Apdo talks about the support problem in the game

Rexxiee·Apr 10, 2018·54 votes·18,918 views

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/89x8s1/apdodopa_youtube_qa_translation/

Yes i linked a reddit thread, but i feel like this is important.

Like he pretty much summed what has been the problem with bot lane this year, supports being buffed and buffed into broken levels.

"but we have to make supports broken or else nobody plays them!!!"

Can we not ruin the game for everyone else thats not part of bot lane because you want supports to feel "special", like please? What about solo laners? Do they deserve to be useless and have no carry potential because supports need to be made broken? The worst feeling in the entire game is go 6-0 as a top laner, smash your lane as a carry champion, but then their 0-0-1 support completes 2 items as you get 1 and now you cannot get near their squishies or team without dying while cclocked or exhausted, and even if you get into them redemption/locket + their kits so they dont take damage, its beyond retarded, it takes away the reward from winning 1v1 and takes away solo carry potential.

Why do items like locket and redemption, who scale ridiculously hard in team fights and are very strong cost about 2k gold? Like one of the cheapest complete items on a class that gets free gold by existing, just why??

Get a clue riot, this is probably the best solo q player in the world, when he says that supports needs significant nerfs maybe you should LISTEN TO HIM and DO SOMETHING (btw everyone in high elo pretty much agrees with this, even support mains).

112 Comments

EedatApr 10, 201849 votes

You mean you can't buff a class for 4 years straight and not run into problems?

AirKingNeoApr 10, 20188 votes

https://i.imgur.com/zhXLbxf.png

Athenes LuluApr 10, 201822 votes

I'm a support main, haven't actively played in a while, and I'd believe him.

What's even funnier is support "mains" here blamed ADCs for being overpowered. It's some great irony.

saltranApr 10, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h0gIM8i0,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-04-10T06:32:19.255+0000)

I'm a support main, haven't actively played in a while, and I'd believe him.

What's even funnier is support "mains" here blamed ADCs for being overpowered. It's some great irony.

I mean, everyone here blamed adcs, not only supp mains.

Handin Out NapsApr 10, 201813 votes

I've been saying supports are broken and adcs are just a little strong. but going against ths circle jerk is kind of pointless. Better to just watch them cry over the wrong thing.

Daddy Tie Me UpApr 10, 201810 votes

Yeah thats because people are blind to support buffs. Caitlyn and Jonx creeped up to top tier adcs this patch, despite getting 0 buffs. What changed? Relic shield, melee support item got nerfed. No other change to bot lane. What was the result? Janna Lulu Sona Soraka are overperforming again. What does that have to do with jinx and cait? They both get way too much power from Enchanters. And thats the for over whole season. Its not like Zed cannot 1v1 Adcies, as Zed mains claim. Its not Darius cant chase down solo adc. However Janna speeding up Adc for ridiculous amounts, shields for half of their hp, AS buffs from censer, that all makes them unkillable. Enchanters should be weakest type of support for they require the least amount of direct gameplay. And its not even funny that Janna Soraka Lulu and maybe Nami are supports that all together add up to over 60% pick rate in high elo. Leona is basically non existent Threshes win rate drop above gold and reaches almost Bronze values in Diamond, Braum is the only melee support that is competing with Janna reskinned Jana v1 reskinned Janna v2 Reskinned Janna v3. AND and braum is getting nerfed next patch. It is not ADC meta. Its support meta.

cinderhurstApr 10, 20183 votes

To be fair ADC are a bit strong, but when assasins or bruisers claim it’s impossible to kill them 1v1 is boogus

Daddy Tie Me UpApr 10, 20185 votes

It aint bogus, some adcies are very well capable of 1v1s consitently, Vayne, Kai Sa, Lucian, Tristana, Gravesm, Corki. What they have in common though? Aside from Tristana they are all garbage paired up with Enchanters. Well not garbage. They arent that good paired with them. Where is the season 3 and 4 where both adc and support had to be good in order to win? Now you can have totaly braindead ADC, all you need is to spam shield with censer and they get stats worth oh thousands of gold for mere 80 mana cost. I want back season 4 where saying that I main adc wasnt equal to saying I eat glue.

ApocalypsicApr 10, 20184 votes

Any time I point out that the enchanter class is toxic design I get downvoted to literal hell.

