Kled now counters champions that were meant to counter him

Moody P·Jul 18, 2019·33 votes·13,373 views

The main way you best Kled was by outlasting him in trades. Sustain, shielding, etc. And because of this he tended to lose to champions who could reliably heal back his damage, like juggernauts and Skirmishers.

Well, now he just stomps every single one of them into the dirt except for Fiora because he completely eradicates sustaining him out as an option. This was honestly the worst choice of buff you could give Kled. I'm not going to say he didn't need SOMETHING, because he did need a buff, but THIS buff that completely 180s so many matchups in top lane now that you've made fighters rely so much on sustain for survival? No. That's just foolishness.

He doesn't even lose to champions with defenses other than healing; he shits on every tank or fighter who uses shields too.

31 Comments

YäätoJul 18, 201923 votes

This is so hilariously wrong. Kled wins matchups he used to win harder and it does nothing to matchups he struggled against. Kled almost always just all ins level 3. Sustain never was the way to beat him when he literally engages full health and kills you...

DrakalopsJul 19, 20191 votes

The buff Kled actually needs:

Remove the -20% damage against champions when dismounted. Remove the -20% damage against champions when dismounted. Remove the -20% damage against champions when dismounted

Critmaster GarenJul 18, 201912 votes

if they gave any champion a shield breaker effect, it would have made more sense on the second part of kleds q instead of anything else.

Daddy AntsJul 18, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=grERy5Iz,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-07-18T18:50:22.794+0000)

if they gave any champion a shield breaker effect, it would have made more sense on the second part of kleds q instead of anything else.

Kled doesn't have a shield breaker.

He has a amped Grievous Wounds effect on the pull part of his Q.

Critmaster GarenJul 18, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Kled doesn't have a shield breaker.

He has a amped Grievous Wounds effect on the pull part of his Q.

thats what im saying. should have been shield breaker instead of putting grievous wounds on it, and giving renekton shield breaker. its a lot more of a niche effect.

Sexy Jack RabbitJul 19, 20191 votes

Yeah I feel like Renekton woulda made more sense with the GW with his bloodier theme and such

PhDs NutsJul 19, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=grERy5Iz,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-07-18T18:50:22.794+0000)

if they gave any champion a shield breaker effect, it would have made more sense on the second part of kleds q instead of anything else.

...why? His Q has a huge delay. It would be useless against shields since they'd just expire before the 2nd part procced.

Teh SongJul 18, 20197 votes

And what makes you think that these champions were supposed to counter Kled? Did Riot officially state that they were? No? Then they aren't.

Perhaps those champions were countering Kled, but unless it's an official intention of their design we cannot say that they were supposed to.

On the flip side, in these last patch notes Riot outright stated that they gave Kled grievous wounds to counter healing champs. So Kled is in fact supposed to counter them. Just as Renekton is now supposed to counter shield champs like Kench.

Now I haven't read every patch notes ever, so perhaps the answer to my question was yes (if that's the case could you show me) and Kled was previously meant to be countered by these champions. If that's the case, then Riot changed their minds, changed his design, and yes, changed matchups. That's not a bad thing. Who counters who doesn't have to remain consistent. As of this patch Kled is a counter to healing. Before it he wasn't. Perhaps as you say healing used to be a Kled counter. Now it isn't. The matchups changed, but that's nothing to complain about. Just use Kled against different champs, and use different champs against Kled.

Tahminatrix Jul 18, 201919 votes

According to riot, they don't believe in counterpicks in the first place.

And its not like the op is stating that those champs simply beat kled in lane without playing it right and managing to disengage from trades before he gets his 4 autos in....

Lets also not FORGET THAT KLED IS A SNOWBALL HEAVY CHAMP IN THE FIRST PLACE he should not have any easy lanes unless his enemy is a scaling champ.

Turning a matchup where kled would need to actually need to play perfectly in order to dominate lane and snowball or roam, into a matchup he just wins is stupid.

This game is not rock paper scissors, nobody asked for it to be rock paper scissors, go find another game if that's what you believe in.

Teh SongJul 18, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tahminatrix ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=grERy5Iz,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-07-18T17:32:13.785+0000)

According to riot, they don't believe in counterpicks in the first place.

And its not like the op is stating that those champs simply beat kled in lane without playing it right and managing to disengage from trades before he gets his 4 autos in....

Lets also not FORGET THAT KLED IS A SNOWBALL HEAVY CHAMP IN THE FIRST PLACE he should not have any easy lanes unless his enemy is a scaling champ.

Turning a matchup where kled would need to actually need to play perfectly in order to dominate lane and snowball or roam, into a matchup he just wins is stupid.

This game is not rock paper scissors, nobody asked for it to be rock paper scissors, go find another game if that's what you believe in.

