Can Volibear have base stats and scaling that make sense for a Juggernaut?

Moody P··50 votes·15,563 views

Volibear's base stats and survivability are painfully below par for a modern Juggernaut. Comparing him to what I think is the most reliable baseline for Juggernauts, Darius;

Volibear has about 240 less HP at level 18. He has 25 less AD at level 18 (Volibear has one of the lowest ADs/18 out of his entire group). He has 12.5 less armor at level 18. 50 less auto attack range, and less HP regen at all stages of the game. Volibear DOES have more movement speed, mana regen, and attack speed. However, Volibear has a survival tool that is not in his own control, where Darius has one that becomes very spammable by mid game. At the point where Volibear's passive activates to heal him, Darius's Q will heal him potentially for more -- instantly, on a 3 second cooldown compared to Volibear's 2 minute cooldown, and while doing much more damage. Volibear has slightly more CC, but given the release of Aatrox and Urgot, he's no longer anywhere near best of class for that, either.

In addition, Volibear has been continually robbed of durability due to indirect nerfs. Over the years, we've lost about 800 HP from tank items, which IIRC includes what we briefly had in S7 with Strength of Ages. This has a bigger effect on Volibear than it does tanks; given that he has no innate defenses like a shield with which to compound the stats he buys, said stats are all Voli has to survive with. Given that his main (arguably his only significant) damage tool scales with HP, Volibear loses out multiple times harder than most tanks would.

Worse yet, Volibear's scalings seem more appropriate for a tank than a Juggernaut in 2018. Despite being primarily auto attack focused, he has no scaling on Q, a health scaling on W, and 2 AP ratios on E and R. Given the nature of his highly snowbally kit, the fact that he has nothing to scale off of means he has to have an absurdly strong early power spike. This lends to him feeling more like a tank-assassin when he gets a lead, rather than a raid boss like he ought to be. He has less scaling than an AP Juggernaut in Mordekaiser and terrible synergy with most fighter items; he does not get much offensive value out of anything other than Titanic (the only on-hit item that also grants health), so frequently he ends up having to opt into full tank builds even when they feel less than desirable.

My suggestions, as a Volibear player and enthusiast;

  • Please take power out of his W, either by base or HP scaling, and shuffle it around the rest of his kit via AD ratios, particularly on Q, W or R. It is, IMO, the biggest balance "issue" with Volibear despite him not really being an issue to balance. This could also alleviate the frustration of him getting ahead, since his damage would then be distributed into autos/R-enhanced autos more than him getting a squishy to half HP and then nuking them with W.
  • Buff base stats to give back even a little bit of what he has lost, or to give back a little of what he ought to have. Primarily HP, base AD would be appreciated.
  • Passive scale with CDR or at least scale down by level, if it's going to be his only survival tool and also get demolished by a measly 800 gold it should at least be up more often.

Thank you.

81 Comments

Spank the Fox27 votes

Voli needs a rework, he’s also just big ole statcheck, which is why I’m sure they’re hesistant to buff his stats.

Darius is more durable because he only has his pull to keep you close and he has to resposition himself constantly to get heals.

Voli wants to run at you and just sit on you. Not much interaction - if you can peel, you win. If you don’t, better hope you outstat him.

ModCaliCoastReplay4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spank the Fox,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hEM5GpUE,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-08-23T14:46:35.352+0000)

Voli wants to run at you and just sit on you.

But, you know, is there anything really wrong with that? xD

DeusVult2 votes

with stat checks?? Yes

The most fun that I or most other people I play the game with have when playing league is when you are fighting someone else who SHOULD kill you, but you outplay them by dodging etc to get the kill. A stat check champ doesnt allow that. They can miss 90% of their kit and still win because they outstat you.

Look at Mundo, who I believe is the worst when it comes to stat check kits. If you can kill him, early game you kill him. As the game progresses, you can continue to kill him if you stay far enough ahead of him in terms of stats. But if mundo ever gets ahead of you in that regard, than you CANNOT fight him, and if you even get near to him he will just chase you down with Q spam. No fun or counterplay to truly be had.

Rouwhorst1 votes

I mean, back in the beginning of league there weren't a lot of outplay possibilities for melee/fighter champions. Or let's just say there were a lot more stat-checks back then. Yet people still had fun. Let's not focus all of our attention to micro plays and act as if it's the only thing that makes league fun.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

{quoted}

Let's not focus all of our attention to micro plays and act as if it's the only thing that makes league fun.

