I'm quite impressed with his performance as an invader and duelist. Zac is so much better in the new jungle world than the old one. His sustain mechanic makes vastly more sense when you're not always at full hp.

Overall, the balance of power has shifted and it's now more tanky junglers than carry junglers doing well.

EffectFX1 votes

This was a reply to someone completely different and I have no idea why it posted here instead of directly to the guy I was talking too.

Oriana gets a small MS steroid if she walks on the her ball after a W, but doing so likely means she didn't use it for damage. Ryze has to use his ultimate to get a MS buff (still a mage). Twisted Fate isn't mobile, he has global presence but he doesn't have any useful movement mechanics when laning. Vladimir gets a small insignificant movement speed steroid when he W's, and is it turns out, the massive early game cooldown on the spell means he's not relying on the movement speed for laning.

Anivia has seen 0 competition? Oh really.

I'll give you a big hint, just because a champion isn't seen in every game of competitive play doesn't make them nonviable. I only listed mages off the top of my head that are definitely still strong. Pretty much every champion is actually viable if you take the time to learn how to use them and their match ups.

The question was whether or not tanks were viable, regardless of whether they're in the jungle or not. His statement that full tanks are non-viable is complete and utter garbage.

Sion can be VERY easily considered a tank. Durable? Check. Good base damage? Check. Lots of CC? Check. Yeah he's a tank who also happens to basically be a fighter.

I'm not talking about tank junglers, I was talking about tanks in general.

These sej changes are a massive overall buff by the way.

Khell DarkWolf1 votes

Ah yeah, just went to test it. I must have been drunk.

So confirmed it does start cool down the moment the autoattack/or triggered again to start the swing.

But I'm seeing conflicted PBE patch notes regarding the E Permafrost having Reduced scaling cooldown from 11 seconds to 11/10/9/7/6 seconds to another patch notes saying it isn't there.

Knight Devout1 votes

Aaah, the old frost <3! I'd even be happy with a 6-10% slow!

Anyway, most people are overreacting and purposefully ignoring the good aspects.

  1. using Arctic Assault on tanks just because it deals more damage it's not a viable strategy, as it drastically narrows your ability of landing Permafrost on the backline.
  2. Lower cooldown on E means that , once getting enough CDR, Permafrost has a 42% uptime.
  3. W dealing both % target total health and sejuani total health damage means that it's now a 40 mana wonder for clearing.
  4. Having Q off cd in the jungle means you can even afford Ghost instead than flash.

4.21 , I'm waiting!

MattAkhavan1 votes

I did a rundown of the changes i tested on PBE and she is over all really strong and these are a buff to her, but the only thing is the nerf to permafrost's base damage was hit to hard. the changes to q and w benifit sejuani A LOT more than you think, but again the nerfs to permafrost really hit too hard.

the rundown is here

Muted Summoner1 votes

I always maxed E before hand instead of w cause it did more damage** if your unable to get the full W hit on the target**, Provided a much better slow for ganking. Now her E Is is an afterthought like Skarners E.

Nausicäa 1 votes

Also where the fuck are the mana cost reductions. She goes oom in one camp.

Dominick Destine1 votes

At first I was excited about the changes, but the more I thought about it the more I realized it's a wave of nerfs, as OP states.

What the @#*$&#@%$ are they thinking? Sejuani is one of the weakest junglers.

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