Boards›Gameplay

"Top X challengers are mostly toplane mains"

Ahristocats··46 votes·4,025 views

NO ONE CARES

Did you ever learn how statistic works? The lower the sample is the higher the fluctuation is? If you fucking take top 10 challengers it DOESN'T MATTER AT ALL, in statistic we take like 1000 to study something , no one is going to take you seriously if you take 10 people that you choose yourself because YES taking only the challenger elo is a BIAS OF SELECTION

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias

Want to know how popular the toplane role is? ask the bloody Meddler

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/7VOAaqsF-quick-gameplay-thoughts-january-24

"One other thing worth talking about with top lane is how it changes significantly at different MMR levels. Looking at popularity for example top Lane’s the middle position in terms of popularity at almost all MMR bands, noticeably below mid and bot, but significantly above jungle and support. That trend changes at really high MMRs (top 1% or so), with mid and jungle then the two popular roles, with bot in the middle and both top and support a bit below it"

So stop **ing around and change the facts with biased stats, Toplane IS the least popular role with support in higher mmr

And just because few people among the 10 best players are toplane mains it doesn't change this fact not a slightest

49 Comments

no to toxic27 votes

But that one guy at the asian restaurant is is a toplane main so I don`t see your point with top being a unpopular role.

Ahristocats6 votes

I don't see it either

but Meddler seems to see it

EkyonKun10 votes

No brah you're wrong.

My best friend's aunt's mother's distant cousin's half-sister's ex-wife's brother-in-law said he carries in top lane, so therefore top lane isn't that bad and people are just complaining for no reason.

Diamond2Kappa10 votes

support is one of the strongest roles in the game tho [sg-poppy]

Xion The XIV2 votes

But I have heard that Supports is the worst role in the game next to Junglers! I have been lied to for YEARS!! [sg-ezreal]

Flawless Fetus3 votes

True. Not a lot of fun to play, though.

Flawless Fetus10 votes

I'm confused. Who's this post aimed at? It sounds like you're trying to make the point that top is unpopular... are people arguing that? I may be blind, but I see plenty of arguments for and against "top has (no) impact on the game". Never seen someone dispute that it's unpopular, though.

Stillname9 votes

You aren't exactly providing any conclusive evidence that toplane is in a terrible spot right now either.

According to the quote Jungler hops over top and bot for popularity at the highest mmr. It isn't really that shocking either because jungler has probably been the most influential spot in the game since it was released and mid has always been the most popular lane as well.

Now if I had to try to put into words what is really going on is that top lane play has had THE most changes in playstyle over the last few years despite every other lane getting the immediate focus of Riot.

What used to be the joke everyone would say about toplane in soloq and in to pro scene? "And here the top laners are at the 20 minute mark still on their island" That is gone from the game. Top lane used to be THE 1v1 lane. If you were winning it you got to pull attention up to your lane. You made sure that the other team had to drop what they were doing and come stop you and sometimes... you still beat them when they showed up. That is pretty much gone now.

There are some advantages to this. Top laners now have more direct impact on the game early on and don't have to rely as much on their team to not just lose before they get to push their advantage to a win. That doesn't mean the lane doesn't play out different now though.

Now if you want to win through top you have to do stuff that your champion was never designed to do. It isn't good enough to be able to win small skirmishes you have to teamfight and bruisers just aren't good in teamfights unless they are super far ahead and rolling over everything in their path.

That is why I think there are so many angry toplaners now. Riot took a playstyle that they liked and pulled it out from underneath them and now are saying "You can still win. Just not the way you like playing the game."

Hibeki5 votes

I bet you don't actually play top lane.

Stillname6 votes

You are correct. I don't play toplane I play Fortnite because this game isn't fun to play right now.

BoilTheOil1 votes

same here

Flawless Fetus4 votes

Yeah. All his post said is people don't enjoy playing top. Not once did he address the (ir) relevance of top lane. Lol.

Leonerdo5 votes

When I mention Top-lane Challengers, it's to prove the point that it is still possible to have a big impact on the game from Top lane. You can carry from Top lane.

