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Last Whisper Items are Essentially better than Lethality for Assassins(in terms of dmg) check it out

Dreadlocks··11 votes·3,402 views

item 3033 50 AD 35% Bonus armor pen and Grievous Wounds for 5s item 3142 60 AD (soon 55) 15 Lethality.

So we all know that Bonus Arm Pen is items/runes/masteries and Lethality is 60% value up front 40% based on enemy level..

I'm not going to super number crunch this but for a small example lets say an ADC buys item 3047 30 armor, and has 9x armor yellows............... 39 Bonus Armor item 3033 39(.35) = 13.65 Armor Pen item 3142 Flat Armor Penetration = LETHALITY × (0.6 + 0.4 × Target's level ÷ 18) Correct me if i'm wrong, havn't done this formula in awhile, 9 flat upfront pen, and if the target is say level 10, thats roughly 3 more arm pen, total, 12 Armor pen.

Even if they didn't get Tabis, Maybe they get a GA.. Same thing.. What if they have Tabi + GA.. you get 24 Armor Pen from item 3033

Obviously Lethality items offer other things outside of damage, but the anit-healing on item 3033 is probably being undervalued for assassins..

Basically what i'm trying to get at is.. Why is Riot making all the lethality items 55 AD as if the 15 Lethality is suppose to make up for the lack of ad.. When Assassins could just keep opting for item 3812 item 3156 item 3026 and be more durable while having just as much if not more damage.. And if they really needed a Pen item then item 3033 is imo a better option to fill that need.

48 Comments

Vapor Wave Vibes8 votes

Lethality items are better against people with no armor and last whisper is better against people with armor.

Dreadlocks5 votes

Well duh. But what i'm saying even vs just Tabis the LW item is going to do more damage for most of the game. And if you get the anti-healing it'll probably go even further than the lethality items.. Again, this isn't discrediting the other actives/passives on the Lethality items, but in terms of cutting through an ADC.. Mortal Reminder should be considered WAY more esp after these AD nerfs to lethality.

Rainfall5 votes

you can build both.

FantasySniper1 votes

Saying that Lethality is better against "less armor" is misleading. Lethality has the same effect no matter how much armor someone has. % Bonus Arm. Pen. just becomes better at a certain point.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

Lethality is better than Last Whisper against people with no armor.

Last Whisper is bettter than Lethality against people with armor.

Rexxiee5 votes

Well of course, anything is better than lethality in its current state its garbage tier.

TálØnly5 votes

They kept nerfing the ad of these items duskblade 75 coming patch 55 ghostblade 65 coming patch 55 edge of night 60 coming patch 55 (if they keep that shit like that) not considering the armorpen nerfs which makes it even worser

Dreadlocks2 votes

I think part of the issue is Riot is still stuck in this "assassins window" where they're like "oh it'll be so cool if assassins out play their opponent using all these cool tricks instead of just blowing them up quickly.."

Meanwhile..item 3812 item 3046 item 3047 item 3026 item 3109 item 3190 .... Pretty sure the fantasy around "outplaying -/- stat checking" is completely flipped at this point.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

not considering the armorpen nerfs which makes it even worser

this isn't true... lethality is better.

Handin Out Naps4 votes

Don't build lethality lol, the stat is a joke. Even Zed's build is shit like item 3812 item 3071 item 3153 /item 3074 item 3046 item 3156 item 3026 item 3139 item 3035 now.

Dreadlocks2 votes

And then they think after showing all the bad stats on the item, that pointing out that it'll scale with YOUR level now is going to change anything lol. "oh you mean i get .5 more lethality!!! WORTH!"

ModKnightsKemplar4 votes

What you are negelcting to treat here, though, is that lethality can stack, and % penetration can't. It SHOULD be that the one armor pen item is more effective than ONE lethality item against someone with ANY armor. That changes as soon as you factor in the rest of the builds, though.

I don't do a lot of math crunch, but compare Mortal Reminder + Infinity Edge against Duskblade + Ghostblade against the same hypothetical foe. Let me know if I'm wrong.

Dreadlocks2 votes

What.. Sure u can stack lethality, I get that, but im saying if ur trying to get thru an adc who had tabis or ga, mortal reminder wins out.. Then only time full lethality is better is if they have zero armor items, and only runes..

