Sejuani used to have a permaslow now she doesn't even have a slow in her basic spells

Moody P·Nov 9, 2018·79 votes·18,655 views

Feels bad, man.

72 Comments

Warlord RhinarkNov 9, 201843 votes

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nGioNov 9, 201833 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gwqUAk7N,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-11-09T13:23:03.848+0000)

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Zac - Can I come too?

ﬂooNov 9, 20184 votes

Y tho

nGioNov 9, 201819 votes

{quoted}

Y tho

Why revert Zac? So that he could go back to jungling at 50%, or be allowed to lane again. Not a Zac main, I see. AP bruisers are already so few, and losing Zac and Sej so that they could be jungle supports for LCS was a shit move.

ﬂooNov 9, 20182 votes

I mean AP bruisers aren't supported by itemization nearly as much as any other class anyway. I myself might not be a Zac main but I love to play him whenever he's available in aram or occasionally in normals. Ik my voice might not be as comparable, but I got a good friend who's a Zac main and he loves the new one. His old Q was bland, ult I can see if someone likes either more.

nGioNov 9, 20182 votes

{quoted}

His old Q was bland, ult I can see if someone likes either more.

Yeah it was, but it was essential for him to fulfill his role top lane as an AP sustain bruiser. It was his poke with an attached slow, and it was a good aoe tool for farming. The new Q is nice, but he had to give up damage, sustain, and wave clear to get that and the new R, which was a horrible trade off. He hovered around 50% win rate for over 2 years, and there just wasn't a good reason to completely change his identity as a bruiser. He was my main in ranked 5's and 3's, and now I just don't enjoy playing him as a jungle only support cc bot.

ﬂooNov 9, 20185 votes

Alright, I suppose if you used to play him as an AP bruiser then it's shit how they redesigned him as a tank. But since he was actually part of the "tank class update" I guess Riot actually wanted him to be a tank after all. If they keep him as he is, people who play him as a tank will keep enjoying it (even if he's treated like shit bc of pro play) and if they revert him, some like you might enjoy him more. I hope they can find a middle ground where both ways are possible to play and either side can be happy ^^

xZabaksxNov 9, 20185 votes

{quoted}

- Can I come too?

Skarner hey guys!

CaveslothNov 10, 20183 votes

I'm good with it. Hop on the revert train son! ALL ABOARD!

HäxelNov 10, 20181 votes

It is funny as how Sejuani and Zac got shifted in opposite ways and people want a revert seem also ahve diffrent dieas of balance as riot:

Zac before Rework: Bunch of Damage Zac now: Bunch of CC, less Damage, harder to balance

Sejuani pre and kinda post rework: Bunch of CC, CC got shifted from places and post rework got harder to balance What riot wants to do now similar as they want to do to Ornn and makes people sceptical: Decrease the CC, increase Dmg

[zombie-brand-mindblown] [zombie-nunu-bummed] [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

LankPantsNov 10, 20181 votes

You think Sejuani didn't have higher damage pre rework than now? Just look at her old W.

Sejuani's next AA deals 6% of her enemies max HP as magic damage in an AoE. After this Sejuani deals 40+3% of her max HP/S as magic damage for 4 seconds in an AoE around her.

Total damage, 160+6% enemy HP+12% Sejuani's HP. Nothing on Sej's new kit can output that kind of damage to a single target, let alone in an AoE. Sej's damage seems higher to play against, because it's all burst damage now, something the changes on the PBE made even worse. In actuality her damage was much higher pre rework, just spread out over time and over multiple targets.

The Sej and Zac reworks both changed the champs in very similar ways, they sacrificed damage over time for more immediate burst damage and more CC.

HäxelNov 11, 20181 votes

What? first the easier one: how did azc losoe dmg over tiem for more burst? people literaly called the zac reworka s the death of ap zac who was played around burst. And ritos goal was to icnrease zacs burst, you can read it up.

second, burstdmg is far better for the 1v1. like new akali would just e away from old sejuani and wait till w is off. new sejuani procs the stun and applyys all of the dmg. PLUS seju can ult to apply the burst again. Things new sejuani could do directloy after the rework before she got nerfed: oneshotting scuttlers one arly level, even more important with the scuttle changes. She could also 1v1 far better junglers like a rengar. And on minions the clear also got better with the burst as you take less dmg if gromp dies 3s sooner. Means also faster clearspeed. There it does not matter if the dmg over time is in the end the same.

