Mage itemization really needs to be toned down

HateDaddy·Mar 17, 2019·5 votes·1,641 views

When I am sitting at 180 mr and Zoe without a void can still almost full combo me as a 3100 hp Nasus, something is ludicrous. Yes, Zoe bursts too hard but her items allow her to do that. And that is because mage itemization focuses on one thing: acquiring as much AP as possible with little regard for the item's passives/utility. Inevitably, people will look at the game I played and say "she had a void," let me make it clear she didn't buy that until defeat screen.

17 Comments

Drakath2002Mar 17, 20194 votes

The problem isn’t the items, it’s the champion

I am a Mage main

And if anyone is complaining about Zoe doing too much damage with minimal items I’m gonna blame her as much as I’d blame Zed if he was the current offender

Q that scales off distance traveled W that amps damage Ult that allows her to increase the travel distance of the Q Nerf the AP Ratios and the other ratios, not the items, Mage itemization is stale/repetitive/horrid as is, we don’t need it to get worse

Nerf the problem champs, not the items and runes, and that applies to all classes

Nerf Zoe Lux Neeko not item 3089 item 3135 item 3151 item 3285

Nerf Zed Rengar Khazix Kayn not item 3142 item 3147 item 3095 item 3814

Nerf Riven Jax Renekton MasterYi not item 3161 item 3071 item 3053 item 3026

You get where I’m going with this?

ParoeMar 17, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Nerf not

You get where I’m going with this?

To be fair though GA needs to be reverted back into a hybrid resistance item. People are rushing it third item nowadays and its gone from a luxury item to a core item on full-AD champions.

Dasdi96Mar 17, 20192 votes

Good luck convincing people here that legit think buying a item 1033 makes you immune to mages.

ParoeMar 17, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Good luck convincing people here that legit think buying a makes you immune to mages.

item 3155 makes you basically immune to the burst damage from an even AP laner. AP itemization is absolutely fine where it is compared to AD itemization - if anything, you people need to blame riot for pushing mage itemization in general to the "auxiliary" support area where a mage is just a damage-based support for the glorious marksman overlord.

Way back when, mages were balanced... And over time theyve lost a great deal of AP off their itemization where AD champions - including marksmen and assassins - have simply gained more AD and damage over time. The only thing ill give is that i hate how much HP+AP itemization there is and how those items are core on many champions simply because they need the extra HP to survive against their AD counterparts. Id much rather Ekko be buying lichbane into spellbinder than protobelt into morellos... Realistically only battle mages should be buying those items.

Dasdi96Mar 17, 20192 votes

{quoted}

makes you basically immune to the burst damage from an even AP laner. AP itemization is absolutely fine where it is compared to AD itemization - if anything, you people need to blame riot for pushing mage itemization in general to the "auxiliary" support area where a mage is just a damage-based support for the glorious marksman overlord.

Way back when, mages were balanced... And over time theyve lost a great deal of AP off their itemization where AD champions - including marksmen and assassins - have simply gained more AD and damage over time. The only thing ill give is that i hate how much HP+AP itemization there is and how those items are core on many champions simply because they need the extra HP to survive against their AD counterparts. Id much rather Ekko be buying lichbane into spellbinder than protobelt into morellos... Realistically only battle mages should be buying those items.

What the actual fuck are you talking about? This pro mage circlejerk here is ridiculous. You act like you auto lose lane because your opponent rushed hexdrinker. Menwhile seekers is cheaper and is more gold efficient. Also, mages did not lose ap from their items. Rabadon now gives +40% instead of +30% back then.

Rock MDMar 17, 20191 votes

{quoted}

What the actual fuck are you talking about? This pro mage circlejerk here is ridiculous. You act like you auto lose lane because your opponent rushed hexdrinker. Menwhile seekers is cheaper and is more gold efficient. Also, mages did not lose ap from their items. Rabadon now gives +40% instead of +30% back then.

You definitely lose AP. I could easily get ~800-900 a couple seasons ago and now I can barely break 600. Adding new damage items/effects has kept burst only slightly lower so it's not a huge shift, but it is definitely lower now, unless you're running Gunblade.