And dont u think its a little oppressive that an adc can so easily counter an assassins items with little to no trade offs?

ModKnightsKemplar3 votes

Lethality builds need more than 20 lethality to function. If ALL you build is 20 lethality, yeah, you're going to suck. That's a given. Riot knows that and that's intended.

Again, calculate full build, and let me know if you aren't more effective against GA + tabis than one % armor pen item. THAT would be a problem. Your one item hypothetical doesn't represent a realistic situation in game; you don't just build what's best at 15 minutes, you have to consider where that build is going.

Dreadlocks2 votes

I can tell u right now that mortal reminder would fill as a better item slot than a 3rd lethality item.. Thats a no brainer. Lets also take into account how little gold needs to be invested and little build path changing is needed to counter an ad assassin these days..

ModKnightsKemplar3 votes

It's a no brainer if you want to kill people with LOTS of armor. That's the point. Third lethality item helps more against squishy targets.

I mean, if that's what you're building in game on AD assassins, I would fully expect you to think they are easy to counter. If you made an AD carry build ninja tabi and a GA before they get I edge and a crit/atk speed item, you did your job well. They are a less effective carry as a result, and they haven't actually stopped you from being able to kill them (in balanced cases, let's leave Draven out of this).

I'm just trying to help. You argument seemed to be asking someone to explain why you should build lethality, and I'm trying to do that. You're welcome to do the math to confirm or refute, but that's what I would need to see to change my mind. 60 lethality is VERY good against carries. I don't see a way around that.

Dreadlocks2 votes

Well yeah 60 Lethality isn't bad vs carries, i'm saying i could opt for 1 or 2 lethality items and get a item 3033 instead of a 3rd lethality item and have better results.. There is no scaling lethality item now, other than the 40% that is based on champion level which is tied into all the items..

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

It seems like a good choice to me. I want both of those things to be viable on AD assassins, based on their goals. If they want to help bust the tanks, % pen should be viable. But if it's ever objectively better to ALWAYS have % pen, that's a problem. I at least agree with you on that; I'm not convinced that's the case right now, but if it were, it would be problematic.

(sidenote: note sure why people are downvoting you. I think this is a good discussion we're having)

Dreadlocks1 votes

Eh its the boards, if i had 40 upvotes then people would be like "oh wow this guy makes a good point" but because it didnt shoot up, people dont circle jerk XD. Not that it was what i wanted, i still think i make a valid case for buying Mortal Reminder. Esp in the current meta.

Variks the Loyal3 votes

Two things.

One, with Runes Reforged, people won't be able to opt into Armor through Runes anymore, and compensation for that will largely be given to junglers for clearing (And likely in the form of camp damage nerfs instead of Armor buffs).

Two, Tabis being built on ADCs isn't because of Lethality, but because the offensive option is lacking. Berserker's Greaves should actually be buffed to make them a better buy for AS based characters than Tabi's are. Personally, I would make them have extra movement speed while in combat, probably something like +20, sorta like an opposite of Mobi Boots.

Dreadlocks2 votes

Uhhh no, Tabi's is being bought because it's just a good boot. It helps you duel other AA'er (aka, the other adc) and it mitigates a lot of assassin's damage. ADC's in the past use to only get 1 attack speed item then they'd build AD.. (vayne/twitch being an exception of course) Now you generally get 2 attack speed items anyways so the beserkers arn't a must. YES you can get them, they're still good boots. But in terms of surviving which AD's tend to do these days.. Tabi's are a great option.

Ralanr2 votes

Getting berserkers when all crit items except ER and IE give AS seems overkill anyway imo.

Dreadlocks2 votes

Exactly

Variks the Loyal2 votes

That in and of itself means that ADCs need a better offensive boot option, either in the form of Berserkers or a new boot.

ADCs shouldn't build defensives. If we solve that issue, Lethality's role falls into place.

Dreadlocks1 votes

No it means they get enough attack speed thru all the zeal items and other attack speed items that they can use, hense they dont need it on boots

Variks the Loyal2 votes

Doesn't need to be an Attack Speed boot.

