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Rengar's problem is just league's problem since 5 years

Best princess EU··3 votes·749 views

the lack of counterplay against stealth, eve/twitch/shaco, they always gave trouble to the balance team. Twitch had his stealth delay increased, shaco was gutted, eve identity as an assassin was removed.

Why don't the balance team give us for once a proper counter against invisibility? i played like 2 months dota 2, i didn't like the game but i realised that 50% of its champions had stealth, the game even has 2 items that gives invisibility. How it's possible? Well i wasn't an expert and then my friends showed me this:

> Dust of Appearance: Cost 180, 2 charges > active: Reveals and slows invisible Heroes in a nearby area, can be purged. > Radius: 1050 > Move Speed Slow: 20% > Duration: 12

pink ward now can not be purchased by being full build, the trinket which revealed stealth has been removed, countering stealth champions is like x1000 harder please i need someone to explain to me why riot did this? we need a strong counter to stealth I think that it's time for riot to realise that stealth is NOT ok and either bring back the red trinket or give us a new thing. I remember that riot brought a ward that countered stealth on PBE, did they said why they removed it?.

17 Comments

Aeolian Melodies5 votes

We used to have counters to stealth, first Oracle's Elixir, then the red trinket upgrade, and now nothing. Apparently Riot doesn't want poor stealth players to be outsmarted.

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gwWmAnIB,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-01-01T16:11:31.425+0000)

We used to have counters to stealth, first Oracle's Elixir, then the red trinket upgrade, and now nothing. Apparently Riot doesn't want poor stealth players to be outsmarted.

pretty much this

Kyrrion3 votes

The issue with stealth counters is that they're entirely binary. Stealth either works 100% or it doesn't work at all. Since stealth is so inherently powerful, champions must be tuned as if stealth is always up (again, the counters available were nothing short of hard counters, practically nullifying stealth entirely). So if stealth is taken away by the old counters, all of a sudden there's a giant gap in the champion's power that simply can't be made up.

Until Riot comes up with a good solution for a stealth counter that doesn't negate its power completely, so that stealth champions have a chance to outplay the supposed counters, nothing can change. This has been an issue for League since day 1, stealth was added just because they wanted a stealth mechanic. They didn't add any sort of infrastructure inside the game to make it a good, healthy mechanic. Again, the old hard counters that completely nullified stealth do not count as they simply create a feast or famine situation.

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

{quoted}

The issue with stealth counters is that they're entirely binary. Stealth either works 100% or it doesn't work at all. Since stealth is so inherently powerful, champions must be tuned as if stealth is always up (again, the counters available were nothing short of hard counters, practically nullifying stealth entirely). So if stealth is taken away by the old counters, all of a sudden there's a giant gap in the champion's power that simply can't be made up.

Until Riot comes up with a good solution for a stealth counter that doesn't negate its power completely, so that stealth champions have a chance to outplay the supposed counters, nothing can change. This has been an issue for League since day 1, stealth was added just because they wanted a stealth mechanic. They didn't add any sort of infrastructure inside the game to make it a good, healthy mechanic. Again, the old hard counters that completely nullified stealth do not count as they simply create a feast or famine situation.

well, dust of appearance is purgeable but in league only item 3140 purges and will make you leaving stealth, so yea i have no idea on how to make a mechanic that isn't binary.

Kyrrion1 votes

{quoted}

well, dust of appearance is purgeable but in league only item 3140 purges and will make you leaving stealth, so yea i have no idea on how to make a mechanic that isn't binary.

The only idea I can think of is to remake what stealth is. Stealth can't just be invisibility.

One possible solution is that stealth makes the champion transparent and untargetable (but still able to be hit my skillshots and area attacks), as well as removing their icon from the map for enemies. If a stealthed champion takes a certain amount of damage based on level within a small time frame (think Sterak's Gauge), the champion is forcibly pulled out of stealth.

Also, all wards can show stealth champions now but at a reduced range (think of Eve's current passive almost, the range can be modified as needed) - this vision from wards will show them on the minimap as well as make them targetable as long as they're in this "perfect vision" range. Pink wards will still reveal as normal. This makes ties stealth further into the vision game, as unique ward placement can be used to help determine the location of a stealth champion and provide more counter play to stealth ganks.

With the stealthed champions being untargetable, stealth becomes a much more utility based mechanic that needs to be strategically used. It provides a great defensive steroid in the way that you can't be hit by auto attacks or targeted abilities, however you need to work around not getting hit by non-target restricted abilities. If stealth provides a movespeed boost, as it already often does, the game is now "you are a mobile assassin, your success is based on how well you can read your opponents and out predict their skillshots to dodge".

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

{quoted}

The only idea I can think of is to remake what stealth is. Stealth can't just be invisibility.

One possible solution is that stealth makes the champion transparent and untargetable (but still able to be hit my skillshots and area attacks), as well as removing their icon from the map for enemies. If a stealthed champion takes a certain amount of damage based on level within a small time frame (think Sterak's Gauge), the champion is forcibly pulled out of stealth.

Also, all wards can show stealth champions now but at a reduced range (think of Eve's current passive almost, the range can be modified as needed) - this vision from wards will show them on the minimap as well as make them targetable as long as they're in this "perfect vision" range. Pink wards will still reveal as normal. This makes ties stealth further into the vision game, as unique ward placement can be used to help determine the location of a stealth champion and provide more counter play to stealth ganks.

