Remember when you had a 1v1 laning phase top lane that lasted longer than 2:30 minutes?

Rexxiee·Feb 26, 2018·46 votes·5,708 views

Right now lane ends the moment junglers show up lvl 3 at 2:30 with double buffs and full health while im still lvl 2.

Its fun being a sack of gold/free snowball ticket for the other jungler, i also like my top lane matchups being decided by which jungler ganks top lane first with the broken powerspike.

"but just play safe BRUH", yeah let me sit at tower until they slow push a big wave to dive and then im out of the game, what if im playing a early game champ vs say, nasus? Just let him free farm because junglers exist and are broken? "just dont play the game" is not acceptable counterplay.

Make it so junglers cant gank that early by increasing the camps damage to champs, massively reduce the Exp from first clear, idk do something to stop this bullshit, let me actually have a 1v1 top lane for once.

88 Comments

EedatFeb 26, 201818 votes

No because league never will be and never has been a 1v1 game. I'm kinda confused about top lane atm. You have half the people wanting it to be a 1v1 island while the other half want more contribution over the rest of the map. Those two don't really mix. You can't have top lane be an island for 25 minutes while expecting to be relevant in the game.

Blast cone spawn time was pushed back. That makes it so junglers have to either:

A) walk all the way through river which spots them out on your ward much sooner

B) burn a gap closer over the wall which makes their gank much much weaker

If you don't ward then that's on you. LoL is not a 1v1 game. Top lane is not for 1v1s

Milton FletcherFeb 26, 201813 votes

i want to 1v1 my laner and work withj my team after to win a game.

i dont want some BITCHMADE player going full tank ornn and AVOIDING ALL INTERACTION WITH ME , only to then do much more in teamfights while using 1/5th of my brain cells.

EedatFeb 26, 20185 votes

Too bad then. You don't get to decide to be isolated when you want and have the power to turn isolation off at will to roam. You don't get it both ways, sorry. There is no such thing as a 1v1 lane in LoL

Milton FletcherFeb 26, 20186 votes

i never said i wanted to be isolated.

we dont get either so why are u talking?

we arent isolated nor do we have the power to roam when need to sometimes.

tanks have insane wave clear and shit on u at all stages of the game.

EedatFeb 26, 20184 votes

What exactly do you think 1v1 means? It means you're isolated from both teams. Like I said, you don't get to choose to be isolated at some points then choose not to be when it's convenient to you. Lots of champs have good waveclear. If you don't manage the waves properly before leaving then that's on you. Leaving lane to help your team is a trade off that you need to decide on.

Milton FletcherFeb 27, 20185 votes

try to manage a wave agaisnt a 300 armor malphite who will walk up to u and stand on top of u if u try to cs or freeze.

try to manage a wave when the jungler is ganking you.

waiting for WoWFeb 26, 201824 votes

Yes because asking not to be ganked by someone 1 level higher than you with full HP and double buffs at 2:30 before you can buy control wards and becoming a free bag of 400 gold is the same as asking to be left alone for 25 minutes.

Riiiiiiiiight........

EedatFeb 26, 201822 votes

So what you're saying is you keep getting ganked at the exact same time every game. Riot should give us a free ward to place or something. Hmmmm

MuffledGarbageFeb 27, 20185 votes

Read the OP again.

Towerdives.

They exist and they are stupidly easy to pull off right now.

HibekiFeb 27, 20189 votes

as much as i agree that junglers are strong, nobody is 2v1 turret diving level 2. Played right that should be a double for you.

ProfDrDeathFeb 27, 20184 votes

If you get tower dove at level 2 and don't get a double kill for it, that's on your head. You got noone to blame but yourself.

RiotRiot MapleNectarFeb 28, 201817 votes

This feels like pretty solid hyperbole here. Tower dives don't happen at lvl 2/3 period, and as Edat has pointed out a few times, with blast cone spawn being pushed back, the enemy has very obvious routes that you can ward, whether you do is up to you.

CosnirakFeb 28, 201814 votes

I've tower dove people and been dove at lvl 2/3 plenty of times. It is decently rare but it does happen and I don't know why you'd say it doesn't happen "period." I don't think calling out hyperbole with hyperbole is the answer. In top there aren't that many gank routes but there are usually at least 3 viable ones if you're at all pushing and sometimes even if you aren't and you just can't keep it all warded by yourself.

In mid it feels like no matter what I ward I can be ganked from any direction without warning even if I'm playing reasonably safe. I literally avoided losing even my flash to a gank today in a game because I realized I'm close to lvl 3 but not quite there yet so obviously I'm about to get ganked and I backed up and missed a few cs just in time to barely avoid having to flash away from a J4 ganking me from behind the river wall in mid on my team's side of the map.