Dreadlocks1 votes

Exactly why they can afford tabis with very little tradeoffs

Variks the Loyal2 votes

I think you're missing what I'm trying to say. I'm saying there needs to be a viable and desirable offensive boot option for ADCs so that they don't want to invest into Tabis. It doesn't need to be Attack Speed boots; it can bring other offensive power somehow. But if a new boot is introduced that ADCs would opt into, they would no longer build Tabis, you wouldn't need to nerf Tabi's for it's intended users, and Lethality would function against ADCs as intended.

Dreadlocks2 votes

I think the bigger problem is ADC's have far more options than any class.. Instead of just making some items melee only, they cater to ADCs by not doing so. Thus why an ADC item such as Mortal Reminder, is better than a 2nd Lethality item.. thats pretty sad.

Variks the Loyal1 votes

You're not wrong. I agree that it's high time we make some items melee only, but I do understand Riot's reluctance; doing so forcibly crushes player creativity and has the potential of feeling a bit tyrannical. "Play the game how we say or else." Etc.

At this point, though, a certain number of items should at least have reduced benefits for ranged champions.

Dreadlocks1 votes

doing so forcibly** crushes player creativity** and has the potential of feeling a bit tyrannical

They don't care about this anymore sadly. I don't mean this in an aggressive way either.. But they simply have shown they don't care for it.. AP yi.. Gone, AP trynd.. Gone.. Rek'sai's old burrow Q ap scaling.. nerfed.. Crit on Assassins? Practically non existant now.. Now they're after Kennen's AD build :D

Sadly the use of items to feel creative is disappearing more than you probably think.. Riot has been pigeon holing champions into specific builds for awhile now..

nm10103 votes

You kind of devalued the 5 extra ad and the active on ghostblade, but the point still stands that lethality is garbo against any cloth armor item.

Dreadlocks2 votes

I didny devalue anything, I focused on the point which was lethality vs bonus armor pen. I didnt go into actives and passives too much because those values change depending on the champs and the game. But the value of pen is a more independent variable for this.

nm10102 votes

Damage with lw item and 150 ad vs 39 armor = ~119 damage

Damage with Youmuu's vs lvl 10 and 155 ad vs 39 armor = ~122 damage

Damage with lw item and 250 ad vs 39 armor = ~198

Damage with Youmuu's vs lvl 10 and 255 ad vs 39 armor = ~200

Damage with lw item and 150 ad vs 69 armor = ~104

Damage with Youmuu's vs lvl 18 and 150 = ~100

Even if the adc picked up a GA the assassin loses 4% damage due to that 5 ad making up some ground. Ergo you devalued the item based on its pen stat when its ad stat picks up the difference pretty well. This is true vs tabi armor seals always.

Dreadlocks1 votes

The problem with your math is that Lethality is a flat amount. So assuming that the ADC only has 39 armor is silly, that would be on top of his base armor that he gets with levels.. so really your math should be something like this..

Lucian armor at lvl 10 = 47.3 + 39 armor = 86 armor still 12 armor pen on Youmuus for this example.. so reduced to 74 armor

Idk what math you are doing to get the ~Damage part.. (and i don't mean that in an insulting way, i'm ignorant) But if you wana do 155 AD vs 74 armor, ull see a difference, then do the same thing with the LW item which gives roughly 14 armor pen... so vs 72 armor..

Could u share the math behind your AD vs Armor = Damage ? I'm curious, its obviously pretty close as you have figured. Def a much better discussion than i originally thought. Does what i bring up make a difference? Thanks for response.

nm10101 votes

The problem with your math is that Lethality is a flat amount. So assuming that the ADC only has 39 armor is silly, that would be on top of his base armor that he gets with levels.. so really your math should be something like this...

Armor is a static ratio, as long as the %pen amount is the same it doesn't matter what base armor they have, it will never make a difference. I proved that here for MR and they have the same formulas, the amount of MR didn't change the ratio of effectiveness for flat ap blues vs mpen blues. You would still have to have to do the same proportion of damage to kill.

https://i.gyazo.com/e5e644271bfad3079a9275ffa22d6ed2.png

Lucian armor at lvl 10 = 47.3 + 39 armor = 86 armor still 12 armor pen on Youmuus for this example.. so reduced to 74 armor

Yeah it's still 12 armor pen on Youmuus and still 13.65 pen on lw.