BrokenArtistNov 10, 20182 votes

{quoted}

- Can I come too?

And us two item 3508 item 3031

Pandemic PunchNov 9, 201833 votes

Revert revert

Bent PixelsNov 9, 201824 votes

The CC was literally what made her a champion at all... wow @Riot

Frog goes mooNov 9, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bent Pixels,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gwqUAk7N,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-11-09T14:24:15.558+0000)

The CC was literally what made her a champion at all... wow @Riot

she was given alot of damage buffs. Like alot of base damage buffs to replace it believe it or not. I'm guessing what they're doing next season is making tanks do more damage next season and less CC or something, because no one wants to play tanks because they just get outshined by the bruisers and high burst damage dealers.

I've never played sejuani myself, but I agree I thought that was the thing that made her. SInce her whole theme was snow or something like that. It'd make sense that she had a slow.

Iota ThetaNov 9, 20182 votes

{quoted}

she was given alot of damage buffs. Like alot of base damage buffs to replace it believe it or not. I'm guessing what they're doing next season is making tanks do more damage next season and less CC or something, because no one wants to play tanks because they just get outshined by the bruisers and high burst damage dealers.

I've never played sejuani myself, but I agree I thought that was the thing that made her. SInce her whole theme was snow or something like that. It'd make sense that she had a slow.

I really hope that isn’t the overall route for the entire season, because that’s a terrible idea. Tanks should stay as they are, and if people want more damage in solo they should run fighters. All this does is make tanks..well..not tanks by the very standards that Riot set: lower damage, high durability and CC.

Bob the ToastrNov 10, 20181 votes

It seems to be the route for the season. Taking the slow off of Sej and giving her more damage, taking away Ornn's shield in favor of more damage (and a better passive), during this season they have reduced poppy's bonus resistances and gave her more E damage, they took the option to get lots of resistances or health out of the rune system, etc.

Pika FoxNov 9, 20185 votes

Its moreso Utility is so much better than damage its not even funny, but in solo queue its generally damage that is more useful given the lack of coordination to use utility fully.

So, theyre nerfing utility for pro, and buffing damage for everyone else.

5050BSNov 9, 20188 votes

No its because they cant live long enough to do any damage.

Best CC is dead.

YfrappefortNov 10, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bent Pixels,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gwqUAk7N,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-11-09T14:24:15.558+0000)

The CC was literally what made her a champion at all... wow @Riot

Would be like removing all CC from Nautilus .

NaalithNov 9, 201818 votes

Thank you, pro play, for deleting yet another champion. We're getting into the double digits of characters normal players aren't allowed to play and it's fucking stupid.

CaveslothNov 10, 20187 votes

Yeah I'm tired of Riot repoing my champs for shit I don't care about will never play at the level or watch. They've made it pretty clear this season they HATE people who play their game.

Happy Love PileNov 10, 20182 votes

Hey, or you could adapt to the changes? But that would be more difficult than just complaining.

NaalithNov 10, 20186 votes

I don't even play Sejuani, this is about a wider trend that started with Azir and Ryze years ago and has spread to upwards of 15 champions. I'd rather champions are too OP in D1+ and break the game in pro play than the other 99% of the playerbase gets characters removed or "soft reworked" aka have their abilities ruined and their kits made unfun. A long time ago I was on the side of people who said pro play and regular players should be on the same balance patch, but seeing pros get exponentially better and pro play become more lucrative for Riot thus nerfing champs used in pro play has changed my mind.