Nah let's actually focus on that for a bit.

Was playing against Tryndamere's crits fun (funny that it's still a thing)? Was playing against Renekton as literally any melee champion fun? Was playing against Mordekaiser fun?

There's a reason we focus more on micro plays now, because pure statcheckers are not fun.

That's why Morde got a rework so he isn't just bursting people down with 0 counterplay by pressing E and Renekton's damage is now rightfully about half of what it used to be so now he actually has to wittle his opponents (that now have more counterplay options) down with poke instead of simply level 2 rage W Q ignite oneshot/sending them back to base.

The reason it was fun was because mid and bot lane were primarily contested by skillshot reliant champions. Top lane was never fun, it was always a statcheck fiesta until we slowly got updates and new champions that could do more than simply statcheck.

The fun we top laners derived from our lane was the sadistic pleasure in knowing we could outstatcheck our opponent and later statcheck multiple opponents at once. The fun part about Morde was knowing you could literally 1v5 with so little skill and counterplay that you were a literal monster. It was a different kind of fun that was derived from removing fun from our opponents.

Rouwhorst1 votes

Perhaps it was. You (and we) are looking at it differently now than back then. We are so focussed on being able to outplay our opponents, flashy plays and being able to dodge skills that the other strategies and skills barely matter anymore. (let's not forget Riot's play in this)

Top lane wasn't only about stat checking, no lane was. If really no skill was involved... why did not all top laners get to challenger by simply stat checking their opponent? It was much, much more than stat-checking.

Renekton hardly got any nerfs after his release. Only shortly after his release he got a few nerfs, which is normal to have on any champion. After that only bugfixes, buffs and minor changes.

The reason it was fun was because mid and bot lane were primarily contested by skillshot reliant champions. Top lane was never fun, it was always a statcheck fiesta until we slowly got updates and new champions that could do more than simply statcheck.

The fun we top laners derived from our lane was the sadistic pleasure in knowing we could outstatcheck our opponent and later statcheck multiple opponents at once. The fun part about Morde was knowing you could literally 1v5 with so little skill and counterplay that you were a literal monster. It was a different kind of fun that was derived from removing fun from our opponents.

Nonsense, merely by them also having the chance to stat-check makes it even again. Bit weird that toplane was much more enjoyable back then if this was the case...

Z3Sleeper1 votes

{quoted}

Nonsense, merely by them also having the chance to stat-check makes it even again.

There is no chance in statchecking, thus the name.

Rouwhorst1 votes

Then where does stat check originate from? Champions? So a certain champion would have 100% Wr cuz stats?

Z3Sleeper1 votes

I gotta explain statchecking ok.

Statchecking occurs when a champion's damage output and defense allows them to statistically beat out another champion's damage output and defense.

This is primarily referred to when abilities that require skillful usage are absent from the fight.

What dictates who wins is, by the name, whoever statchecks harder.

How one is determined to win the statcheck is by who has better stats.

How one acquires better stats is both through base stats, passive, abilities, level growth and items.

If two champions are nearly identical in stats, then the one that gains a stat advantage via the above mentioned areas, becomes the better statchecker.

Additionally, due to the above mentioned areas, some champions simply outstatcheck other champions at certain stages of the game while swapping roles at other points. On top of that, there are 8 other players involved in the game.

And to answer the rhetorical question, this is why 100% WR doesn't occur.

Rouwhorst1 votes

Okay, thanks. I'd like you also to respond to the rest of my initial post (1 sentence nitpick is a bit meh)

Still, a champion being stronger in certain areas or stages does not make it bad. Also, what is the precise definition of skillful. Pressing a button? Pressing a button and having the cursor in the correct place? It's a pretty grey area. And even then, there are often ways to play around it, like not fighting, careful positioning, wave management, ect. But no... let's not have that, everybody and everything needs to be outplayable by immediate interaction

Z3Sleeper1 votes

{quoted}

Still, a champion being stronger in certain areas or stages does not make it bad.

It does if it's purely so due to statchecking.

Also, what is the precise definition of skillful. Pressing a button? Pressing a button and having the cursor in the correct place? It's a pretty grey area.