Teridax68Apr 10, 20184 votes

My personal take on this is that ADCs are indeed too strong altogether, but the problem is that they've mostly remained at the same power level for the past few months now, whereas supports have continually received large buffs to their itemization and income. Looking at how the recent Twitch and Tristana nerfs only peeled one layer of the onion to reveal two more pick-or-ban marksmen right behind them, I'd say we probably shouldn't hold back on nerfing whichever marksmen are overperforming right now, but I also very much agree that we need to stop deluding ourselves into thinking that supports are in a perfect state either.

At this point, now that supports are starting to reach income levels comparable to solo laners, it might be a good time to also put their item costs and scalings on the same level as everyone else, i.e. by increasing the cost of support items, whose power is already ludicrous without even factoring in their excessive cheapness, and by shifting a portion of the damage of mage supports like Brand away from their bases, and onto their AP scalings, so that they can stop annihilating squishy duo lanes with just one or two AP items early on.

Heckin SupportApr 10, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h0gIM8i0,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-04-10T06:32:19.255+0000)

I'm a support main, haven't actively played in a while, and I'd believe him.

What's even funnier is support "mains" here blamed ADCs for being overpowered. It's some great irony.

I'm a support main, and I don't blame ADC. But I do think Junglers have way too much of an influence. The amount of times that a lane/game has been won simply due to a much better Jungler is insane.

Little PadawanApr 10, 20182 votes

Absolutely right. Supports are retarded right now and people complain it's adcs. Support main vs autofilled support is HUGE right now. Not only Support has a huge impact on the botlane matchup , lets say ~70% compared to adcs but also botlane impact the game soooooo so MUCH.

BUFF Janna pls

After the high risk high reward new ADC Kaisa [FAT SHIELD ULT BTW] what can we expect from the one and only Riot Games

Teridax68Apr 10, 201816 votes

I think the relevant problem here is that, despite the fact that supports have received increases overall to their gold income, they have not received comparable nerfs to the cheap cost of their items, or to their strong base power. Apdo himself mentions that the most frustrating part of dealing with supports is that they can hit their items sooner than everyone else, and turn into absolute monsters in the process, and it's this excessively fast pacing that I think is responsible for supports coming on too strong. Because of this, I feel the way to go should be to raise the cost of support items so that they match their income, and thereby get closer to a more reasonable pacing between their power spikes. Additionally, because mage supports are also now perfectly capable of purchasing full AP items, it might also help to take some of the power out of their bases, and put it into their scalings, as happened to Annie and Fiddlesticks back in Season 4 and its own increases to support income: one of the big sources of frustration in bot lane is that mage supports often tend to chunk for massive amounts of damage with only one or two damage items, and so specifically because they were intentionally given strong bases to offset the lack of scaling that used to be part and parcel of supporting. Now that support income is reaching comparable levels with junglers and top laners (which I think is a good thing, as I personally don't think supports should be made to rely on low income), it should be a good time to finally break the need to give champions in the support role overly cheap items and high bases.

Quil EvrythingApr 10, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I think the relevant problem here is that, despite the fact that supports have received increases overall to their gold income, they have not received comparable nerfs to the cheap cost of their items

uhh, yeah. they have. it may be all fun and gravy at diamond level or something, but down here in the REAL world. support items have been nerfed to hell. I used to be able to play sona, and end up doing the most damage half my games. Now I'm almost always last or 2nd last. A lot of that is due to my primary support item, based on spell thief edge, now buildig into utter CRAP, as far as AP value goes.

"blah blah blah annie and fiddlesticks.." dude, neither annie nor fiddlesticks are real supports. Completely irrelevant. If you're going to argue, use relevant examples. and as a person who plays support a lot, I say screw that, (real supports) need to be RE BUFFED.

Undo the nerf this season!

Teridax68Apr 10, 201810 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quil Evrything,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h0gIM8i0,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-04-10T04:41:27.584+0000)

If you're going to argue, use relevant examples.

Just picking up on this real quick, because I did in fact use relevant examples, whereas you did not: Annie and Fiddlesticks may not be supports now, but they were top-tier supports back in Season 4, which was the context in which I cited them. In case you weren't there then, Preseason 4 was a time where support itemization and income got a huge revamp, with supports receiving a lot more gold in every match. Because one of the consequences of this is that it allowed mages to go into the support role and still pick up a few AP items, mages like Annie and Fiddlesticks, who had much higher bases and lower scalings back then, soared in popularity bot lane, to the point of becoming legitimate terrors. In their case, the only way to properly balance them around this new gold income was to nerf their bases and increase their scalings, balance changes that have persisted to this day. If you want a more modern equivalent, Brand and Malzahar (at least prior to his recent nerfs) have benefited from the same phenomenon, and in Malz's case, he has already been balanced out of bot lane after causing a lot of frustration there.

