It seems pretty broken to gain mana stacks by not using mana at all
EDIT: Im aware that Tear charges up on spellcasts regardless of their mana cost, Im questioning why Riot thinks thats a good idea
Abyssphere13 votesI don't really get the problem. Tear is built by heavy mana consumers so if Nidalee builds it you know she uses a lot of mana. It's then obvious that her cougar form being resourceless actually says a lot more about just how mana-intensive her human abilities are than it tells you about how "broken" she is.
That means that if Riot didn't want her to charge tear using her cougar abilities then they'd give her cougar form mana costs and drastically reduce her human mana costs to compensate. It'd make cougar Tear charging seem less silly but have zero impact on gameplay outside of making her spears and heals more spammable than ever, so...
And to be fair, Nidalee is no exception here. Elise is the same in her spider form, and every other mana champion with a free spell is also.
Brotha2 votesI don't really get the problem. Tear is built by heavy mana consumers so if Nidalee builds it you know she uses a lot of mana. It's then obvious that her cougar form being resourceless actually says a lot more about just how mana-intensive her human abilities are than it tells you about how "broken" she is.
That means that if Riot didn't want her to charge tear using her cougar abilities then they'd give her cougar form mana costs and drastically reduce her human mana costs to compensate. It'd make cougar Tear charging seem less silly but have zero impact on gameplay outside of making her spears and heals more spammable than ever, so...
And to be fair, Nidalee is no exception here. Elise is the same in her spider form, and every other mana champion with a free spell is also.
Know who used to be capable of charging tear without ever using mana? Jayce. His R used to charge the tear fast as fuck but riot realized their mistake and forced him to use the mana expendable parts of his kit to charge his tear. I don't see why Nidalee shouldn't get the same treatment considering she has aoe wave clear (no mana cost) as well as lane sustain with superior poke and free wards.
MrBuffington4 votesNidalee R doesn't charge Tear either. Other champions with abilities that cost no mana (ie. Kog W) still charge tear.
Durzaka3 votesNidalee R doesn't charge Tear either. Other champions with abilities that cost no mana (ie. Kog W) still charge tear.
Thats all fine and dandy.
Except Nidalee's courgar form cooldowns are practically nonexistent. A static 5 second cooldown on all 3 skills with no mana cost, vs. Kogmaw who has one skill on a 17 second cooldown that has no mana and stacks it.
If there ever was a specific case where i champions interaction with Tear should be changed, it is absolutely Nidalee.
junglerboy161 votesI would agree, except they had almost the same issue with Jayce (his ult used to charge tear even though it cost no mana), but they removed that interaction. Technically speaking, Nidalee shouldn't be able to stack tear because it is supposed to charge with mana usage, but her abilities use a loophole in the coding (the part that says spells charge it more broadly than just mana expenditures charge it). I wouldn't care at all about her having a loophole like that in her spells (since it doesn't seem drastically gamebreaking) except that Riot has shown they disapprove of this loophole in the instance of Jayce exploiting the exact same item flaw. I would argue they ought to remove that interaction from her cougar abilities for the sake of consistency and fairness between the two champions. For that matter, they should remove this loophole from all champions that have it, not just Nidalee, or else give it back to the champs they took it away from.
The other option of course would be to give her cougar abilities and Jayce's ult mana costs, and both could stack it like that, but you already pointed out the significant cons to that idea.
Abyssphere1 votesI would agree, except they had almost the same issue with Jayce (his ult used to charge tear even though it cost no mana), but they removed that interaction. Technically speaking, Nidalee shouldn't be able to stack tear because it is supposed to charge with mana usage, but her abilities use a loophole in the coding (the part that says spells charge it more broadly than just mana expenditures charge it). I wouldn't care at all about her having a loophole like that in her spells (since it doesn't seem drastically gamebreaking) except that Riot has shown they disapprove of this loophole in the instance of Jayce exploiting the exact same item flaw. I would argue they ought to remove that interaction from her cougar abilities for the sake of consistency and fairness between the two champions. For that matter, they should remove this loophole from all champions that have it, not just Nidalee, or else give it back to the champs they took it away from.
The other option of course would be to give her cougar abilities and Jayce's ult mana costs, and both could stack it like that, but you already pointed out the significant cons to that idea.
I just don't see the inconsistency you do, because the change they gave to Nidalee is exactly what they gave to Jayce. On a basic level they decided transforming wasn't something that should charge Tear and therefore it doesn't do it. The Tear interaction which just isn't inconsistent with anything - Her ult is treated the same as Jayce's and Elise's ult and every other non-mana ability she has is consistent with Evelynn, Elise, Olaf and others. If you change Nid's cougar form abilities to NOT charge Tear, suddenly she is the one who is not working like everyone else.