Avoiding ganks early relies heavily on your own jungler helping to scout and ward the enemy jungle and outside high ELO games that rarely happens.

RiotRiot MapleNectarFeb 28, 20188 votes

Phew - yep, you're 100% correct here to call me out on my reply...well that's embarrassing. In my brain as I wrote that I was thinking "they happen super rarely" but didn't do anything to convey that and added a "period" to boot. Thanks for calling me out on a shitty contribution to the discussion...and even then it was hardly a "contribution".

FouczFeb 28, 20183 votes

Tower dive lvl 3 are not happening often ? Elise

Teridax68Feb 28, 20182 votes

I think this just goes to show that even the best among us can be prone to the very same mistakes we trained ourselves against. We should still try not to argue using hyperbole, but hopefully this should make those instances a little more understandable, particularly since discussions like these can carry emotions from previous games or interactions.

What I think needs to stop, as well, is intervention that criticizes someone or their comment purely on their form: sure, this thread's OP exaggerates many of its claims, as does the player you responded to, and criticizing that is fine, but criticizing just that isn't, because people expect a more substantial response from a Rioter. Just by posting here, you've put an official stamp next to the thread that everyone on the front page of Gameplay will see, which will cause players to come here thinking that some Riot answer was given on the state of laning in top lane (this is, at any rate, what made me take a look here). It is disappointing to see a red response on the Gameplay Boards that doesn't say anything about the game or Riot's plans, but the fact that this response only tries to slap some random player on the wrist for poor typing form adds insult to injury.

I don't want this to come across as trying to discourage you from posting on the Boards, because I don't want that, but I do feel Gameplay should be a place for solid, gameplay-related discussion, and other sub-Boards exists for other topics (e.g. M&G or GD for non-serious discussion, Discuss the Boards/Player Behavior for player or Boards problems). As such, I and likely many other players would still be very interested in your thoughts on top lane and the state of the laning phase there. :)

CosnirakFeb 28, 20181 votes

Thanks for owning it.

Would love to hear from Riot about the issue I mentioned of how important junglers tracking enemy junglers is and how it almost never happens outside rather high ELO games, though preferably in a Riot created thread in the dev section. It feels like a completely different game when your team works together to track and respond to the enemy jungler. It strongly affects which champions should played, which runes to pick, how laning should be played, where to ward, and more. I think Riot can do better than essentially leaving low ELO players to suffer even if that particular player has learned just because their teammates have no clue about it.

sleepysithlordFeb 28, 20181 votes

In what elo are tower dives having succesfully at level 2/3? I'm in plat and the tower dives I see that early are usually messed up.

CosnirakFeb 28, 20181 votes

I see them happening successfully at every ELO, though they're not as likely to work at low ELO and at really high ELOs they tend to happen less often right now, at least from what I've seen. Depends a bit on which champions people are and thus the frequency depends partly on which champs are meta at the moment. But even ones that aren't well suited to it do it at times too.

Huang ShaotianFeb 28, 20181 votes

Going to have disagree pretty hard here. It's not possible to solo ward all gank routes, even if you're buying a pink every back. And even if you do ward it and do see the jungler due to movement creep on all champions a lot of times you just can't back away in time. And even if you DO back away in time it's usually at the cost of a flash and massive amount of minions.

Now I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the success rates on junglers making a successful kill has increased pretty signficantly over the past few years. I don't have access to the stats but I can say it certainly feels that way.

MorganFreemanBotFeb 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Huang Shaotian,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gguJcKnz,comment-id=000200010000000000020002,timestamp=2018-02-28T09:35:10.984+0000)

Going to have disagree pretty hard here. It's not possible to solo ward all gank routes, even if you're buying a pink every back. And even if you do ward it and do see the jungler due to movement creep on all champions a lot of times you just can't back away in time. And even if you DO back away in time it's usually at the cost of a flash and massive amount of minions.

Now I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the success rates on junglers making a successful kill has increased pretty signficantly over the past few years. I don't have access to the stats but I can say it certainly feels that way.

How to survive the first gank:

Ward your river brush at 2:30

Do not shove your lane hard.

Pay attention to if your laner suddenly goes aggro.

Congratz, you have successfully survived the level 3 gank.

Huang ShaotianMar 1, 20181 votes

Mmm I wonder why pro level players still die to first ganks often.. I guess even the worlds best players are no match for your strategies.

And has already been pointed out, even if you play it safe and avoid the gank. That comes at a big cost too. The whole point of this thread is that the jungler has too much power over top lane forcing top laners to play completely passive in order to avoid ganks. So suggesting that as the solution obviously means you didn't read the thread.