Idk what math you are doing to get the ~Damage part.. (and i don't mean that in an insulting way, i'm ignorant) But if you wana do 155 AD vs 74 armor, ull see a difference, then do the same thing with the LW item which gives roughly 14 armor pen... so vs 72 armor..

AD x Reduction from armor (100/[100+armor]) = Raw damage from an auto, its on the wiki.

https://i.gyazo.com/67f9303d63708663ce9c7bb9999b5c0a.png

LW

150 x (100/[100+72]) = ~87.209302

Youmuu

155 x (100/100+74) = ~89.080459

The 5 AD does make it a little closer than I originally thought (about a half of a damage point) since ad is inversely affected by armor, to actually switch the LW to being better (without the target buying more armor) you would need about 200 base armor though so I don't see that being a thing.

Def a much better discussion than i originally thought. Does what i bring up make a difference? Thanks for response.

Yeah it is really close for sure and I do think heal reduction in the current meta is worth its weight in gold. As is though Youmuu's can stand up by itself, but in 2 item powerspikes Mortal Reminder starts to pummel it by a good 10 damage even against just tabi. Against 2 armor items it gets significantly outclassed pretty quickly, I'd be willing to say the small powerspike on Youmuus isn't worth building it next patch. Duskblade with a Mortal Reminder will be a much better early and mid game spike with better stats for less gold.

BakedLotion2 votes

item 3142 is a rush item. You get everything you need for early and mid game LW is not

Enraged Piglet1 votes

I'm pretty sure people build youmuu's for the active/better build path/cdr and a lot of assasains also do have the potential to build LW as well later. Also any item changes might be in preparation for the fact that there changing the runes system.

Dreadlocks2 votes

I mentioned a couple times that this isnt taking account too much the passives.. In terms of straight up damage, as soon as someone completes just 1 armor item.. LW is better for breaking it. Yes the MS active is great on Youmuus, i'm not denying that at all. I'm just saying that i think a lot of Assassins could really benefit from Mortal Reminder when looking into how well it goes through tabis + GA/ 9x yellows. vs the Lethality items. Plus with all the healing on sups/ ADCs, the Grievous wounds is worth it over another Lethality item.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

u have potentialy 30 AD without any items lethality, thats for begin. then after next update lethality won't scale with ennemy level but our : its a buff (u are most of time above adc).

and in the end i don't think u shoud oppose item 3035 & item 3134 items. U can build both.

Btw u are forgetting one thing... the build path.

Dreadlocks1 votes

The level scaling thing wont be that impactful, and u are forgetting that none of these items will scale as well as before... The build path and cdr are good yes, but the damage lost is not worth the price reduction or in youmuus casex increase

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

The build path and cdr are good yes, but the damage lost is not worth the price reduction or in youmuus casex increase

I totaly agree for youmuu. But in the end assassin will still build it and stack lethality. I think assassin will have a better mid

my thought :

Assassin needed cdr and are forced to build item 3071. But due to new build path u are forced to abandon some damage during the time where this item isn't complete (item 3067.

Common build atm are :

item 3142 > item 3071 >item 3147 : this build delay ur spike and ur "OS" potential

item 3142 > item 3147 >item 3071 : this build is the most common, but... u need cdr, without it ur champ is pretty meh.

Edit : item 3814 will still be garbage IMO

Kloqdq1 votes

I mean I like to grab Mortal just because healing this meta is really strong. G. Wounds are actually undervalued a lot right now. If we had someway to hit through shields harder than we'd finally reach a balance.

Dreadlocks1 votes

I wonder if riot could actually make a Lethality item ( a new one ) that had grievous wounds.. or would that be too op lol.

Kloqdq1 votes

Frankly it would become an adc item with current Riot. A grievous wound item designed for assassins and divers would MASSIVELY help out against the unkillable adc meta we have driven towards.

Dreadlocks1 votes

Wouldn't that be great lol

Tusutaki1 votes

Because you're not including Lethality from other sources such as runes and masteries which can easily rack up to 50+ flat armor pen alone.

Dreadlocks1 votes

You can get bonus pen from the offensive tree as well.. Not to mention this doesn't change that mortal reminder is a much better armor shredder for assassins than credit is given.. The anti-healing goes a long way vs many ADCs

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