Rock paper scissors is hard counters which as you said Riot says they don't want. Riot does want and intentionally makes soft counters. As evidenced by the recent patch notes, where they literally said they added things to counter other things. (Buffed Kled and Kat to counter healing; buffed Renek and Blitz to counter shields).

Tahminatrix Jul 18, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Teh Song,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=grERy5Iz,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-18T20:36:50.853+0000)

Rock paper scissors is hard counters which as you said Riot says they don't want. Riot does want and intentionally makes soft counters. As evidenced by the recent patch notes, where they literally said they added things to counter other things. (Buffed Kled and Kat to counter healing; buffed Renek and Blitz to counter shields).

Soft counters are fine, renekton removing shields completely is alittle absurd though, should do increased damage to shields like irelia or put it on his e since they are making his w overloaded and there is almost no reason to use empowered e.

XenaPhobiaFTWJul 18, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Teh Song,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=grERy5Iz,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-18T20:36:50.853+0000)

Rock paper scissors is hard counters which as you said Riot says they don't want. Riot does want and intentionally makes soft counters. As evidenced by the recent patch notes, where they literally said they added things to counter other things. (Buffed Kled and Kat to counter healing; buffed Renek and Blitz to counter shields).

Please elucidate for me what a "hard counter" is by Riot's definition. Because I'd call Teemo a hard hard HARD counter for Trynd.

trynd blinded, eats 2.5 seconds of damage + DoT poison trynd no longer blinded still eating teemo autos trynd ults and tries to kill Teemo. Teemo's Q is back up. blind for half of ult. Teemo W's away hit Q to avoid death from poison teemo's W still active for another 0.5-1 second chases poisoned, nearly dead Trynd down Teemo Q up again dead.

Trynd literally cannot win against Teemo when the skills levels are equal. And according to Rito, match making attempts to force a 50% +/- 1% win rate, meaning ideally you'll be matched against a lane that is more or less roughly equal to you in skill level.

Literally the only way to win against Teemo in lane is to go D. Shield and Hex first item which makes you less than useful after lane phase without raw damage/tiamat to wave clear/split push. Teemo makes Trynd irrelevant, zones Tryn off farm and beats him in lane 100% of the time unless you get extremely lucky and play against a teemo that is leagues below your own skill level.

Teh SongJul 19, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Please elucidate for me what a "hard counter" is by Riot's definition. Because I'd call Teemo a hard hard HARD counter for Trynd.

Trynd literally cannot win against Teemo when the skills levels are equal. And according to Rito, match making attempts to force a 50% +/- 1% win rate, meaning ideally you'll be matched against a lane that is more or less roughly equal to you in skill level.

Literally the only way to win against Teemo in lane is to go D. Shield and Hex first item which makes you less than useful after lane phase without raw damage/tiamat to wave clear/split push. Teemo makes Trynd irrelevant, zones Tryn off farm and beats him in lane 100% of the time unless you get extremely lucky and play against a teemo that is leagues below your own skill level.

If you want Riot's definition you'll have to get it from a team member. But they have said they don't want them. In any case, them not wanting to make them doesn't mean they won't exist. Sometimes things happen unintentionally.

XenaPhobiaFTWJul 18, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tahminatrix ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=grERy5Iz,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-07-18T17:32:13.785+0000)

According to riot, they don't believe in counterpicks in the first place.

Yeah Quinn top doesn't shit on literally every match up. Not at all. People don't lock Quinn to counter Renek at all

qNxYrClarkJul 19, 20191 votes

That doesn't mean Riot believes in it. Considering how they are all ignorant plebs I am not surprised.

mack9112Jul 19, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tahminatrix ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=grERy5Iz,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-07-18T17:32:13.785+0000)

According to riot, they don't believe in counterpicks in the first place.

And its not like the op is stating that those champs simply beat kled in lane without playing it right and managing to disengage from trades before he gets his 4 autos in....

Lets also not FORGET THAT KLED IS A SNOWBALL HEAVY CHAMP IN THE FIRST PLACE he should not have any easy lanes unless his enemy is a scaling champ.

Turning a matchup where kled would need to actually need to play perfectly in order to dominate lane and snowball or roam, into a matchup he just wins is stupid.

This game is not rock paper scissors, nobody asked for it to be rock paper scissors, go find another game if that's what you believe in.

Like the third line of patch 9.14 says they are tryIng to add counters ...

SucctionJul 19, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tahminatrix ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=grERy5Iz,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-07-18T17:32:13.785+0000)

According to riot, they don't believe in counterpicks in the first place.

And its not like the op is stating that those champs simply beat kled in lane without playing it right and managing to disengage from trades before he gets his 4 autos in....

Lets also not FORGET THAT KLED IS A SNOWBALL HEAVY CHAMP IN THE FIRST PLACE he should not have any easy lanes unless his enemy is a scaling champ.