By contrast, the one example you cited was your own frustration at how you can't seem able to top the damage charts anymore as Sona, an enchanter who is not even supposed to be a primary damage-dealer in the first place. How exactly does this relate to the bigger picture of support power and income?

Quil EvrythingApr 10, 20181 votes

there's a difference between "played as a support" vs "IS a support champ". annie and fiddle are not support champs.

I brought up sona damage, to point out that the call for "nerf supports" is redundant, bcause they ve already taken a nerf recently

Teridax68Apr 10, 20183 votes

Support is both a position and a class, so I can understand that there can be confusion there, but to clarify, Annie and Fiddle were played in the support position, which is what is relevant when the subject is support income, i.e. the amount of gold (and experience, though that part isn't especially relevant here) that a champion can hope to earn in the support position. By contrast, Sona is a part of the support class, which itself typically goes into the support position. Effectively, when the subject is the nerfing of supports, most people are primarily talking about the support position, which includes both the support class, and the set of all other champions that go into the support position, namely mages like Brand. This means that, in this particular case, people aren't necessarily advocating to directly nerf Sona's kit, though they are frequently advocating for support items, several of which she buys, to be nerfed, or for support income, which affects everyone in the support position, Sona included, to be reduced.

KarunamonApr 12, 20183 votes

In other words - the Sejuani special. Direct nerf plus later item nerfs = unplayable champ.

ChaddyFantomeApr 10, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I think the relevant problem here is that, despite the fact that supports have received increases overall to their gold income, they have not received comparable nerfs to the cheap cost of their items, or to their strong base power. Apdo himself mentions that the most frustrating part of dealing with supports is that they can hit their items sooner than everyone else, and turn into absolute monsters in the process, and it's this excessively fast pacing that I think is responsible for supports coming on too strong.

I agree with this 100% and have been saying this ever since the Sightstone changes especially.

Additionally, because mage supports are also now perfectly capable of purchasing full AP items, it might also help to take some of the power out of their bases, and put it into their scalings, as happened to Annie and Fiddlesticks back in Season 4 and its own increases to support income: one of the big sources of frustration in bot lane is that mage supports often tend to chunk for massive amounts of damage with only one or two damage items, and so specifically because they were intentionally given strong bases to offset the lack of scaling that used to be part and parcel of supporting.

This bit i feel has more to do with the rune changes than anything, especially with things like Summon Aery, Sudden impact and Guardian in the game right now.

Teridax68Apr 10, 20181 votes

This is fair, the new runes have also allowed supports to go for build paths they previously couldn't really access, namely by adding a lot more damage to the mix. I also agree that Season 4 isn't a perfect comparison to the current situation, because the game was very different back then, as was the pacing and balancing of bot lane (early sustain was a lot higher at the time, for example). Because of this, there is very likely more than just one avenue to explore when tackling the balance of supports: looking into certain runes like the ones you mentioned, plus runes like Manaflow Band, Magical Footwear, Scorch, Cosmic Insight, Arcane Comet, and so on (there's this common rune setup that's practically identical on many of the most popular enchanters around right now), and specifically focusing on having more damage-oriented runes provide less baseline damage and more scaling, could be one way of toning down the state of poke in bot lane, while making those runes more palatable on solo laners (Comet's fine on most champions though as is, imo). With that said, if the issue with supports is specifically with the way they spike too quickly with items, then I feel it's inevitable that support itemization is going to require some changes as well, whether it would be increasing the cost of support builds, nerfing the power of their items, at least when purchased early, lowering the baseline power of supports in exchange for more stat scaling, or toning down the role's entire income (or some combination of these).