Like honestly look at this list of champions who have been hard nerfed or soft reworked and made unfun because of pro. I'm sure people will add or subtract a few champs from my list and it's not like everyone agrees but come on, it's getting ridiculous. AurelionSol Azir Cassiopeia Elise Galio Gnar Kalista Karma Maokai Ornn RekSai Ryze Shen TahmKench Taliyah It's not my inability to "adapt" that's the issue, I have 64 mastery 7 champions and will continue to grow that list for the foreseeable future. My issue is the game becoming far less fun for an infinitesimally small portion of the playerbase.

Daddy ReTaricNov 9, 201813 votes

Sejuani used to be a fair and fun champion overall. Now it's behind us.

Happy Love PileNov 10, 20185 votes

She legit had a ranged amumu ulti. She was literally a better amumu who was not only tankier, but dealt more damage.

AnateraNov 9, 201812 votes

This is what happens when you let morons balance her.

Silly NeekoNov 9, 20188 votes

Umm, W much?

Moody PNov 9, 201891 votes

Winter's Wrath (W)

[Removed] Second hit no longer slows.

try to keep up, Grandpa.

Silly NeekoNov 9, 201855 votes

Hmm so it was. Now get off my lawn.

MonstermushmushNov 10, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gwqUAk7N,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-11-09T12:41:21.588+0000)

Winter's Wrath (W)
[Removed] Second hit no longer slows.
try to keep up, Grandpa.

Lmao so savage.

GreenKnightNov 9, 20188 votes

Pff, i wish for revert, but it's never going to happen.

Screw reworks, man.

MarkedOfKaneNov 9, 20187 votes

Sejuani Zac

EVERY THREAD UNTIL REVERT

(Bonus Maokai )

Oakleaf RangerNov 9, 20184 votes

Ok but she is also gaining a butt ton of damage.

Also literally ALL her abilities have CC.

Oh no, the champion with a gap closing knock up, stun, and AOE slow/stun is losing a slow

Guess she is unplayable now.

NyarlathοtepNov 10, 201813 votes

Who said tanks needs more damage? Tanks job is to provide durability and cc. For some reason riot decided to nerf sej's (and ornn's) cc in exchange for damage. Her e (when she shatters and frozen champ) already deals % max hp dmg, why 200 more base damage?

Also, her w has no slow, so yeah.

Oakleaf RangerNov 10, 20182 votes

Well if her patch history has any correlation with her win rate, then yes I think tanks need to be able to do damage.

Along with her CC, so was her damage nerfed. In other words; her jg clear health, speed, and skirmish.

So before the nerfs she was a durable CC machine that did damage. Not necessarily on the level of a carry but a significant amount.

So yah tanks have to be able to damage to function in game. But Sej just brings way too much CC and durability to a team when she can function.

NyarlathοtepNov 10, 2018

Ofc they need to be able to deal damage. Thus their % max hp damage. Not stupidly high base damage (in exchange for their unique element, cc).

And now sej will bring too much dmg (for a tank) and this is going to break her.

Oakleaf RangerNov 12, 20181 votes

Yes her w has a slow. Thats literally was planning being removed so yah.

You do understand that max health percent damage, is a lot of damage. Especially if the whole she is inflicting that damage your being CC chained by Sej alone. Pre nerfs she was doing that to everyone

Explain to me why think sej is in a poor state.

Because while they target her cc and a bit of her percent health damage, its the base stat damage nerfs that left her a poor state. By your definition of tanks that is the ideal state.

And no, sej W slow is not unique in its form of application or use.

Sej is a monster of a champ whenever viable and something Fundamental has to change.

NyarlathοtepNov 12, 2018

You do understand that max health percent damage, is a lot of damage.

Which is why the increase in base damage is 100% stupid.

Oakleaf RangerNov 12, 20181 votes

Only if allowed to remain the mobile durable CC machine that she is.

Idk what to tell you, but current sej just too much when viable.

NyarlathοtepNov 12, 2018

Sej's q is 17-11 sec. Ornn is 16-12. mao 13-9. "mobile"

Also sej is durable when her passive is up, aka 2 secs after taking damage. She is by far the squishiest tank. Ornn might join her in the near future.

Oakleaf RangerNov 13, 20181 votes

The cool down on a ability isn't necessarily important when determining how mobile a champion is.