Three types of skill:

  1. Skillshots. Skillshots are considered skillful because they can be counterplayed by dodging them and thus it takes skill to land them

  2. Things such as Riven animation cancelling that is legitimately hard to execute

And even then, there are often ways to play around it, like not fighting, careful positioning, wave management, ect.

  1. General knowledge of how to play

But no... let's not have that, everybody and everything needs to be outplayable by immediate interaction

No, but the majority of champion to champion interactions should extend beyond 3) General knowledge of how to play.

ModCaliCoastReplay1 votes

{quoted}

with stat checks?? Yes

The most fun that I or most other people I play the game with have when playing league is when you are fighting someone else who SHOULD kill you, but you outplay them by dodging etc to get the kill. A stat check champ doesnt allow that. They can miss 90% of their kit and still win because they outstat you.

Look at Mundo, who I believe is the worst when it comes to stat check kits. If you can kill him, early game you kill him. As the game progresses, you can continue to kill him if you stay far enough ahead of him in terms of stats. But if mundo ever gets ahead of you in that regard, than you CANNOT fight him, and if you even get near to him he will just chase you down with Q spam. No fun or counterplay to truly be had.

You misunderstand.

I am anti-broken-stat-checks.

I am pro bears-sitting-on-people.

And if you aren't, I just don't know how we're going to come to a basis for this discussion.

Moody P7 votes

There is nothing wrong with the idea of a 'stat check,' which is just fancy talk for 'reliable damage.' Volibear, due to the immobile nature of a juggernaut, is required to have some degree of reliability - given that he is very easy to peel and disengage from, he should not have to also be playing a minigame to actually do meaningful damage.

Not much interaction

Volibear's interaction comes from being able to read and prevent your attempts to escape. A Volibear who knows when to Q and E to stop somebody's dash can both prevent someone from escaping or stop someone from doing damage to him; a Volibear who doesn't will not do either. Volibear is only a stat check when matched up against other champions who have reliable damage (juggernauts and skirmishers); against most of the cast, he's quite interactive.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Ever face an Ornn with Volibear? It's pretty funny, idk if 'skillful', but funny. When Ornn W's you can E him and make him spin around and shoot his flames the other way. Fun stuff.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Pretty much this. Volibear's damage output is entirely statcheck based with a small amount of build up on Frenzy. He should not have the same stats more immobile juggernauts with actual mechanisms locking them out of their damage have. He also has easy on-demand access to his CC.

However, I still think Volibear is a well designed champion in that he has some skill expression tied to stopping dashes with his E and Q and at least has some build up to his damage like mentioned above, which is a lot more than a certain other statchecker jugg has DrMundo.

But that's not to say I think he's a well designed juggernaut, just a well designed champion. If he were to have the same stats/damage output, he'd need better lockout mechanisms than his little 3 hits before I can bite thing.

DarukongSr9 votes

Not even a voli fan, but I agree he is garbage and can use some love.

GigglesO5 votes

It’s not low when you look at Mordekaiser

D357R0Y3R4 votes

+1

Khristophoros3 votes

Give him CC immunity and damage reduction for the first 3 seconds of his ult. He's supposed to be able to autoattack during a teamfight but he just gets kited and stunned a lot.

Anu3isII4 votes

Now imagine a Voli that ults and uses his Q with a fully stacked item 3742 and item 3800 ...

His engages would be unstoppable and I bet he would be nerfed to the ground for that.

Khristophoros1 votes

Yeah they probably don't buff him because he's already pretty good at getting off a flip which can be a really high value thing in a teamfight. But damn it feels awful to play him.

Anu3isII1 votes

I agree with you that he feels awful, but that is a problem with how simple and unsatisfying kit really is.

His W and R specifically are my main problems. They just give him damage, without adding anything interesting to his play style. I would add his E if Riot didn't give him that knock-back, which actually rewards reactive plays.

I think it would be cool if they gave him less reliable abilities in exchange for making him somewhat disruptive. I would love to play him if he was some kind of terrifying monster in the middle of teamfights, not just a Target Dummy that sometimes auto-attacks people.

Khristophoros1 votes

There's nothing unsatisfying about his kit until you run into a teamfight and everything that should be satisfying is completely shut down by enemy CC and kiting.