ChaddyFantomeApr 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

This is fair, the new runes have also allowed supports to go for build paths they previously couldn't really access, namely by adding a lot more damage to the mix. I also agree that Season 4 isn't a perfect comparison to the current situation, because the game was very different back then, as was the pacing and balancing of bot lane (early sustain was a lot higher at the time, for example). Because of this, there is very likely more than just one avenue to explore when tackling the balance of supports: looking into certain runes like the ones you mentioned, plus runes like Manaflow Band, Magical Footwear, Scorch, Cosmic Insight, Arcane Comet, and so on (there's this common rune setup that's practically identical on many of the most popular enchanters around right now), and specifically focusing on having more damage-oriented runes provide less baseline damage and more scaling, could be one way of toning down the state of poke in bot lane, while making those runes more palatable on solo laners (Comet's fine on most champions though as is, imo). With that said, if the issue with supports is specifically with the way they spike too quickly with items, then I feel it's inevitable that support itemization is going to require some changes as well, whether it would be increasing the cost of support builds, nerfing the power of their items, at least when purchased early, lowering the baseline power of supports in exchange for more stat scaling, or toning down the role's entire income (or some combination of these).

Income seems like a good place to look after runes, as supports obtained a lot of free gold and and effective gold they didn't have previously with the integration of Bandit into the income items (which iirc was already removed) among other things and the removal of sightstone making them 800g up. Future's market is also notably effective on them do to the low cost of items along with their low income, allowing them to somewhat compensate for said low income more than most imo.

I'm not a fan if simply making their items more expensive as all that would do is phase them out in favor of Mage supports like Brand and Annie who just Build like a discount midlaner. Making Support items more expensive won't solve anything.

Personally i'd rather just see Sightstone and the old eye items come back, but assuming Riot refuses to do this, Gold income on Support items is gonna have to be toned down earlier into the game.

Summon Aery honestly needs to just have its Shield (base and scaling) looked at and and Base damage reduced in favor of scaling.

Imo, one of the biggest mistakes Riot made was the basestat compensations they did for champions across the board, since they feel necessary when trees give champions some base stat bonuses already. It is imho the main cause of the bulk of balance issues throughout the whole season.

Teridax68Apr 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I'm not a fan if simply making their items more expensive as all that would do is phase them out in favor of Mage supports like Brand and Annie who just Build like a discount midlaner. Making Support items more expensive won't solve anything.

I think we're already seeing many supports operate at an income level comparable to mid laners, or at least at a high enough income for mage supports to go full AP, yet enchanters are still as strong as ever, so I'm not sure that would really lead to that kind of problem.

ChaddyFantomeApr 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I think we're already seeing many supports operate at an income level comparable to mid laners, or at least at a high enough income for mage supports to go full AP, yet enchanters are still as strong as ever, so I'm not sure that would really lead to that kind of problem.

Except this is strictly false. All one needs to do is actually look at the stats and numbers.

Mid Laners are being played support because of the influx in gold. Your reasoning doesn't make much sense.

Teridax68Apr 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Except this is strictly false. All one needs to do is actually look at the stats and numbers.

Except... it's really not? Take a look at Brand's support build, for example, and you'll see that, with perhaps the exception of his vision item, his entire build is full AP. The same goes for Zilean and Zyra. What exactly were you looking at?

{quoted}

Mid Laners are being played support because of the influx in gold. Your reasoning doesn't make much sense.

... when did I say otherwise? Indeed, mages are being played in bot lane thanks to higher income. You seem to think this is an inherently bad thing, which is perhaps the part here that doesn't make much sense.

ChaddyFantomeApr 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Except... it's really not? Take a look at Brand's support build, for example, and you'll see that, with perhaps the exception of his vision item, his entire build is full AP. The same goes for Zilean and Zyra. What exactly were you looking at?

... when did I say otherwise? Indeed, mages are being played in bot lane thanks to higher income. You seem to think this is an inherently bad thing, which is perhaps the part here that doesn't make much sense.

Well, ignoring the fact that their core item, item 3116 is only 2600, which is comparable with most Support itemisation in terms of price, that's exactly my point. These characters are already building full AP despite these items being more expensive, and can compete in terms of viability with actual supports.

Why is it then would you seem it okay/normal/necessary to inflate the normal support item costs? All that would do is phase them out all together.

Enchanters aren't even the strongest supports right now, they are the weakest, with tank and Mage supports leading the pack.

... when did I say otherwise? Indeed, mages are being played in bot lane thanks to higher income. You seem to think this is an inherently bad thing, which is perhaps the part here that doesn't make much sense.