Jayce's ult is an ability that won't charge Tear and yes, it's an ability that costs no mana but before that (and more uniquely) it is a transform ability. If there were any examples of non-transform spells with no mana cost being excluded from charging Tear, I could get behind removing the charging from Nid's cougar costs. Right now however? Removing the charging from all of Nidalee's cougar abilities seems less like making things equal for Jayce and more like discriminating against Nidalee.
There is potentially a discussion to be held on Tear and how it charges, but this isn't it. The OP doesn't care about the balance of Tear - If he did he'd be talking about all of the champions who can charge Tear without using mana. This is a "Let's aimlessly nerf Nidalee" thread, and nothing more.
Durzaka2 votesThey removed it from Jayce.
They should remove it from Nidalee and Elise. Or else give their fucking forms actual mana costs.
Abyssphere1 votesThey removed it from Jayce.
They should remove it from Nidalee and Elise. Or else give their fucking forms actual mana costs.
They removed Jayce's transform ult charging it. They removed the same thing for Nidalee and Elise. Not seeing the unfairness.
Jayce's change wasn't an assault on no-mana cost spells charging Tear. It was only on transform ult.
Durzaka1 votesJayce has mana costs on both his forms. That is where the unfairness is.
Be consistent. Give Nidalee and Elise mana costs when transformed, remove Jayces Mana costs in melee, or stop letting nidalee charge Tear with her no cost short CD cougar form abilities.
Abyssphere2 votesJayce has mana costs on both his forms. That is where the unfairness is.
Be consistent. Give Nidalee and Elise mana costs when transformed, remove Jayces Mana costs in melee, or stop letting nidalee charge Tear with her no cost short CD cougar form abilities.
But Nidalee is not the only champion who can charge Tear with no-cost abilities. Evelynn and Olaf are other examples. This thread might have you believe that Nidalee charging Tear for free is inconsistent but it isn't. Cougar form abilities are consistent with every free ability in the game in charging Tear, except transform ults. Nidalee's transform is itself consistent with Jayce and Elise in not charging Tear. If you made her cougar form abilities NOT charge Tear, they would be the only abilities in the game not to charge it outside of transform ults. How is that making things consistent? It's actively creating exceptions.
As regards giving Nid and Elise mana costs in their melee forms, that is a good idea in the sense of making them more consistent with Jayce. That said there are reasons both of them have a free melee form, and a particularly costly human form in contrast. Both of them have had trouble in the past with preferring to stay exclusively in their human form at a distance and mana costs being particularly high for those forms but non-existent for the more risky form is a very effective way of encouraging stance changes. If you were to give Nidalee mana costs in cougar form (and lower ones in human form to compensate - It would be impossible to avoid doing so), she'd never go into melee form to trade again and would use her now even more spammable spears and heals to stay at a distance instead. So... not sure that's worth "well at least it'd be fair on Jayce". Elise would go back to bullying top lane with a cheap Neurotoxin, too.
Removing Jayce's melee form mana costs however could maybe work out OK. In fact it could probably be healthy for him.
Durzaka1 votesWhat skill of Olaf's charges tear? His E? If that is the case, that is pretty stupid and shouldnt happen.
But in the case of other champions like Kog'maw and Eve, their no cost skills are on LONG cooldowns (17 seconds and 15 respectively) and it is ONE skill in their kit.
Nidalee has 3 skills each on a 5 second CD she can spam for free. There are some instances in the game where only one champion needs to be changed for balance sake, and in this case, Nidalee is the only one who is truly broken being able to spam free abilities to get Tear stacks.
M Schumacher12 votescuz she needs every single thing possible in her kit
Raja Chachki6 votesto the downvoters: the wind wasn't the only thing that blew over your head today xD
CubedJustice2 votesThe Joke <-------
Their Heads <-------
aaronautumn7 votesit gains charges on spell casts and mana expenditure.
Kingsgrave1 votesit gains charges on spell casts and mana expenditure.
Why?
aaronautumn4 votesit used to just be spell casts but then they added mana expenditure because of champions like ashe anivia and swain who have toggles.
junglerboy161 votesThe issue in this case is that Riot is inconsistent on what they consider fair when talking about charging Tear. If all no-mana-cost abilities charged it, then I could care less about Nidalee having this, but Riot specifically changed several abilities (most notably Jayce's ult) to not interact with its charging, which show they either have double standards with champions, or simply need to update all these champions to either charge or not charge with free spells. Riot has to be definitive here for the sake of champion parity.