ValyrianBladeFeb 28, 20182 votes

You're blatantly disregarding a lot here.

The ward cooldown at lower levels is considerably less than its uptime. It isn't hard to ping when your Lane opponent places a ward and your jungler can come by 1min15sec later guaranteed to be unseen.

Red side top Lane has two distinct gank paths, River and tribush. You can only ward one. It isn't that hard for the faster jungler to walk around Rift Herald and come from that side, especially if your Lane opponent pings that you deep warded River.

Tower dives DO happen at levels 2-3. They may not be often, but they do happen. It's as OP pointed out, the tower dive can happen if he sits back and lets his opponent push in a big wave. Normally it's the Lane bully pushing in that wave, and the Lane bully isn't typically tanky enough to do an early dive. If you're a high damage Lane bully without lots of tankiness getting pushed in by a tank because you're respecting the obvious enemy jungle gank, you're ready to be dove by a maokai or Sion etc...

And as you specifically referred to Eedat's comment: I don't believe there's any inconsistency in what top Lane wants. The claim that 50% want a 1 on 1 Island while 50% want more interactivity with the team is simply false. 100% of people who play champions that have a decent Laning phase want the opportunity to win 1v1 before the jungler can decide the Lane. The ask has never been to have an island all game, it's to have 5 minutes or so to actually establish a lead before the jungler can camp you and make getting a lead impossible. If you're a Lane bully and can't get a lead by 5 min after minions spawned you probably didn't play great. If you're a Lane bully and didn't get a lead by 2:30 (the second wave of minions arrived in Lane) your opponent just didn't int. So obviously the people that play champions with weak Lane and strong scaling like it, that's no different than saying some people like yasuo buffs (people that would play yasuo) and some people don't (pretty much everyone else).

Most top Lane players want agency and interactivity, but they also want an opportunity to actually showcase individual skill. Jungle has had too much threat to allow top Lane to have any agency whatsoever for more than a full season now. If junglers came on board a few minutes later, top Lane would get that full benefit of time to start getting a lead and transition it to the map. The lack of map presence isn't contradictory to wanting 1v1 early, it's actually complimentary.

zarxus1234Feb 28, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gguJcKnz,comment-id=00020001000000000002,timestamp=2018-02-28T03:48:11.890+0000)

This feels like pretty solid hyperbole here. Tower dives don't happen at lvl 2/3 period, and as Edat has pointed out a few times, with blast cone spawn being pushed back, the enemy has very obvious routes that you can ward, whether you do is up to you.

lol sad when riot doesn't even see it as an issue. When every game it happens. but oh well.

Sun Wu RyuumokuFeb 26, 20188 votes

the mistake is on u. Its the lane were wave management is the most important. u have the timer and u have ur jungler to know when u'll be ganked. if u die at each time its ur fault.

MuffledGarbageFeb 27, 20182 votes

The enemy jungler and toplaner can just stand on top of minion wave and deny all chance of getting CS then towerdive when minion-wave crashes into the tower.

Sun Wu RyuumokuFeb 27, 20183 votes

they cant dive u so early, unless u f*cked up.

Bob the ToastrFeb 27, 20182 votes

Hah, you think turrets can do damage. Cute joke.

MuffledGarbageFeb 27, 20182 votes

Most toplaners and junglers can take 4 tower shots each.

Tower shots are roughly 1.2 per second

Assuming that you aren't at full health and that you didn't opt into a item 1029 start, the enemy jungler and toplaner can dive you at no cost for 7 seconds total.

More than enough time to kill ANY toplaner with the lack of earlygame defenses(not including item 2423 cause that item is op)

HibekiFeb 27, 20182 votes

Once the turret ramps up its not absurd to see someone die in 2 at 80% hp

MuffledGarbageFeb 28, 20181 votes

Keywords are "ONCE THE TURRET RAMPS UP"

That means AFTER the 6 second mark at most.

HibekiFeb 28, 20184 votes

you mean after 2 turret shots.

GayFluffyUnicornFeb 28, 20181 votes

They can easily dive you.

Sun Wu RyuumokuFeb 28, 20181 votes

i speak for the very very early

GayFluffyUnicornMar 1, 20181 votes

I mean i've been literally doven lvl 2 by a maokai from full health so idk. Was a maokai jungle and i was GP but yeah. Aftershock is fun.

SubdueFeb 27, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=waiting for WoW,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gguJcKnz,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-02-26T22:23:33.313+0000)

Yes because asking not to be ganked by someone 1 level higher than you with full HP and double buffs at 2:30 before you can buy control wards and becoming a free bag of 400 gold is the same as asking to be left alone for 25 minutes.