To an extend it is, not because they shouldn't see play in the lane, but because they can and will easily phase them out of the lane. The support role by its very nature and design is centered around maximising efficiency with the lowest income influx. That's why the role exists to begin with. If The support role is making money competitive with Solo lanes, or at least enough that it is able to sustain threats as potent than solo lanes, then actually using a solo lane for them is redundant and riskier, since supports typically have the safest and most automated forms of income,

This has happened before tons of times. Supports get phased out by mages that just build damage.

The issue isn't that i don't think these champs have a place bot lane at all, but that the option can and should come with its own set of tradeoffs, and in the case of Mage supports, its the lower income, making it take longer for them to come online than if they were a solo laner.

If you raise regular supports item costs, all that will happen is the value of having a regular support over just a discount mid becomes non-existent, as has happened in the past.

Teridax68Apr 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Well, ignoring the fact that their core item, is only 2600, which is comparable with most Support itemisation in terms of price, that's exactly my point. These characters are already building full AP despite these items being more expensive, and can compete in terms of viability with actual supports.

Why is it then would you seem it okay/normal/necessary to inflate the normal support item costs? All that would do is phase them out all together.

It wouldn't? The issue being discussed, as mentioned by Apdo, is that support items are so cheap relative to support income that it's causing many supports to spike far too early, which is making them far too powerful right now. If there is one issue with bot lane mages (and we're not seeing every mage go bot), it's that their bases are far too generous, which is causing them to deal too much damage across the board even when not scaling. I specifically mentioned affecting both enchanters and bot lane mages so that mages like Brand also have damage shifted from bases to scalings, so that they would be more comfortable both mid and bot.

{quoted}

Enchanters aren't even the strongest supports right now, they are the weakest, with tank and Mage supports leading the pack.

There are exactly three enchanters with a win rate below 50% (Karma, Sona and Taric), and four with a pick rate below 10% (Karma at 8.32%, Nami at 6.84%, Sona at 2.59%, and Taric at 2.39%). Janna, Lulu and even Soraka all have win rates over 50% and pick rates over 10%, and this is after Janna's nerfs. Janna is also still a competitive mainstay. Meanwhile, tank supports like Braum and Tahm Kench both have win rates under 50% (49.72% and 46.7%, respectively), and play rates under 10% (7.64% and 5.96%, respectively), while Brand, Zilean and Zyra, in spite of their >50% win rates, all have pick rates under 5%. Judging by these statistics, your claim here is false.

{quoted}

To an extend it is, not because they shouldn't see play in the lane, but because they can and will easily phase them out of the lane.

... when? This is what people have been saying since the support income changes in Season 4. When have traditional supports ever been phased out in the game's entire history?

{quoted}

The support role by its very nature and design is centered around maximising efficiency with the lowest income influx.

Isn't supporting about supporting your team? Supports have plenty of income now, and while that has generated some balance issues due to a lot of adjustments, it's been altogether well-received by most people playing support. Why exactly do supports have to be poor again?

{quoted}

That's why the role exists to begin with. If The support role is making money competitive with Solo lanes, or at least enough that it is able to sustain threats as potent than solo lanes, then actually using a solo lane for them is redundant and riskier, since supports typically have the safest and most automated forms of income,

I'm not sure I understand this, because the "safest and most automated forms of income" for supports come from their gold-generation items, which either require an ally to be present, or anti-synergize with last-hitting, neither of which is appropriate for a solo lane. I can understand that solo lanes feel less impactful than bot lane right now, but mostly because both marksmen and supports have both been power creeped a ton, a problem that would be alleviated by raising the cost of support itemization.

{quoted}

This has happened before tons of times. Supports get phased out by mages that just build damage.

When? If this has happened "tons of times" before, it should not be hard to cite even just one example.

{quoted}

The issue isn't that i don't think these champs have a place bot lane at all, but that the option can and should come with its own set of tradeoffs, and in the case of Mage supports, its the lower income, making it take longer for them to come online than if they were a solo laner.

If that's the tradeoff, then what's the gain? What exactly is so valuable about going bot that it should force a tradeoff when migrating from mid?

{quoted}

If you raise regular supports item costs, all that will happen is the value of having a regular support over just a discount mid becomes non-existent, as has happened in the past.