That doesn't mean much for the overall popularity of Top lane. But if people are going to say shit like "It's impossible to carry as Top-laner. Junglers decide my lane, and ADCs decide the game. All I can do is play a tank and hope by team isn't garbage," with all the absolute language included, then I'm gonna throw down the easy disproof by giving one counterexample: "So how did the #5 Challenger player get there by playing top-lane fighters?"

Divewing6 votes

"Just play at a pro-tier level"

That's your advice...? You serious?

Leonerdo2 votes

My point is the top-lane problems are not as damning as people make them out to be, if some people can still be the best in the region while playing with those problems.

Hibeki4 votes

Except they are using the wrong solutions forced upon them to climb to that place in the first place

Every top challenger has a pocket fiora,gnar, or camille that has a higher winrate than their main that they used to climb.

People say 'oh hes a _ main" when that champion has a 50% winrate and the next highest is fiora or some shit at 70% with less games played.

No they play through the stompy elos where their skill level is massively above them with their main where they will win anyway, then they pick the degenerate laners so they can ACTUALLY climb in higher elo.

Also, just because a disproportionately low amount of people can do it, doesn't mean everything is ok.

Just because mew2king can beat pro players with pichu in melee doesn't make pichu a good character.

Leonerdo3 votes

What the fuck is wrong with playing champions when they are strong. The meta shifts, and good players know how to adapt. Sticking to the same, single main champion that you've always played is admirable, I guess, but it's never been an optimal way to play League. So don't assume you can just blind-pick your main in every game and it'll work out because they're your favorite character.

How is adapting to the meta now considered "being forced into the wrong solutions"?

Hibeki2 votes

Because they are above strong and have been broken since their founding. Fiora, Camille, and Gnar have been problematic since their inception

saltran1 votes

Is like if I play Ashe in a hipercarry meta, refuse to adapt and then I blame Rito for it.

Ahristocats5 votes

{quoted}

When I mention Top-lane Challengers, it's to prove the point that it is still possible to have a big impact on the game from Top lane. You can carry from Top lane.

No you it doesn't mean anything Just because 10 players climbed doesn't MEAN SHIT, this has to be the worst using of statistic i ever saw in my entire life

Also, you can climb by playing top you can climb by playing any role because the game needs 5 players in one team

it doesn't mean it will be fun, it doesn't mean playing the most disgusting broken laner that is camille to get a free ticket to challenger is fun if you think it's fun ask all the toplaners that quit and left the role unplayed in high mmr that isn't top10 challenger

ask meddler

Leonerdo2 votes

I never said it was a statistic. I'm using as a single example to disprove hyperbolic statements like "It's impossible to carry from the Top lane". I'm not trying to prove a pervasive trend with robust stats, I'm just saying, it's fucking possible to play top lane, be good at it, and win a lot because of it.

People need to quit acting like it's all or nothing. Like you can't play the game because your favorite champions are subpar. Or like your lane is useless because the meta shifted slightly.

That's all I'm arguing against. Top lane isn't fubar. It's just a little disappointing currently.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

People need to quit acting like it's all or nothing. Like you can't play the game because your favorite champions are subpar. Or like your lane is useless because the meta shifted slightly.

Top is garbage since but np. Maybe u were sleeping during ardent meta (even before) when toplaners complained about being useless cause games is decided before they could even teamfight.

Lowvyr1 votes

{quoted}

When I mention Top-lane Challengers, it's to prove the point that it is still possible to have a big impact on the game from Top lane. You can carry from Top lane.

That doesn't mean much for the overall popularity of Top lane. But if people are going to say shit like "It's impossible to carry as Top-laner. Junglers decide my lane, and ADCs decide the game. All I can do is play a tank and hope by team isn't garbage," with all the absolute language included, then I'm gonna throw down the easy disproof by giving one counterexample: "So how did the #5 Challenger player get there by playing top-lane fighters?"