Unlike ornn and mao sej has a skill shot ability that can gap close and go through terrain. That is very mobile indeed.

Especially when paired with her slow immunity from her passive. With tank stats in the most important part, when she engages or engaged on.

But sure lets say she squishy

NyarlathοtepNov 13, 2018

Eh yes it is. What do all extremely mobile champs have in common? Condition or unconditional, low or medium cd, dashes or/and movement speed and other in kit buffs.

The thing that makes yasuo and riven mobile are their base movement speed and their low cd dashes.

Both tristana and ez posses a high and medium range dash/blink. However while they are more mobile than someone like sona, they arent as mobile as yasuo or riven.

Unlike ornn and mao sej has a skill shot ability that can gap close and go through terrain. That is very mobile indeed.

In that case zac is even more mobile than sej. And even then, im not sure whats the problem with that. I mean if thats what breaking her just increase the cd late game.

Especially when paired with her slow immunity from her passive

Oh because thats whats going to stop an enemy ornn, malphite, rammus or leona from an engaging. A slow.

With tank stats in the most important part, when she engages or engaged on.

True. Until you realise her passive suffers from, what i like to call, the banshee's veil condition. Its easy to bait it out and force her to avoid engaging.

But sure lets say she squishy

But she is. In a teamfight, sej is going to drop faster compared to other tanks.

Oakleaf RangerNov 13, 20181 votes

What do all extremely mobile champions have?

Unconditional low to medium cool down abilities that can go through terrain.

Yasuo only has offensive mobilty. Despite what the boards would have you believe he isn't very mobile otherwise. Unlike riven who can move offensively or defensively with her abilities.

Yah guess what, when you give tanks unconditional mobility that can go through terrain on a low cool down (aka not malphite) ability then there is very likely going to be a problem. Which is exactly why Zac and Sej have been getting thr nerf bat.

A slow (depends) can very much stop plenty of champions as long as you or your team positions properly.

Sej passive being able to popped is called counter play, unless you want to buff it amd make her even more op.

Raising the cool down on a non ultimate ability that allows that kind of engage will change little. Its not like they are spamming that spell multiple times to engage or in combat but the constant threat of being able to and only needing to do it once to devestate someone or a team.

NyarlathοtepNov 13, 2018

Yasuo only has offensive mobilty. Despite what the boards would have you believe he isn't very mobile otherwise. Unlike riven who can move offensively or defensively with her abilities.

"he isnt very mobile" LMAO WAT? Im mean sure you can argue that he needs targets (which are almost everywhere) , but isnt very mobile? Hello?

A slow (depends) can very much stop plenty of champions as long as you or your team positions properly.

Team positions properly. Thats impossible in your average game (yes even ranked, to some extent). And no it wont stop plenty of champs. A big chunk of the champion pool have dashes, which completely ignore (excluding yasuo and talon) slows.

Sej passive being able to popped is called counter play, unless you want to buff it amd make her even more op.

Well they could lower the stats that it gives and in exchange buff its duration by a little (and possibly nerf the slow immunity).

Raising the cool down on a non ultimate ability that allows that kind of engage will change little. Its not like they are spamming that spell multiple times to engage or in combat but the constant threat of being able to and only needing to do it once to devestate someone or a team.

oke thats just plainly, overall stupid as a logic.

Oakleaf RangerNov 13, 20181 votes

Well I'm done with this conversation. You won't change your opinion and certainly won't change mine with what I call very weak points.

Especially if you really believe Yasuo's mobility isn't mostly restricted to offensive purposes as in chasing or closing distance but extremely limited when trying to kite, escape, or run away.

Fyi saying something is stupid and not saying why isn't a counter point.

MetallikaiserNov 9, 20182 votes

The idea of her being more of a bruiser with less cc sounds cool to me honestly.

ThefrostyvikingNov 10, 20186 votes

Issue is that she becomes more of a "oneshot" tank. E-AA-R-AA is 40% max health, 1230 base damage and this isnt counting anything else, even if this is at max level its a lot.

Like.....most of this is nearly instant too.

Should a tank really have this?