Why? I've seen this argument used a ton of times, but in practice it doesn't hold water, for the simple fact that support contributions are consistently useful regardless of their itemization. Item-independent power is how many supports were built from the ground up, and enchanters like Janna and Lulu are incredibly strong simply because of the sheer amount of utility they bring to the table. This isn't something mages bring, and this is in fact what has caused enchanters to dominate for quite some time now. Have you forgotten last year? Beyond just the Ardent Censer abuse, enchanters were popular purely because they enabled marksmen, and as long as there are champions in need of allied utility, supports will never not be relevant.

MizayaApr 10, 201811 votes

The funny thing is that some of the most high-impact support plays we've seen were way back in the past. Remember MadLife's Thresh? Xpecial at MLG in S3 destroying Saintvicious with Thresh? Even Wolf's insane Zyra engage last year at MSI. Then there's Gosu Pepper/Edward way back.

So what's the point? The point is that _there has always been skill expression on supports _. It's not as if Riot suddenly gave supports playmaking abilities in the past couple seasons. Nope. They opted, instead, to throw extra gold at them, and to give them items that throw stats--Locket, Ardent Censer, Redemption, etc. ALL defensive in nature, mind you. I would go as far to say that this makes it harder for supports to make offensive plays like they have in the past.

This is the problem with how Riot has changed supports. It doesn't make me want to play support any more personally, anyways. I've never been a good engage type of player, and I don't see the appeal in winning through spamming shields, heals, and other sort of defensive tools.

egOrhythmApr 10, 20184 votes

{quoted}

The funny thing is that some of the most high-impact support plays we've seen were way back in the past. Remember MadLife's Thresh? Xpecial at MLG in S3 destroying Saintvicious with Thresh? Even Wolf's insane Zyra engage last year at MSI. Then there's Gosu Pepper/Edward way back.

So what's the point? The point is that _there has always been skill expression on supports _. It's not as if Riot suddenly gave supports playmaking abilities in the past couple seasons. Nope. They opted, instead, to throw extra gold at them, and to give them items that throw stats--Locket, Ardent Censer, Redemption, etc. ALL defensive in nature, mind you. I would go as far to say that this makes it harder for supports to make offensive plays like they have in the past.

This is the problem with how Riot has changed supports. It doesn't make me want to play support any more personally, anyways. I've never been a good engage type of player, and I don't see the appeal in winning through spamming shields, heals, and other sort of defensive tools.

Yeah except now its: Janna item 3190 E - "skills"

I absolutely HATE playing shieldsluts and healsluts like Janna and Lulu but I HAVE to because if I don't the enemy team will and we auto-lose because the enemy carry now has 1K worth of shields and is getting constantly healed on top of their life steal.

Like... I just want to play Braum again... I miss Braum.... but I can't play him.

I hate this fucking meta. It's cancerous to the nth degree.

saltranApr 10, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Yeah except now its: E - "skills"

I absolutely HATE playing shieldsluts and healsluts like Janna and Lulu but I HAVE to because if I don't the enemy team will and we auto-lose because the enemy carry now has 1K worth of shields and is getting constantly healed on top of their life steal.

Like... I just want to play Braum again... I miss Braum.... but I can't play him.

I hate this fucking meta. It's cancerous to the nth degree.

But...Braum is strong right now

ShåwnApr 10, 201810 votes

Dont worry the 5 damage nerf on Janna's W in the PBE right now will fix it.

. . . . . . . . 5 damage

SasogwaApr 10, 20182 votes

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXteaatWsAAm24m.jpg

treblotmailApr 10, 20188 votes

Support items are so cheap because their gold sources are more unreliable than other roles. Relic shield supports only have a set amount of charges. Ancient coin users have a limited amount of coins per wave. Spellthief users have to be around enemies to gain gold. Meanwhile, other roles can just farm the jungle/minions.

Greedy PikachuApr 10, 20187 votes

[deleted]

ChaddyFantomeApr 10, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Greedy Pikachu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h0gIM8i0,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-04-10T09:50:09.046+0000)

I think it's only the shield supports who are overbearing though

Even tho they are factually the weakest of the supports currently while tank supports roam rampid?

ExternalLinkApr 10, 20185 votes

Passive gold generation definitely needs to be nerfed. (should've been obvious that something was wrong when even Junglers/Tops were building spellthiefs/ancient coin) Support Items need to be reworked and some frankly need to be straight up deleted. Things like Redemption? Okay, cool - it has clear strengths and weaknesses and both requires and allows for agency, both from the user, the recipient, and the enemy. Shit like Ardent Censor and Locket? Needs to be flat out removed from the game or nerfed into oblivion tbh. They're just disgusting stat checks that help break champions that are already stat checkers.