I mean yeah you can carry with absolutely anything. You could get to challenger just playing AP Support Aatrox every game, but that doesn't mean it's viable or popular.

Leonerdo1 votes

No you can't.

xelaker4 votes

yet support gets hate just like the adcs lol

HalcyonDweller3 votes

Not to mention the fact that it is possible that with the lower number of available players playing top-lane in those ELOs they are more likely to be matched against weaker opponents and thus could have an inflated win-rate.

If 10 people are your sample size and they are the only top laners that good then the only people they can be matched against are each other or weaker opponents.

General Esdeath 3 votes

"B-but the top 5 accounts last season were top laners b-baka!"

3 of them were the same guy on 3 accounts playing busted champs. And yeah, the bigger the sample, the better. In this case I'd take just challenger players for one, Masters for another, Diamond for a third, and silver for a fourth.

ISLAMICWARRIOR993 votes

Top masters and chall is the only relevant sample.

taleofsonata3 votes

I think is more that those players are abusing the lane in which the casual top laner main have a hard time to adapt.

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

YES taking only the challenger elo is a BIAS OF SELECTION

No it isn't, its selecting a sample.

If you were only taking the top 237 players while ignoring the rest of master/challanger then that is a selection bias.

Making claims based on plat+ gameplay isn't a selection bias, but solely what you see in your games is a selection bias.

EDIT: i don't even know why i tried to talk about statistics to these boards.

Ahristocats4 votes

so? dude selected top10 challenger

i didn't select anything, i merely followed meddler's gameplay post about toplane's state in different MMR

Hibeki2 votes

No people purposefully select lower sample sizes where the result being skewed reflects the view they are trying to push

Saying "4 out of the top 7 challenger players are top mains" is stupid because if you increase the sample size to a hundred, the result becomes about 14 out of 100

Hibeki4 votes

No people purposefully select lower sample sizes where the result being skewed reflects the view they are trying to push

Saying "4 out of the top 7 challenger players are top mains" is stupid because if you increase the sample size to a hundred, the result becomes about 14 out of 100

GGLineaR1 votes

{quoted}

No it isn't, its selecting a sample.

If you were only taking the top 237 players while ignoring the rest of master/challanger then that is a selection bias.

Making claims based on plat+ gameplay isn't a selection bias, but solely what you see in your games is a selection bias.

That may be true, but using the top 1% as a sample is a stupid thing to do and it needs to be said that it's stupid.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

This game has 100 million players. A sample size of 1 million is not inherently stupid at all.... It won't give you an all encompassing picture of what is going on but it can be quite informative.

GGLineaR2 votes

{quoted}

This game has 100 million players. A sample size of 1 million is not inherently stupid at all.... It won't give you an all encompassing picture of what is going on but it can be quite informative.

Taking a sample size of 1 million out of 100 million and using that to enforce an arguement IS stupid, though.

Also, my bad, I was using 1% because I didn't know the actual number.

Turns out, it's actually around 0.03% that are challenger.

Apparently there's only like, 200 Challenger spots. Didn't know that for some reason.

Back to the topic at hand,

Out of 200 people, 40 of them might be toplane mains, assuming all the roles are devided evenly, even though we know they aren't.

Support and Top are the least popular roles in challenger, so people who actually main top would have to be lower than 40 or 30.

Assuming Top and support are evenly favoured, which is not likely but lets go with it, there are probably 20 top mains in challenger. And that is a generous number.

Saying toplane isn't in a bad place because 20 people main it is hilariously stupid.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Saying toplane isn't in a bad place because 20 people main it is hilariously stupid.

Yeah, toplane is in a shit place and has been for a long time. That doesn't make an analysis of challenger somehow stupid or incorrect, just not an all inclusive end all be all analysis. It does show that at least some players are having success in the role, even if the lane's dynamics are fucked.

Ionian Vulpix2 votes

I agree. Delete top lane.

chipndip12 votes

Same dude that links pro game stats for why a champ should be changed is stating that pro level players shouldn't be used to draw conclusions on the state of top lane.