It sucks because Riot is moving toward a "low ratio values, high base values." model with mages where they tack on CDR and remove AP. That's mostly beneficial for the type of mages that are already really good competitively (Azir, Ori, Syndra, etc.)

ParoeMar 17, 20191 votes

{quoted}

What the actual fuck are you talking about? This pro mage circlejerk here is ridiculous. You act like you auto lose lane because your opponent rushed hexdrinker. Menwhile seekers is cheaper and is more gold efficient. Also, mages did not lose ap from their items. Rabadon now gives +40% instead of +30% back then.

Your bias is showing, and its disgusting. Two things:

Hexdrinker is MUCH more powerful than seekers, comparing the two as if they perform the same function is like comparing apples to oranges. ZHONYAS compared to hexdrinker is a fair comparison, though... Lifeline still beats zhonyas though, since you can move around during it.
My point is that AP itemization is in the same place as AD itemization and that riot has been pushing mages towards a bruiser-ee playstyle of AP+HP so they can better support their marksman by dealing damage without easily killing enemy champions.

A third thing thats less important... Mages have lost over a hundred AP off their builds, we used to have FOUR 120AP items, we now have two, and only one item at 100AP and 90AP. The rest are 75 and lower. This totals up to a pretty hefty difference... Meanwhile AD itemization has only improved. There isnt really much of a difference between AD and AP itemization anymore except for the utility AP itemization can provide... AD itemization is overall more powerfully defensive AND offensively.

DarkInvaderxaioMar 17, 20191 votes

{quoted}

What the actual fuck are you talking about? This pro mage circlejerk here is ridiculous. You act like you auto lose lane because your opponent rushed hexdrinker. Menwhile seekers is cheaper and is more gold efficient. Also, mages did not lose ap from their items. Rabadon now gives +40% instead of +30% back then.

mages lost plenty ap from items what you on about zhyonas used to be 100 ap moreloos was 100 ap rylais was 100 ap with 800 hp all ap items got nerfed into the ground and some items got blanket buff which only made a select few champions useful or s tier the rest are garbage

Rock MDMar 17, 20191 votes

{quoted}

makes you basically immune to the burst damage from an even AP laner. AP itemization is absolutely fine where it is compared to AD itemization - if anything, you people need to blame riot for pushing mage itemization in general to the "auxiliary" support area where a mage is just a damage-based support for the glorious marksman overlord.

Way back when, mages were balanced... And over time theyve lost a great deal of AP off their itemization where AD champions - including marksmen and assassins - have simply gained more AD and damage over time. The only thing ill give is that i hate how much HP+AP itemization there is and how those items are core on many champions simply because they need the extra HP to survive against their AD counterparts. Id much rather Ekko be buying lichbane into spellbinder than protobelt into morellos... Realistically only battle mages should be buying those items.

As a mage player, I dislike Hexdrinker because it means I'm going to be playing on the backfoot in lane and I likely will only be picking up assists.

That being said, it's silly how much boards ignores the fact that you don't need to be full damage with these champions. Every single AP, long ranged mage besides maybe 1-2 has incredible utility that makes them extremely relevant outside of just damage. Also, you normally can manage the waves well enough that you completely cut off interaction.

The only time Hexdrinker is an issue is when there's big all ins with little reaction time or no setup. If you're caught out and it's burst or be bursted, yeah you'll lose to Hexdrinker. The problem is 90% of the situations are scenarios where, as an AP, you can easily avoid confrontation in the first place.

ParoeMar 17, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rock MD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gqEApZxZ,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2019-03-17T21:21:20.694+0000)

As a mage player, I dislike Hexdrinker because it means I'm going to be playing on the backfoot in lane and I likely will only be picking up assists.

That being said, it's silly how much boards ignores the fact that you don't need to be full damage with these champions. Every single AP, long ranged mage besides maybe 1-2 has incredible utility that makes them extremely relevant outside of just damage. Also, you normally can manage the waves well enough that you completely cut off interaction.

That assumes youre playing against someone who is either situationally mobile or immobile. In the top lane its certainly true - but i have a hard time believing that if a mage is forced to play defensively by the existence of hexdrinker... That they can manipulate the wave against an AD champion like Zed or Talon who just pushes harder than you in the lane phase since hexdrinker+dirk lets them clear the backline in one ability.