Turning a matchup where kled would need to actually need to play perfectly in order to dominate lane and snowball or roam, into a matchup he just wins is stupid.

This game is not rock paper scissors, nobody asked for it to be rock paper scissors, go find another game if that's what you believe in.

Actually it seems like that's the direction it's moving in sadly :c it'll be crappy like Overwatch soon enough

ZabulusJul 18, 20191 votes

I cant argue the only true counter in this game is fiora against Camille

Crescent DuskJul 19, 20195 votes

Kled was already strong anyways. Neither he or Renekton needed buffs.

Darius and Mordekaiser needed nerfs. So did Jax.

I don't understand how Jax has gone untouched when he doesn't have any truly atrocious lanes and then massively outscales all the top lane roster.

Pierce The VealJul 19, 20194 votes

Hold up, wait a minute.

Did you just say kled’s weakness is supposed to be sustained fights?

Are my eyes deceiving me?

Moody PJul 19, 20191 votes

Yes. Kled gets completely rocked by high DPS like Fiora or Trybdanere because he does most his damage in one big burst and then waits for cooldowns, or into someone like Illaoi who forces him to play very risky to get damage off and she can outburst him extremely hard

Illaoi dropped from a 52% win against him to a 44% though, complete 180 on this lane now

SnowbrandJul 19, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pierce The Veal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=grERy5Iz,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-07-19T18:19:54.486+0000)

Hold up, wait a minute.

Did you just say kled’s weakness is supposed to be sustained fights?

Are my eyes deceiving me?

Yea I thought the same... his passive relies on sustained fights

DUDE BROJul 18, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=grERy5Iz,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-07-18T14:32:54.827+0000)

he tended to lose to champions who could reliably heal back his damage, like juggernauts and Skirmishers.

This is incorrect. He loses against champions with sustained damage.

All his damage comes in a tiny burst window with long cooldowns. After that he's got abysmal attack speed, and anyone who continues to attack him after the first 2 seconds of combat completely destroys him.

If you're backing off after a skirmish with kled to heal up, you've already lost.

LapantinoJul 19, 20193 votes

he has only 54% wr, it's ok, isn't it?

RequiemsfireJul 19, 20193 votes

Kled's a good champ but nowhere remotely close to what this thread is trying to paint him as, Kled had and still has some of the worst counter match ups in League, makes me sick honestly seeing threads like these get an upvote.

Daddy AntsJul 18, 20192 votes

https://u.gg/lol/champions/kled/build

Holy shit....

Blitzcrank went up from 50.08% to 52.49% also.

Polaris IJul 18, 20192 votes

But it only triggers the anti heal IF he gets his q pull and buy that time you should be able to dash out unless he goes e+q into a e follow but you shouldn’t be that close to him

Blumonky05Jul 18, 20191 votes

Well i do think no champs have counters.I deeply believe that it depends on skill...like people claim Akali counters fizz...Me:i think not Fizz:20/6 Me:7/16 (Just an example...but it happens...) Akali Fizz

Minimac2000Jul 18, 20191 votes

Yeah, I hate kled as a champion even more now than before. But it's cool because no one ever picks him with stuff like Mordekaiser on the table

SnowbrandJul 19, 20191 votes

Is there a law that says a counter matchup always have to be a countermatchup? Isn't riot free to change the meta or the matchups how they want? Kled isn't a broken pick, he needed buffs and this isn't magically going to make him broken or anything. You just have to play differently/different champs against him and that's fine.

Mokuto BunshiJul 19, 20191 votes

Aight, okay, I think your missing the forest for the trees. Lets name some top sustain champs:

Aatrox Vladmir Darius Renekton Fiora Tryndamere.

Now you may think that these all counter him because of sustain, however the first 2 he always used to counter. The second he always used to go even with and the last 2 he would tend to loose to.

The reason for the last 2 being special is that tryndamere doesnt die as soon as kled (ult), so he beats kled weather both or neither of them have life steal and his crits make sure it happens before remount. He still beats Kled to death. This is also why kayle beats kled.

Fiora Used to beat Kled as well and she STILL does. Why? Not because of her life steal or ult, but because of her points. Kled has the highest base health of any champ in the game, so % true damage reks him completely. And unlike vayne, smart fioras will go in for 1 point and leave or use ult.

In BOTH of those cases, Kled never won and he still doesn't but it has nothing to do with life steal. What I am saying is Life steal wasn't the way to beat kled before.

If you want to beat kled it has to be with a champ he cant kill or a champ that ends him before a remount. In theory Lifesteal may have sounded like a way to do what kled does better, but kled used to build executioners before and life steal anyways.

TL;DR: Its not the life steal. Its how champs stop him from doing his remount or killing them at all.