Anu3isII1 votes

Everyone has their own preferences. However, aren't CC and kiting weaknesses that generally apply to juggernauts? All of them suffer in the same way due to their immobile nature and low-mid range aggression.

They want to fight face-to-face, they aren't amazingly agile, yet they are extremely deadly and durable. Their durability is lacking, to the point where they don't get to do a thing and they are dead? Then (in my opinion) their durability should be buffed.

Khristophoros1 votes

The problem with Volibear is that his ult is meant for teamfights so a lot of his power budget is invested into that, but his kit overall doesn't work in teamfights at all.

Other juggernauts either have kits designed to split and duel or they have kits that actually function in teamfights. When a champ has an AoE ult like this, it needs to have tools that help it deal with all the focus fire and CC chaining in teamfights.

Volibear has extra trouble because he needs to be able to autoattack to use his W and his ult but this means that CC and kiting shut him down extra hard. In contrast Garen and Darius have high impact moments that are on cooldowns, so can still be effective if they find short windows of opportunity. Volibear needs to either have a forced window of time where he can unload some autoattacks or he needs tools to let him find windows of opportunity more frequently.

This wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem if his ult was more focused around dueling or small skirmishes, but I think a core part of his identity is the teamfight power fantasy of getting into the backline and wrecking havoc with chain lightning. Unfortunately this power fantasy has never been viable against a decent team comp.

BobaFlautist3 votes

Maybe slow immunity? Or reduction?

That way he can dodge and avoid other cc without running into the same counterplay problems Olaf always has.

CppL1 votes

no ,that would be op as fuck.

Khristophoros1 votes

ok 2 seconds?

5050BS3 votes

He has less HP because of his Passive He has less AD because he has %HP on his W He has less Armor because they dont want you to build AD He has less melee Range because he is faster and has Q

Voil is actually one of the (for the most parts) balanced ones.

Moody P4 votes

Darius's Q is stronger than Volibear's passive He doesn't have % HP on E; his kit is entirely flat damage. He's an auto attacking fighter, why would he not build AD? Most juggernauts heavily outrange Volibear except for Garen and have 175 range

Volibear is underpowered and vastly lacking when held up to any other Juggernaut. Any time he's meta (like, actually meta, played in high elo games and not just stomping out noobs) he basically plays as a tank because his damage scaling is possibly the worst out of any fighter in the game.

5050BS2 votes

sorry W

everything else I said is true and we are not talking about Darius's Q or Garen. Have you even considered that they are over tuned?

League has a MASSIVE balance problem and Voli is not one of them. Like I said, he is one of the ones that is (mostly) balanced.

Moody P2 votes

They're not overtuned. Darius is at 50.5% winrate and Garen's is declining; for his simplicity he should be considered balanced at 51-52%.

Volibear can be more closely compared in current function as a pick-making tank to Skarner or Sejuani, in which case he gets completely outclassed in every conceivable way. Even relative to other juggernauts, new Aatrox does his job better and then plenty more, too.

When even one of the highest ranked Volibear players in NA - an actual Volibear one trick - advises people to just not play Volibear, I don't think you can say he's balanced.

LordGeovanni2 votes

Darius and Garen are most certainly Overtuned as a fighter player they beat out and bully all the other fighters (except other overtuned shit like riven and yas that try to fight them just to be overpowered enough to kill adcs and mages assuming you can get close to them.)

SwiftKitten882 votes

... umm no... the issue with voli (outside of overall damage creep is his bite)

the difference between voli and other is voli doesn't NEED to buy ANY damage items and he STILL does a shit ton of damage. why are you purposely avoiding this.

if you gave him better scaling he would be completely unstoppable

he is already a very binary champion

his issue right now is damage creep is so high you can burn him through his passive

he donest need buffs, he needs damage to go down more...

stop asking for buffs

especially on champions that are perfectly fine https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/volibear/diamond

he is over 50% winrate in every elo (including diamond +) except for plat only where he goes "down" to 49.6%

he is FINE

Moody P5 votes

the difference between voli and other is voli doesn't NEED to buy ANY damage items and he STILL does a shit ton of damage.