With the stealthed champions being untargetable, stealth becomes a much more utility based mechanic that needs to be strategically used. It provides a great defensive steroid in the way that you can't be hit by auto attacks or targeted abilities, however you need to work around not getting hit by non-target restricted abilities. If stealth provides a movespeed boost, as it already often does, the game is now "you are a mobile assassin, your success is based on how well you can read your opponents and out predict their skillshots to dodge".

yea, actually slark in dota 2 has this kind of invisibility, cannot be targeted, but surounded by a smoke so you can see where he is. thought slark can attack while being invisible.

i think it's a good idea.

Aeolian Melodies1 votes

{quoted}

The issue with stealth counters is that they're entirely binary. Stealth either works 100% or it doesn't work at all. Since stealth is so inherently powerful, champions must be tuned as if stealth is always up (again,** the counters available were nothing short of hard counters**, practically nullifying stealth entirely). So if stealth is taken away by the old counters, all of a sudden there's a giant gap in the champion's power that simply can't be made up.

Until Riot comes up with a good solution for a stealth counter that doesn't negate its power completely, so that stealth champions have a chance to outplay the supposed counters, nothing can change. This has been an issue for League since day 1, stealth was added just because they wanted a stealth mechanic. They didn't add any sort of infrastructure inside the game to make it a good, healthy mechanic. Again, the old hard counters that completely nullified stealth do not count as they simply create a feast or famine situation.

Malzahar Warwick Skarner vs item 3140 .

I mean, technically the situation you described still exist due to item 2043 existing, it's just far less practical to always carry one around rather than relying on the old red trinket or Oracle's Elixir back in the days. But you still get the same "well, fk u" effect.

ZombeezyJeezy1 votes

{quoted}

Until Riot comes up with a good solution for a stealth counter that doesn't negate its power completely, so that stealth champions have a chance to outplay the supposed counters, nothing can change. This has been an issue for League since day 1, stealth was added just because they wanted a stealth mechanic. They didn't add any sort of infrastructure inside the game to make it a good, healthy mechanic. Again, the old hard counters that completely nullified stealth do not count as they simply create a feast or famine situation.

Riot has been dancing around the "stealth issue" since the dawn of competitive seasons in the game, and the fact that they still haven't come up with anything substantial is frustrating, because you're right - stealth either works really well in League or it doesn't work at all. But that's not good. It basically diminishes a bunch of champions' value because they were designed around the stealth mechanic but can't effectively use it.

Then you have the other issues of Stealth champions that work TOO well (Rengar , old Twitch Shaco Evelynn ) that end up either getting SLAMMED by nerfs or having nothing being done to solve their problems. Then you have Akali whose stealth mechanic becomes immediately invalidated by a single pink ward or sweep.

Stealth is a mess in League, but the sad truth is that it always has been and probably always will be until Riot come right out and say they're going to rework Stealth... Again.

MLDzXnRRR2 votes

DOTA is not very balanced - you can see half the players getting shadow blade every game - you can gank with no problems or escape. Yeah, it's the 11th most popular item in that game: http://www.dotabuff.com/items

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

{quoted}

DOTA is not very balanced - you can see half the players getting shadow blade every game - you can gank with no problems or escape. Yeah, it's the 11th most popular item in that game: http://www.dotabuff.com/items

op didn't said that it's balanced, but that it's a good idea to have a counter to stealth

Aeolian Melodies1 votes

{quoted}

op didn't said that it's balanced, but that it's a good idea to have a counter to stealth

We used to always have one, but stealth players apparently bitched enough that it got removed

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gwWmAnIB,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-01T19:32:44.175+0000)

We used to always have one, but stealth players apparently bitched enough that it got removed

yes, but it's different because stealth players can still outplay their oppenent if they manage to purge the dust of appearance.

Ahristocats1 votes

{quoted}

DOTA is not very balanced - you can see half the players getting shadow blade every game - you can gank with no problems or escape. Yeah, it's the 11th most popular item in that game: http://www.dotabuff.com/items

you can't escape if the enemies buy dust, because it also slows you. Shadow blade is mostly used to engage or on champions like shadow fiend because they can cast their ulti while being invisible.

ZombeezyJeezy3 votes

{quoted}

DOTA is not very balanced - you can see half the players getting shadow blade every game - you can gank with no problems or escape. Yeah, it's the 11th most popular item in that game: http://www.dotabuff.com/items

You completely missed the point, and that is that Stealth has more counters in Dota than it does in League.

Also, a lot of the stealth characters in Dota don't even fit well into the Meta, and Shadow Blade isn't automatically core on everyone in that game because good players will know how to counter it.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

{quoted}

You completely missed the point, and that is that Stealth has more counters in Dota than it does in League.

Also, a lot of the stealth characters in Dota don't even fit well into the Meta, and Shadow Blade isn't automatically core on everyone in that game because good players will know how to counter it.

You counter it with spending shitton of gold on dust and sentries. Plus some invis heroes (Mirana, Riki) always get Diffusal, so your dust is a waste.

Sanelis1 votes

Rengar, while opressive, is not overpowered, as indicated by various winrate websites. If you created an item that counters his stealth, you would have to buff something of his.

Then, once he actually jumps on you, you would stand even less of a chance, cause he would be tankier/faster or deal more damage.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

I think having old red trink might be the answer.

The problem is just that a few of these champs rely so much on stealth that they basically can't fight if the enemy has that trink off cd. Those champs rely on stealth a little bit too much for letting red trink go back to the way it was, if all those champs were left the same.

I agree that stealth is still in a weird spot, and I wish there were better ideas in the work to kind of fix it. They just don't seem to have any great ideas atm.

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