Riiiiiiiiight........

So the problem here is that you have to play conservatively for 3 minutes until you hit level 3?

How long does the jungler keep that level lead?

RenownedWheat42Feb 27, 20183 votes

Don't attempt to use logic here, friend.

GayFluffyUnicornFeb 28, 20181 votes

You can't afford that in a lot of matchups. Educate yourself before making dumb comments about a game you don't understand.

I may afkFeb 26, 201813 votes

They straight up overbuffed both starting jungle items in 7.22 in order to overcompensate junglers for the new runes. Returning them both back to normal would be a good start.

It's funny how a champion like Zac that got nerfed for patches straight in season 7 and had one of the worst clears at the very end of season 7 managed to make his way back to the top of the food chain by abusing the overbuffed jungle items.

YennFeb 27, 201811 votes

You mean you want to be rewarded for being a generally bad player with moderate mechanical skill who is too stupid to ward or play safely during that 10 second window where the jungle wants to gank top lane, which happens at the same time in every single game, because you won a duel at level 6 and now your lane opponent can't even leave the tower without you going all in like a monkey and 100 to 0'ing them?

Okay.

Top lane is garbage and everything possible should be done to stop the monkeys who main it from climbing.

T4underboltFeb 27, 20187 votes

I think you don't play this game. It's not 10 seconds window. After first clear champs have high respawn time. Enemy jungler can sit around top for up to 2 minutes making it impossible to farm or trade. We need camps to spawn faster so jungler actually lose something when they spend time camping the lane instead of farming. Just like laners lose creeps when roaming, junglers should lose something on behalf of other jungler who chose to farm one more rotation instead of sitting the lane.

Milton FletcherFeb 26, 20187 votes

laning against a mlphite that legit straight rushed tabis into glacial giving him 500 armor 15 minutes in and riot wants me to play safe.

i legit had to rush a tiamat because RIOT GAVE A FULL TANK CHAMP BETTER WAVE CLEAR THAN A MELEE BRUISER!!!!!

on top of that ive been ganked 6 times before level 8 and i cant leave my tower unless i want to get chunked.

Sun Wu RyuumokuFeb 26, 20183 votes

i legit had to rush a tiamat because RIOT GAVE A FULL TANK CHAMP BETTER WAVE CLEAR THAN A MELEE BRUISER!!!!!

same

laning against a mlphite that legit straight rushed tabis into glacial giving him 500 armor 15 minutes in and riot wants me to play safe.

wont be an issue in few patches

TheWoollyMammothFeb 26, 20183 votes

I've become a top lane main since our last run in on the boards good sir. I get my ass handed to me on occasion by early jungle pressure. It is my fault for tunneling and forgetting that the jungle would be there at 2:30.

Both teams have junglers. If their jungler is up top at 2:30, so is yours. If you are playing an early champ into nasus, OF COURSE a good jungle will gank your ass. A good jungle will gank 3-4 times. Just to ENSURE that nasus gets ahead, becuase if he doesn't, nasus will lose lane, and then when the jungle reaches 6, he will be unable to properly apply pressure bot. Cause you will be fed, and he will need to rescue his under farmed and weak nasus.

It is the job of your jungle to A- Counter gank him and get you gold. or . B snowball bot and mid to hell while he is protecting nasus. It is your job to make that possible AND to make it easier for your jungle to gank by last hitting just underneath your turret range.

Manipulate the minion wave, quit bitching jungle O.P when you are being stupid and you should KNOW it.

And realize that this is a team game and Macro>Micro.

Sahn UzalFeb 27, 20184 votes

The way I see it, there's few scenarios in which Dying isn't a mistake. If you die? You most likely fucked up, one way or another.

You are right that it's our job to take the situations given to us and make the best of it, thus expecting and respecting the early toplane gank and playing accordingly.

What is up to debate though, is wether or not we should need to play the way we are.

I'm really just playing devil's advocate here, because I think you and the OP are kinda talking past each other here.

TheWoollyMammothFeb 27, 20182 votes

I'm really just playing devil's advocate here, because I think you and the OP are kinda talking past each other here.

^This is probably more accurate then I realized at time of typing response.

BUT (and it is a large one) I am happy when the enemy jungle camps me. It means that my coinflip botlane has that much more chance to win lane. Am I behind? ya, the camp usually puts me about 20 cs behind, maybe a level. But That is one player behind, instead of 2. And if I fall behind, I can still be annoying as hell to the enemy carries. If my adc and sup fall behind... Well, that usually gg.

Sahn UzalFeb 27, 20182 votes

That's an entirely different issue :P Doesn't make what you said any less true though.