Riot nerfed Veigar for instant stun

DropFill·Mar 19, 2015·26 votes·2,689 views

Even though it did no damage , and you actually could dodge being stunned. Annie flash tibbers not only nukes you, but you can't do shit about it

53 Comments

BeerOfRoot4843Mar 20, 201520 votes

Annie flash tibbers.

Flash tibbers.

Flash

JunkοMar 20, 20152 votes

It's like she needs a Flash with spell range longer than every ADC's

Ser SafirMar 20, 201511 votes

Attacking annie isn't gonna help veigar.

Annie ADCMar 20, 20154 votes

Thank youuu.

Malix FarwinMar 21, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ser Safir,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h7Y4jPve,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-03-20T00:58:33.580+0000)

Attacking annie isn't gonna help veigar.

This ^

Unless of course this was never really about veigar.

IcyPepperMar 19, 20159 votes

Maybe it's time Annie and Tibbers join the .75 second club.

DreddethMar 20, 20158 votes

Annie needs a 4 spell windup before she can actually stun you, and her range is short so she usually has to burn Flash to get it off. As Soraka, I deal with the infamous Annie-Bot by dropping Equinox every time I see the swirl, and it works. If I can, I also zone her with Starcall so she can't easily use her offensive spells as part of her windup. If all else fails, I still have Flash, and Wish, and Tibbers is rather easy to hit with either Equinox or Starcall after I've escaped.

The thing about Annie is that she has what's called an "instant death radius" around her, but it's short, and setup reliant. Anyone with longer range, better zoning, or better disabling has an innate advantage over her. Fiddlesticks, for example, can silence her from behind a minion wave if she tries to farm with her Q or W, and can fear her if she's on-screen, which makes getting her stun-ult off more difficult. If she decides to stay in range afterwards, she's inviting Fiddlesticks to drain her. Fiddlesticks' own ult is not something Annie can stop or avoid without her stun or Flash, both of which she needs for her combo.

DropFillMar 20, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Annie needs a 4 spell windup before she can actually stun you, and her range is short so she usually has to burn Flash to get it off. As Soraka, I deal with the infamous Annie-Bot by dropping Equinox every time I see the swirl, and it works. If I can, I also zone her with Starcall so she can't easily use her offensive spells as part of her windup. If all else fails, I still have Flash, and Wish, and Tibbers is rather easy to hit with either Equinox or Starcall after I've escaped.

The thing about Annie is that she has what's called an "instant death radius" around her, but it's short, and setup reliant. Anyone with longer range, better zoning, or better disabling has an innate advantage over her. Fiddlesticks, for example, can silence her from behind a minion wave if she tries to farm with her Q or W, and can fear her if she's on-screen, which makes getting her stun-ult off more difficult. If she decides to stay in range afterwards, she's inviting Fiddlesticks to drain her. Fiddlesticks' own ult is not something Annie can stop or avoid without her stun or Flash, both of which she needs for her combo.

Her design is stupid. She is STUPIDLY broken against some champions, and stupidly shitty against some. She is extremely toxic to play with or against 100% of the time

Annie ADCMar 20, 20158 votes

First post: Here are some good reasons as why I think this champion is balanced. Reply: You're wrong SHE'S STUPID Nice.

JunkοMar 20, 20153 votes

Actually he did explain why she was stupid and toxic. Because she completely shuts down some champions, but is shitty against every champion she can't shut down.

Just like Heimer.

Mikal PikalMar 20, 20153 votes

So she is like pretty much every champion in the game? People don't like her because she counters mobile assassins...

NarasimhaMar 20, 20157 votes

Your own comparison fails you. Annie has to use a Summoner Spell AND her ultimate to do so. Veigar had to aim and push one button.

DropFillMar 20, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Your own comparison fails you. Annie has to use a Summoner Spell AND her ultimate to do so. Veigar had to aim and push one button.

Both burst mages, both have a stun. The difference is that veigar had low aoe burst, but good CC. Annie has both and the same weaknesses veigar had.

NarasimhaMar 20, 20152 votes

The difference is that veigar had low aoe burst, buth good CC.