...to squishies. if you match Volibear, full-tank, against any juggernaut with the same build -- hell, even most tanks with the same build - Volibear will lose. Operating entirely on base damage except for one high-cooldown execute, with no % damage and low DPS to anyone who's bought MR (or just Adaptive Helm), even lower when his ult is off, Volibear's damage is not impressive against anyone unless they're squishy. And squishies are meant to be threatened by anybody; that's the concept of being squishy.

he donest need buffs, he needs damage to go down more...

This hardly helps him at all. Tank metas are even worse for Volibear, because then he won't do any damage to 2-3 members of the enemy team, and those same people will hard stonewall him from reaching the people he can kill. He has absolutely 0 threat to tanks, unlike any other Juggernaut.

he is over 50% winrate in every elo (including diamond +) except for plat only where he goes "down" to 49.6%

On one of the lowest pick rates in the game, in a favorable meta. Old Galio maintained a 55% win rate with similar play rate and just about anybody would tell you he was a shit pick. One statistic with no context is meaningless. This is not 'fine' if a champion can only scrape a 50% winrate despite being barely played and being played in what should be one of his strongest metas.

he is already a very binary champion

This isn't true at all. Volibear actually has plenty of interaction in his kit, between his 2 spells that can stop/intercept dashes and being able to fear minions which encourages riskier laning all-ins and trading patterns (which, in turn, sets him up to be punished if he plays poorly or overstays).

stop asking for buffs

Now, I've already seen you before, so I know that you're fervently biased against Volibear, and you were the exact same even when he was objectively the worst champion in the game early this season, but I'm not asking for flat buffs. In fact, I was pretty clear about asking for a power shift out of his W, which is taking up more power budget than it should for a condition-locked basic ability, which is in itself an enormous nerf to Volibear's early game kill potential, in exchange for proper Juggernaut scaling because a champion who is melee with no hard gap closer and no range at all should not be easily ignorable after 20 minutes unless he walks out of laning phase with 3 kills.

SwiftKitten881 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hEM5GpUE,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-08-23T16:30:57.293+0000)

...to squishies. if you match Volibear, full-tank, against any juggernaut with the same build -- hell, even most tanks with the same build - Volibear will lose. Operating entirely on base damage except for one high-cooldown execute, with no % damage and low DPS to anyone who's bought MR (or just Adaptive Helm), even lower when his ult is off, Volibear's damage is not impressive against anyone unless they're squishy. And squishies are meant to be threatened by anybody; that's the concept of being squishy.

you are talking about laning phase... there are 4 other plays who have to deal with voli AFTER laning phase..

just becuase they dont LANE aginst him doesnt mean they dont have to FACE him the entire game

This hardly helps him at all. Tank metas are even worse for Volibear, because then he won't do any damage to 2-3 members of the enemy team, and those same people will hard stonewall him from reaching the people he can kill. He has absolutely 0 threat to tanks, unlike any other Juggernaut.

... this is the problem with you people... u dont undertsand the comcept of balance

to you its either burst meta, or adc meta, or tank meta

making it so people can't 1 shot other doesnt make it TANK META.. tanks metas are one of the worst things in the game.

tank > burst > sustained > tank

that is a BALANCED meta.. that is what we had in season 3 and 4. ( i cant speak for 1 and 2 as i didnt play then)

thats how they game USED to be every Class was strong

sure there are champions that were OP, but it wasn't a "class"

there was Zed Kassadin Leblanc pemabans and stuff like Yorick and Urgot weer tool picks

but even rare picks like Poppy and the old galio Galio has a place

On one of the lowest pick rates in the game, in a favorable meta. Old Galio maintained a 55% win rate with similar play rate and just about anybody would tell you he was a shit pick. One statistic with no context is meaningless. This is not 'fine' if a champion can only scrape a 50% winrate despite being barely played and being played in what should be one of his strongest metas.

again, if pickrate is low becuase even though he is balanced. it means if people are trying to climb rather than playing the champions they love they are going to pick the currently OP champions like Garen and DrMundo rather than one which is balanced has has countplay

This isn't true at all. Volibear actually has plenty of interaction in his kit, between his 2 spells that can stop/intercept dashes and being able to fear minions which encourages riskier laning all-ins and trading patterns (which, in turn, sets him up to be punished if he plays poorly or overstays).

again you are talking about laning phase... there are 4 other plays who have to deal with voli AFTER laning phase..