GlilabApr 11, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Passive gold generation definitely needs to be nerfed. (should've been obvious that something was wrong when even Junglers/Tops were building spellthiefs/ancient coin) Support Items need to be reworked and some frankly need to be straight up deleted. Things like Redemption? Okay, cool - it has clear strengths and weaknesses and both requires and allows for agency, both from the user, the recipient, and the enemy. Shit like Ardent Censor and Locket? Needs to be flat out removed from the game or nerfed into oblivion tbh. They're just disgusting stat checks that help break champions that are already stat checkers.

ah yes, lets just remove all these items, give even LESS variety of support items, and watch all support mains cry. amazing idea [slayer-jinx-unamused]

ExternalLinkApr 11, 20181 votes

{quoted}

ah yes, lets just remove all these items, give even LESS variety of support items, and watch all support mains cry. amazing idea [slayer-jinx-unamused]

New ones with more skill expression and windows of power (and counterplay) can be added.

GlilabApr 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

New ones with more skill expression and windows of power (and counterplay) can be added.

dude, i would be really happy if riot made some new, unique and cool items for support... but the thing is WOULD they? i mean i dont trust them that much, what if they make things worse than they already are? personally i find the support items to be fine rn, maybe im biased, but still.

ChaddyFantomeApr 21, 20182 votes

{quoted}

New ones with more skill expression and windows of power (and counterplay) can be added.

So Supports should just not be allowed to build stats, like every other role now? um.. Why?

ExternalLinkApr 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

So Supports should just not be allowed to build stats, like every other role now? um.. Why?

Exactly, because it doubles down on the fact that most ADCs stat check their opponent and makes them even more obnoxious than they already are. Or maybe we should just double the stats in every Bruisers kit instead?

ChaddyFantomeApr 25, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Exactly, because it doubles down on the fact that most ADCs stat check their opponent and makes them even more obnoxious than they already are. Or maybe we should just double the stats in every Bruisers kit instead?

You dodged my question. Why shouldn't Supports be allowed to build stats like every other role? If the problem is adc, then address ADC or the synergy of roles.

TrevorAluApr 11, 20184 votes

As a support, I really don't feel like they're broken.

Colonel JApr 10, 20183 votes

Wait... people think supports are op? LMAO!

The only people who believe this are bruiser top maibs like Trashinshin.

egOrhythmApr 10, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Colonel J,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h0gIM8i0,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-04-10T09:54:30.826+0000)

Wait... people think supports are op? LMAO!

The only people who believe this are bruiser top maibs like Trashinshin.

Lulu item 3107 item 3109 item 3190 and then an R on top of whoever you're trying to kill.

But supports aren't op. You fokin wot m8.

LeetriApr 10, 20183 votes

I mean, I would expect a champion that is meant to protect another champion would be able to do their job if they blew their entire kit at once. What's the point in even having a support in the game if you using everything in your kit doesn't do anything?

Acheron16Apr 10, 20182 votes

I don't understand why support items are so cheap, yet so powerful.

I understand that support gold income is more unreliable, but their items are easily 1000 gold cheaper than common items while still being insanely cost efficient for their price.

ChaddyFantomeApr 21, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I don't understand why support items are so cheap, yet so powerful.

I understand that support gold income is more unreliable, but their items are easily 1000 gold cheaper than common items while still being insanely cost efficient for their price.

Support items HAVE to be cheap or else supports would never get to buy them Since supports get less gold than everyone else.

cinderhurstApr 10, 20181 votes

I feel like enchanters are the problem. Supports like Alistar are fine.

saltranApr 10, 20183 votes

{quoted}

I feel like enchanters are the problem. Supports like Alistar are fine.

Funny because Apdo says that the strongest supps are not enchanters, he claims that the tank ones are the most problematic for how aburdly high stats (that allows to early dive easy) they have and also peel and engage they have.

ChaddyFantomeApr 10, 20184 votes

{quoted}

I feel like enchanters are the problem. Supports like Alistar are fine.

Even tho it's the opposite. Complaining about Enchanters is honestly just a meme when Tank supports LIKE Alistar are the ones ruling the meta all season.