Eh, I'd say his emphasis was more on the single target burst. Annie's entire combo relied on her Flash bang. Without it, the backline was generally pretty safe. On the other hand, Veigar's stun meant it was much easier for him to walk up to his cced target and delete them. Of course, he became useless afterwards, but no one is perfect.

DarthSpectrumMar 19, 20155 votes

An Annie and a (pre-rework) Veigar walks into mid lane with full builds.

Who wins?

Annie is stupidly broken against close range champions such as Zed or Lissandra who are forced to go within her spell range in order to do damage. However, other mages can either out range her or retaliate with equal burst.

The5lackerMar 20, 20152 votes

I really wouldn't say "Equal burst" for anyone other than Xerath, and that's only if he gets a clean shot with his E.

DropFillMar 20, 20153 votes

{quoted}

An Annie and a (pre-rework) Veigar walks into mid lane with full builds.

Who wins?

Annie is stupidly broken against close range champions such as Zed or Lissandra who are forced to go within her spell range in order to do damage. However, other mages can either out range her or retaliate with equal burst.

Equal burst? Her ratios are insane, and you can't retaliate while stunned.

JunkοMar 20, 20151 votes

Mage vs Anti-Mage

that is really an unfair comparison.

Annie vs Zed Veigar vs Zed

Guess who wins that?

SleepyLionCubMar 20, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hurny Quilva,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h7Y4jPve,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2015-03-20T13:25:46.231+0000)

Mage vs Anti-Mage

that is really an unfair comparison.

Annie vs Zed Veigar vs Zed

Guess who wins that?

Or, how about

Annie vs Leblanc

Veigar vs Leblanc

Leb is a mage and assassin

Meep ManMar 20, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hurny Quilva,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h7Y4jPve,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2015-03-20T13:25:46.231+0000)

Mage vs Anti-Mage

that is really an unfair comparison.

Annie vs Zed Veigar vs Zed

Guess who wins that?

Thats an unfair match-up as well since Annie is an anti-close range Mage since her spell ranges are so low and she can gain defenses from her E. Zed also has a teleport to get out of Veigar's E with his W or R.

Thats like asking who would win?

Soraka vs Darius or Kayle vs Darius

The5lackerMar 20, 20154 votes

That and she's got some truly staggering AP Ratios.

80% AP on a 4 second cooldown? 85% On an AoE? Is that entirely necessary, guys?

FasmodeyMar 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That and she's got some truly staggering AP Ratios.

80% AP on a 4 second cooldown? 85% On an AoE? Is that entirely necessary, guys?

It's actually %85 in her Q too.

Edit: Oh, nevermind. My mistake.

Raja ChachkiMar 20, 20154 votes

agreed, let's nerf Taric his stun is so outrageous.

TrylobyteMar 20, 20154 votes

You also conveniently forget Veigar's stun lasted longer, potentially hit more people, had a MUCH longer effective range, could be used for zoning, and oh yeah, had a third of the cooldown.

ARC MalafideMar 20, 20152 votes

{quoted}

You also conveniently forget Veigar's stun lasted longer, potentially hit more people, had a MUCH longer effective range, could be used for zoning, and oh yeah, had a third of the cooldown.

Potentially Annie's hits the whole team, so that is a rather foolish statement. And yes, if the team wants to sit in a ring exactly the diameter of Veigar's ring he could stun the whole team. It is much more likely for a team to be dog-piled on one champ, making Annie's more likely to stun the whole team. Plus, her stun deals damage. Veigar's is longer, but the stun itself doesn't do damage, and takes one of his spell cooldown timers. (To be fair, annie also has 3 damage spells, but doesn't need to waste one casting cooldown to get her damage started).

In other words, they are actually extremely close in their limitations as far as the burst initiate goes. Veigar also needed to blow flash most times, as his max range to land stun on someone put him in range of Darius's yank, which isn't exactly a huge range. He only post "buff" received a longer range on his Q that keeps him out of range of nearly every melee harass in game.