Wheatloaf3 votesActually, the case with Jayce isn't a double-standard, as his wasn't the only no-cost low-cooldown form-swap to get its tear stacking removed (Nidalee dropped that mechanic, as well).
junglerboy161 votesI didn't say it was the only ability that was treated like this, but it is a double standard to have some no cost spells charge it while others do not, regardless of whether Nidalee had her form swap not count anymore (especially considering that Jayce's ult is a real ability that doesn't just swap between kits, but actually has a damage component).
Errastas1 votesI'm all for Riot fixing this, then reducing her human mana costs which will be lovely.
MrBuffington1 votesSo Elise's ult doesn't have a damage component?
By the way, only one of Jayce's changes (ranged -> melee) actually has a damage component, the other just gives resistance shred, so should only one of his form changes count?
All I'm saying is that you're walking down a slippery slope, friend
Ariaflux3 votesThere is no inconsistency or double standard on Riot's part as no mana cost Tear charging is a mechanic that works for all champions, not just Nidalee. The only 3 skills that do not charge Tear are the 3 transform ultimates (Jayce, Elise, Nidalee).
junglerboy161 votesOf those three, Elise's and Nidalee's are simply swapping stats and kits, where Jayce's is an actual ability that enhances his attack after swapping. I would say Riot should definitively make either all abilities with an activation charge tear or make it only so mana expenditures charge tear.
MrBuffington2 votesTell me your definition of what an "actual ability" is and we can discuss that, because it just sounds to me like you're splitting hairs. Is Singed's ult an "actual ability"? Because all he's getting are stat bonuses. What about Draven's W? Warwick's W? Fiora's E? Tristana's Q? Mundo E? They're just changing stats, afterall.
By the way, the wiki lists Jayce, Nidalee, and Elise ultimate as "toggle shapeshift abilities", so I'm curious as to what you mean by "actual", since I could just as easily argue that Jayce's ult just gives him "stat bonuses", some of which are temporary and only apply to his next attack.
junglerboy161 votesMy reasoning is that Jayce's ult is an activateable ability, while Nidalee's and Elise's are toggles. Jayce's has actual impact when used independently from the rest of his kit, where Nidalee's or Elise's don't really.
I guess it is kind of splitting hairs though, sorry.
MrBuffington1 votesElise gets spiderlings and on-hit magic damage on auto attacks, Nidalee used to get bonus MS, but they pushed that into her passive (but could honestly have kept it as part of her R, since she has it at lvl 1 anyways).
Sorry if I sound kind of pissy, I just thought we were done with the Nidalee QQ threads.
junglerboy161 votesYeah, I'm not QQing, I'm just saying that Riot needs to either make all no cost abilities trigger tear stacks, or none of them. I don't particularly care that the OP brought this up about Nidalee, I would say the same thing if he said this about how Kog's W which no longer costs mana still charges tear. All I want is consistency, not nerfs or buffs for a specific champion
MrBuffington1 votesIt's a different kind of consistency, it only applies to form change abilities; the mana cost is irrelevant (IIRC this was changes specifically because of Jayce, because he typically spams R when going back to lane because he gets a free speed boost). In fact, Tear charging on ability use actually predates it charging on mana use; the latter was added for champions with mana-consuming toggles like Swain and Anivia.
Skia Asteri6 votesIt also charges for the no cost abilities of everyone else too, such as 
W.
Fredart3 votesWell, Its based on ability activation so you activate an ability and you get bonus mana for it. christ does anyone read the description of the items these days?
Kingsgrave2 votesWell, Its based on ability activation so you activate an ability and you get bonus mana for it. christ does anyone read the description of the items these days?
Im aware why it literally happens, Im questioning why they allow it.
TenSlashTen3 votesThis guy makes shitty QQ threads all day about champions he can't even read the kits of. Downvote move on.
Kingsgrave1 votesThis guy makes shitty QQ threads all day about champions he can't even read the kits of. Downvote move on.
I've read the kit. I'm questioning why Riot allows this to happen.
Kazaashi2 votesI can think of a bunch of better items for Nid than Tear. If she builds it, she is majorly gimping her early dmg.
Jayce needes Tear as a core item.
Riot made the change that FORM shifting abilities don't proc a tear charge. Manaless abilites still do, which the should.
NinjaFifer1 votesI really could have sworn that Riot fixed that kind of thing a while back. I'm pretty sure they just blanket stated that Tear only gets charged through mana expenditure. Am I missing something here?
Kingsgrave3 votesI really could have sworn that Riot fixed that kind of thing a while back. I'm pretty sure they just blanket stated that Tear only gets charged through mana expenditure. Am I missing something here?
They only ever changed it for form switches iirc
ShockRock1 votesThis is because of how the tears ability doesn't stack on mana costs specifically, but on spell casts as well as mana use, not that I don't think it's really stupid
Only Play Darius1 votesREREAD THE PASSIVE