Now, I've already seen you before, so I know that you're fervently biased against Volibear, and you were the exact same even when he was objectively the worst champion in the game early this season, but I'm not asking for flat buffs. In fact, I was pretty clear about asking for a power shift out of his W, which is taking up more power budget than it should for a condition-locked basic ability, which is in itself an enormous nerf to Volibear's early game kill potential, in exchange for proper Juggernaut scaling because a champion who is melee with no hard gap closer and no range at all should not be easily ignorable after 20 minutes unless he walks out of laning phase with 3 kills.

volibear is incredibility toxic to deal with when he is too strong.

pretty much any champion like Volibear Udyr Renekton Garen Irelia Illaoi Singed Shyvana Shen becomes highly toxic when they are too strong because u cant ever go near them and u cant burst them down faster than they can kill you

Darius at least has no dashes so u can kite him

but the other have ways to close the gap and kill you the instant they do leaving no chance for escape unless your another highly tanky top laner

current he is BALANCED

when your at 50% winrate U DONT NEED BUFFS this isn't exactly a hard concept to understand

yes there are other champions that can fill his current role that are BROKEN and OP.. that donest make voli WEAK.. that makes the OTHERS too strong. THEY needs nerfs. Volibear does NOT need buffs

Moody P1 votes

season 4 was not a 'balanced' meta; it was definitely heavily assassin focused, and most tanks sucked ass at the time - it was just balanced out by the fact that anyone could buy GA or Banshee's (objectively, season 4 was a better time). In fact, I very much remember that the jungle in particular comprised of Elise, Lee Sin, and Kha'zix as the top 3 who stood above J4, and then towered over everyone else. The game has always revolved around metas.

at least has no dashes so u can kite him

Darius has an infinitely easier time closing the gap than Illaoi, lol; Illaoi is designed entirely around hunkering down. not to mention 'toxic' is entirely subjective. What champion isn't 'toxic' when they're too strong? Who's asking for their champion to be too strong? Illaoi has never actually existed at a state where she could be called too strong - never been nerfed and has never had a significant ban rate, either - so how do you know she's toxic when she's 'too strong'?

when your at 50% winrate U DONT NEED BUFFS this isn't exactly a hard concept to understand

This is a terrible argument and even Riot doesn't agree with it. Sona is considered balanced well above 50% winrate and underpowered at or below it; it's the same thing with Warwick which is why most players are/were fine with him sitting in the 52% range from the day he got his rework for like, the next year+. Easy champions should have higher average winrates. Garen sitting at 49-50% is considered a complete joke pick by anyone above Gold. Garen at 54% still doesn't even get considered by a single professional team and he's pretty much exclusively thriving off a good meta and soloQ chaos; if he stabilizes at 52% then he shouldn't be considered problematic. It was like this up until like season 5 when people like you started taking one number and using it as a rallying cry. I remember season 4, early 5 when champions liked Singed and Karthus could sit at 55, 56% average winrates plat and up and nobody would so much as bat an eye at it, and you'd get laughed out of the room for calling either of them overpowered. One number, devoid of any context whatsoever, is absolutely worthless.

SwiftKitten881 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hEM5GpUE,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-23T18:14:44.264+0000)

season 4 was not a 'balanced' meta; it was definitely heavily assassin focused, and most tanks sucked ass at the time - it was just balanced out by the fact that anyone could buy GA or Banshee's (objectively, season 4 was a better time). In fact, I very much remember that the jungle in particular comprised of Elise, Lee Sin, and Kha'zix as the top 3 who stood above J4, and then towered over everyone else. The game has always revolved around metas.

Darius has an infinitely easier time closing the gap than Illaoi, lol; Illaoi is designed entirely around hunkering down. not to mention 'toxic' is entirely subjective. What champion isn't 'toxic' when they're too strong? Who's asking for their champion to be too strong? Illaoi has never actually existed at a state where she could be called too strong - never been nerfed and has never had a significant ban rate, either - so how do you know she's toxic when she's 'too strong'?