The main difference is Annie's stun is a passive that can trigger off any of her abilities, which technically gives her stun a shorter cooldown than Veigar's anyhow. Then there is the whole bit about her having insane sustain in lane as well.

Both had instant stuns with large burst damage. The biggest difference is that Veigar's stun could be used for more utility purposes such as shutting down the enemy super high mobility. Annie's is a much stronger AE burst initiator, crushing most of the enemy team in one rotation. Veigar, if he managed to do a 'team stun' could only actually hurt 2 people tops. Most of his abilities are single target, and his one AE ability would not hit the entire team even if they were in a conga line along the boarder of his stun box.

In the end, Annie is a protected character. The fact there is really no counter-play for her is ignored for whatever reason. The item argument is the same for both characters, and as such holds no water. Characters are not balanced around items has been stated by Riot multiple times.

I still don't wish for Annie to be completely gutted like Veigar though. My favorite character was basically deleted from the game and it feels like crap. I wouldn't wish that feeling of hopelessness watching your favorite character being turned useless on another player.

Mikal PikalMar 20, 20151 votes

Why do people say that annie has no counterplay? She has short ranges and her stun is not always up and she has to use flash to engage properly. Is it because she has a stun? Then what is Taric's counterplay?

ConturbatioMar 20, 20154 votes

I don't understand what made Riot call a 0.25 delay "instant" technically that's not true. Veigar also relied a lot on his stun to pull off his combo or retreat from ganks...etc Same thing with Annie, she needs it to win trades since her range is so short, and to escape a few ganks. Both, Veigar and Annie are immobile burst mages, the difference between them was that Veigar was a single-target burst mage with a safer laning phase while Annie has AoE burst spells with more risk. These 2 champions are already outclassed by many mid laners, yet Rito guts Veigar out of nowhere just because his E is a direct counter to their LC$BiGPLAY$. And I think Annie is one of their next targets now....... THX MEDDLER !!!!

mvargusMar 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't understand what made Riot call a 0.25 delay "instant" technically that's not true. Veigar also relied a lot on his stun to pull off his combo or retreat from ganks...etc Same thing with Annie, she needs it to win trades since her range is so short, and to escape a few ganks. Both, Veigar and Annie are immobile burst mages, the difference between them was that Veigar was a single-target burst mage with a safer laning phase while Annie has AoE burst spells with more risk. These 2 champions are already outclassed by many mid laners, yet Rito guts Veigar out of nowhere just because his E is a direct counter to their LC$BiGPLAY$. And I think Annie is one of their next targets now....... THX MEDDLER !!!!

INCORRECT!!!!!!!

How many times does it need to be pointed out Veigar was being played in Korea as a GOD TIER SUPPORT just before the nerf. That was why he got his stun nerfed. He's supposed to be a burst mage not a stun/delete support and that was what he was becoming. Riot decided that it was too big of a meta break and reacted to prevent this break from becoming permanent.

This one had nothing to do with LCSBigplays or anything like that. it had to do with the fact that in Asia (where the majority of the LoL players are and where a huge amount of the money for the Esports comes from) was seeing Veigar used in a new way that was breaking the meta.

That was a similar reason to why Kassadin was nerfed. He had become a pick or ban champ in Korea due to his mobility and Riot moved to end that. I expect that they will be forced to do something similar to Katarina soon since she's in the 90% pick or ban category in multiple regions including Korea right now.

Ser SafirMar 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

INCORRECT!!!!!!!

How many times does it need to be pointed out Veigar was being played in Korea as a GOD TIER SUPPORT just before the nerf. That was why he got his stun nerfed. He's supposed to be a burst mage not a stun/delete support and that was what he was becoming. Riot decided that it was too big of a meta break and reacted to prevent this break from becoming permanent.

This one had nothing to do with LCSBigplays or anything like that. it had to do with the fact that in Asia (where the majority of the LoL players are and where a huge amount of the money for the Esports comes from) was seeing Veigar used in a new way that was breaking the meta.

That was a similar reason to why Kassadin was nerfed. He had become a pick or ban champ in Korea due to his mobility and Riot moved to end that. I expect that they will be forced to do something similar to Katarina soon since she's in the 90% pick or ban category in multiple regions including Korea right now.