Not that I agree or disagree (I think you should look towards the best for balancing, not the average or worst), but that's contradicting as hell.

Ahristocats1 votes

Except i do it when Riot wants to changes champions around LCS

I don't do it when Riot wants to change toplane AROUND SOLOQ

nice try fam, i liked that

chipndip11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hIEAcLQ2,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2018-02-07T10:46:31.837+0000)

Except i do it when Riot wants to changes champions around LCS

I don't do it when Riot wants to change toplane AROUND SOLOQ

nice try fam, i liked that

I mean, there's plenty of contradiction there, too, but I'm gonna not do all that.

Still, having top solo queue players as top lane mains that aren't playing tanks does hold as solid evidence that top lane isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

ISLAMICWARRIOR992 votes

Since when did popularity reflect balance? Just because I fucking hate playing maoki doesn't mean he isn't broken.

Sohleks2 votes

Thaaaank. Youu!

This was one thing I was not super eager to explain.

Top is less popular than ever and it just means there's more autofills top lane in a lane that's harsher than ever and mostly less forgiving than anything else in the game. There is more room for top lane players to shine [over each other] but you still can't ignore the kinda BS you either adopt or have to overcome to do that.

Lord Phazanor 1 votes

Same problem when people buy a dumb item (not off-meta or weird build, I'm talking about getting MR against full AD or Last Whisper against no tanks or too early), you point it out, then they tell you to "STFU" and if they manage to win they think it proves it wasn't bad...

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Are u talking about dom ???

anyway u shouldn't waste ur breath for someone not even playing top.

underscores2221 votes

Actually, you can draw conclusions from just about any sample size if you use the correct statistical method. Generally speaking, though, you only need a sample of about 30 to be able to draw statistically reliable conclusions about a population from a single sample. With smaller sample sizes, it is best to compare the averages of each sample, with at least 10 samples.

However, it is important to note that it is about the population being sampled. If you use Challenger data, you can only reliably report information about the challenger population. If you want to report conclusions about the entire league population, the best practice would be to take a random sample from across all regions and skill levels.

BestPudgeNA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hIEAcLQ2,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-02-06T16:32:26.236+0000)

So stop **ing around and change the facts with biased stats, Toplane IS the least popular role with support in higher mmr

You're discussing two different things here. First is the reason why top is supposedly not fun those being unbalanced champs and such EX Tanks are op, Teemo is annoying, bruisers suck ect. People counter this with bring up the fact almost all the top lane main play almost exclusively bruisers and specialized champs like GP and Gnar. While Tanks and Teemo are very low play rates in solo que.

The second is about the fact of top lane being unpopular. The thing is this really makes no difference to WHY it is/isn't popular. Frankly you're also using a selection bias when you wanna talk about only high MMR. When the reality is the role is the most literally the middle of the pack(3rd of 5) when all MMR is taken into account. I also really don't buy Bot being more popular at low MMRs i will que Flex for norms and i will NEVER get top or Mid. Mostly support, some JG and a tiny bit of Bot.

Iceborn Pippin1 votes

I'm an unranked plebian, but my friend who is gold this season simply hates toplane and thinks its way too unbalanced. I personally can't speak about the state of toplane as all I play is MID or BOT.

JackMcSnipeyz1 votes

The post didnt argue the lane's popularity, it argued against the people who said "toplane has no impact on the game" which does matter in the context when you take a sample of the best of the best. If the highest rank players are mostly top, (like that thread suggested) it means they impact their games positivly and arent just getting carried.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Ahristocats

I just can't play League anymore....
Gameplay334 comments
306
votes
So this is the Future
Gameplay222 comments
205
votes
Okay, you want to know what is wrong with the kog buff in next patch?
Gameplay168 comments
186
votes
Riot, I DON'T want to play with premades
Gameplay120 comments
179
votes
i'm fucking tired of jayce seriously
Gameplay149 comments
177
votes
Counterplay to a champion should not be "destroy them before X minutes"
Gameplay262 comments
162
votes