Illaoi can use test of spirit to effectively deal damage to you without being in melee range and her tetacle smash is ranged sooo yeah...

also neither of this champs is Volibear

This is a terrible argument and even Riot doesn't agree with it. Sona is considered balanced well above 50% winrate and underpowered at or below it; it's the same thing with Warwick which is why most players are/were fine with him sitting in the 52% range from the day he got his rework for like, the next year+. Easy champions should have higher average winrates. Garen sitting at 49-50% is considered a complete joke pick by anyone above Gold. Garen at 54% still doesn't even get considered by a single professional team and he's pretty much exclusively thriving off a good meta and soloQ chaos; if he stabilizes at 52% then he shouldn't be considered problematic. It was like this up until like season 5 when people like you started taking one number and using it as a rallying cry. I remember season 4, early 5 when champions liked Singed and Karthus could sit at 55, 56% average winrates plat and up and nobody would so much as bat an eye at it, and you'd get laughed out of the room for calling either of them overpowered. One number, devoid of any context whatsoever, is absolutely worthless.

and we arn't asking for buffs to them when they are at that winrate are we?

and in season 4 and early 5 there were no real "accurate" winrate statistics anyways.

you are flat out asking from buffs to a champions for the sole reason that he isn't "OP" in this meta. even though he is perfectly fine with a decent winrate in every elo. without being oppressive in any.

right now in the current state of league there are ZERO champions that need buffs, let alone in champions that are fine the only thing we need in league for about the next 2 years are nerfs.

Galiö2 votes

He has more 'scaling' than Mundo. But Mundo gets more free stats and doesnt need stats other than Health.

Would u prefer voli be more like Mundo?

Moody P7 votes

Mundo also has bullshit base damage and current% damage which scales on its own, as well as always-available DPS because his E is a massive AD steroid with no cooldown past laning phase. Volibear's damage is split between one high-CD nuke and his ultimate.

No; I think Mundo is terrible design. I would rather Volibear be able to actually function off of Juggernaut items like Titanic and Sterak's

Tariacosa2 votes

They should add a burst of Armor and MR when Volibear's passive activates that slowly tappers off as the healing comes in. Somewhat of a damage reduction to allow his heal to kick in. If they did that, he would be a whole new champion.

Oleandervine1 votes

Volibear is a tier 1 champion on the list of VGUs, meaning he's in dire need of one. I don't think they'll do any extensive balance work on him considering that they'll be updating him sooner than later.

Moody P1 votes

He doesn't really need a VGU 'direly.' He has a very functional kit that delivers on his theme and it's help up quite well for its simplicity, especially after the minor CC added to his E to bring him back up to par. He simply doesn't have the stats required to function as well as he should.

Oleandervine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hEM5GpUE,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-08-23T16:32:14.571+0000)

He doesn't really need a VGU 'direly.' He has a very functional kit that delivers on his theme and it's help up quite well for its simplicity, especially after the minor CC added to his E to bring him back up to par. He simply doesn't have the stats required to function as well as he should.

Well that's your opinion, and it doesn't mesh with Riot's. They believe he needs a comprehensive overhaul, not just minor adjustments.

Moody P3 votes

And Riot's reworks have mostly been terrible and in bad faith, so I'll argue my point as much as I possibly can in the hopes I can get people to agree.

Dingding1231 votes

Yeah he's basically an on-hit tank. Make sense of that how you will.

Moody P2 votes

There's not necessarily anything wrong with how he is other than the lack of items that support this (no on-hit items other than Titanic give defenses, Wit's End situational, Guinsoo too expensive, etc.)

That's why I think the healthiest approach is to let him operate more efficiently with just something like item 3748 item 3053 into tank, and call it a day.

Rouwhorst1 votes

Let's compare his base stats with... Pyke... (just for funz) Volibear --//-- pyke

Health 584.5 – 2046.5 --//-- 600 – 2300 Attack damage 68 – 124.1 --//-- 62 – 96 Health regen. 8 – 19.1 --//-- 7 – 15.5 Attack speed [*] 0.658 (+ 0 – 45.4%) --//-- 0.667 (+ 0 – 42.5%) Mana 270.4 – 780.4 --//-- 415 – 1265 Armor 35 – 94.5 --//-- 45 – 130 Mana regen. 8.1 – 19.1 --//-- 8 – 25 Magic resist. 32.1 – 53.4 --//-- 32 – 66 Range 125 --//-- 150 Move. speed 345 --//-- 330

The Yetii Rider5 votes

Pyke literally cannot build health. Comparing Pyke's health to any other champion's is ridiculous.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Yeaaa... Idk about listing the one champion whose health scales more than normal to slightly pad the fact that he literally can't build any.

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