God help us all, the meta was not preserved, veigar threatened the wonderful mobility meta, veigar was catching kallista.

LlaniteMar 20, 20154 votes

If you look for a reasonable explanation.

Annie does not have 1000 AP. Annie does not have stun 24/7. Annie cannot cast spell to farm while holding stun. Annie ult does not have 2.0 AP ratio.

ForgiveColourMar 20, 20154 votes

you just compared an across the screen non ultimate one click stun to a flash ult

BuCkeT SeiZureSMar 20, 20153 votes

I think riot is wrong to remove instant stuns. But they are correct in removing long range instant stuns. If they reworked veigars stun to be instant but close ranged, it would have been fine. The problem was a 2.5 second AOE stun that could reach over 1000 range. I wish riot would see that. If a zed jumps on you. He needs to have something to be wary of. Instead now he can get off his combo and leave before your stun is halfway finished

JustMyBassCannonMar 20, 20152 votes

You actually could not avoid being stunned if Veigar knew what he was doing.

And Annie hasn't been changed yet. That doesn't mean they don't plan to fix her in the near future, it means they haven't done it yet.

JunkοMar 20, 20151 votes

It had a .25 sec delay because of the cast time, and it was so fucking obvious when Veigar wanted to stun you. So you can simply suddenly turn around to make him miss his stun when you see him trying to get you.

JustMyBassCannonMar 20, 20151 votes

That's like saying, "Wait until Yi uses Alpha Strike before using your CC." You can't force Veigar to drop Event Horizon, so as long as he's patient and reactive enough, there's actually nothing you can do to outplay it when there is no real delay.

JunkοMar 21, 20151 votes

That's like saying, "Wait until Yi uses Alpha Strike before using your CC."

You do realize that's how you counter Yi right? You don't just throw your CC at him before he uses his Q because he dodges it all.

JustMyBassCannonMar 21, 20151 votes

"Let's ignore the other part of what he said."

You can't force him to use Alpha Strike any more than you could force Veigar to use Event Horizon unless you try to strike first. He can quite literally just walk up and start fighting without it, and wait until you try to fight back, or he can scare you into trying to strike first.

And I'm referring to when Event Horizon had no delay, for anyone else just now watching this.

JunkοMar 21, 20151 votes

He can quite literally just walk up and start fighting without it

No he can't. He needs Event Horizon to deal 1/2 of his damage, it's literally impossible to land W without it.

JustMyBassCannonMar 21, 20151 votes

You keep flip-flopping between talking about one or the other. Stay on topic.
Old Veigar just needed to time his E, and could wait until the right moment. New Veigar can just harass with Q, and save his E for the right time.

JunkοMar 21, 20151 votes

You said they are exactly the same including that they can both fight without using the spells. Veigar cannot, while Yi actually loses quite some DPS by not using his Q.

And there is no "right moment" for Veigar. If Zed used WEQW Veigar had to instantly E so Zed wouldn't kill him with his autoattacks. When Talon went EQW Veigar had to E so Talon wouldn't kill him, etc... Missed your E (you had to use it instatly so that was fairly easy to do)?, you died. Then if you wanted to attack somebody you had to E first, sacrificing your safety and if you missed you were dead, because while E's range is bigger than the range of most champions in the game, QWR all had fairly short range. Or the enemy laner just bought Mercury Treads(just sell it later) so even if he gets stunned, Veigar still can't land W or be safe.

JustMyBassCannonMar 21, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hurny Quilva,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h7Y4jPve,comment-id=00090000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-21T18:53:28.484+0000)

You said they are exactly the same including that they can both fight without using the spells. Veigar cannot, while Yi actually loses quite some DPS by not using his Q.

I said "That's like saying," not "They are exactly alike." Learn your linguistics. I see too many people disrespecting the precise art of language on a daily basis.

Yi does not actually lose much DPS by not using Alpha Strike, considering that most of his damage is dealt through basic attacks. Alpha Strike is worth barely more than one basic attack's worth of damage. It's like [insert champion name] saving [insert champion's ability name] for self-defense instead of using it for offense. You can almost literally put every single champion in that situation and name a particular ability to go with it.