The only time Hexdrinker is an issue is when there's big all ins with little reaction time or no setup. If you're caught out and it's burst or be bursted, yeah you'll lose to Hexdrinker. The problem is 90% of the situations are scenarios where, as an AP, you can easily avoid confrontation in the first place.

I think this is only true if YOURE mobile yourself, otherwise its very easy to be misposition vs your probably mobile enemy laner. Compare Brand and Ahri. Ahri can escape being ganked by a hecarim or a lee sin+zed, but brand cannot escape that gank unless he was already playing super safe and was allowing himself to be pushed up... In which case a smart AD mid laner would just hold the wave on his side of the map.

Rock MDMar 17, 20191 votes

{quoted}

That assumes youre playing against someone who is either situationally mobile or immobile. In the top lane its certainly true - but i have a hard time believing that if a mage is forced to play defensively by the existence of hexdrinker... That they can manipulate the wave against an AD champion like Zed or Talon who just pushes harder than you in the lane phase since hexdrinker+dirk lets them clear the backline in one ability.

I think this is only true if YOURE mobile yourself, otherwise its very easy to be misposition vs your probably mobile enemy laner. Compare Brand and Ahri. Ahri can escape being ganked by a hecarim or a lee sin+zed, but brand cannot escape that gank unless he was already playing super safe and was allowing himself to be pushed up... In which case a smart AD mid laner would just hold the wave on his side of the map.

40 cs is about 1250 gold. Assuming 10 cs/min, you're getting 40 cs and your first back around level 6. This is the soonest an AD champion can purchase a Hexdrinker.

At levels 7-9 onward, you will be clearing the minions way too quickly for your opponents to engage on you. You shove out and then you go ward so you can roam and/or see when your opponent is roaming. This means that the Hexdrinker is useless unless you try to not shove and instead try 1v1 an assassin.

Needless to say, that's just stupid.

NekorusMar 17, 20191 votes

I agree mage items are pretty gay especially zhonyas since its so easy to rush with such good stats including the free stopwatch from the inspiration rune. Seraphs gives a pretty stupid barrier...well what i'm saying is that mage items have very stupid actives and way too much tankiness. Rod gives insane hp,Zhonyas gives so much survivability and don't even get me started on item 3148 .

HateDaddyMar 17, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I agree mage items are pretty gay especially zhonyas since its so easy to rush with such good stats including the free stopwatch from the inspiration rune. Seraphs gives a pretty stupid barrier...well what i'm saying is that mage items have very stupid actives and way too much tankiness. Rod gives insane hp,Zhonyas gives so much survivability and don't even get me started on .

chill dawg, edit that shit before you get in trouble.

NekorusMar 17, 20191 votes

[zombie-nunu-bummed]

RAKCUSMar 17, 20191 votes

If this really is an issue, you didn't provide enough evidence to support it.

The thigh guyMar 17, 20191 votes

Welcome to the life of everyone who has to deal with bruiser items.

Anime FizzMar 17, 20191 votes

The problem with ap items is that they are too good.

They give too much ap for also giving other stats, like you can have certian mages like brand having almost 3k health on their "full ap glass cannon" build, then theres items like the tear items that are over 160% gold efficient when fully stacked (better than fucking crit items efficiency when combined together).

Then you add hourglass, then you add permaslows with rylais, then you add *ignore literally every mr item) void staff, then you add the best 1 item powerspike in the game that gives everything a mage could possibly want (ludens), and theres not a lot of counterplay left to ap items, hexdrinker is the only thing thats ever effective against mages/ap champs but thats only in the early game, as maw of malmortius gets outscaled horribly hard by the mage itemization.

I think some mage items need to be split into multiple other items (would also make room for ap assassin and ap bruiser focused items, which are very lacking atm as riot focused too hard on making perfect mage items), like an item with such utility like rylas, hourglass, or even seraphs should not be granting so much ap on top of it, while some other items like ludens/void/deathcap are just straight up overtuned and needs their numbers to go down, mages are also scaling too hard for how good they are in general at most phases of the game, like if you build crit (a very good scaling build) you're weaker earlier as a trade off, now if you're a mage you get to rush ludens and then get to scale anyway with deathcap/void, you get the best of both worlds.