Veigar can poke without his E. No, Dark Matter is not at all likely to land. Baleful Strike is still a respectable range skill shot. Before they reworked his E, he couldn't fight without his E, but he didn't need to engage the fight. He could counter-react and counter-initiate, and that was significantly stronger and better for him.

And there is no "right moment" for Veigar. If Zed used WEQW Veigar had to instantly E so Zed wouldn't kill him with his autoattacks. When Talon went EQW Veigar had to E so Talon wouldn't kill him, etc... Missed your E (you had to use it instatly so that was fairly easy to do)?, you died.

That's called counter-reaction or counter-initiation, and that's exactly what I said was Veigar's strength. Thank you for helping my point.

Then if you wanted to attack somebody you had to E first, sacrificing your safety and if you missed you were dead, because while E's range is bigger than the range of most champions in the game, QWR all had fairly short range. Or the enemy laner just bought Mercury Treads(just sell it later) so even if he gets stunned, Veigar still can't land W or be safe.

You didn't have to initiate a fight as Veigar. That's the thing you keep trying to ignore. Veigar, as a champion, can just walk around like the evil midget he is, farm his Q, and just wait until someone puts themselves in a position that allows him to react with an easy stun-then-kill rotation.

And, yes, people can miss his E. Just like people can miss Lee Sin's Q, Nidalee's Q, Xerath's entire kit, Lux's entire kit, Morgana's W, Zigg's R, and literally any other skill shot or AoE. It's not a matter of the bad players that miss; it's a matter of the players who master the mechanic and can almost guarantee a hit in every situation.

Annie ADCMar 20, 20152 votes

So, it is not about Annie. It is about Veigar.

Perhaps Veigar should be rebalanced to become better than his current state, than nerf another champion to be trashed, hmm?

Silents429Mar 20, 20152 votes

Whats with all the bitching about Annie now? Every thread gets comments explaining how she is fine, but somehow the posts about how she isn't fine still get upvoted.

ZyorhistMar 20, 20152 votes

Here is the real difference between Old-Veigar and any other mage you see, especially the all famed annie that everyone keeps mentioning.

Veigar is farming, opponent tries to contest the farming, veigar stun-delete.

Annie is farming, opponent tries to contest farming, annie has to build up to the stun. OR Annie is farming, gets her stun ready, has to stop farming so she doesn't use the stun. Opponent punishes her by denying her farm through not being able to be hit.

Other mages are farming, opponent tries to contest, other mages ATTEMPT to hit with cc and do something, opponent ATTEMPTS to dodge and trade.

None of those were options vs veigar, you either got stunned or trapped and deleted...no matter what

SleepyLionCubMar 20, 20151 votes

I'd much rather go against an annie than pre rework veig. His Stun is on a lower cd, and his damage scales with time, not just items like Annie

Malix FarwinMar 21, 20151 votes

List of champions that counter/go even annie: Ahri Cassiopeia Morgana Ziggs Velkoz Viktor Veigar Syndra Orianna Galio Anivia Karma Xerath

List of champions people play against her? Leblanc Katarina Yasuo Zed Talon Nidalee

yup...

Stars ShaperMar 21, 20151 votes

Xerath in no way counters her. She is too much tanky by her free spell to be shot down by Xerath.

Malix FarwinMar 21, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h7Y4jPve,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2015-03-21T21:10:47.325+0000)

Xerath in no way counters her. She is too much tanky by her free spell to be shot down by Xerath.

are you serious, i can tell you never played annie into xerath, any annie main will tell you he is one of the hardest counters she has. He outranges her so hard they she has a hard time csing under turret and if he buys 1 mr piece rather its grail component or abyssal component then flash tibbers wont do anything to him especially considering her farm will be pretty bad against a xerath.

OJ191Mar 22, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h7Y4jPve,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2015-03-21T21:08:20.019+0000)

List of champions that counter/go even annie:

List of champions people play against her?

yup...