What happened to addressing melee vs ranged matchups?

Śhunpo·Nov 23, 2019·48 votes·13,518 views

does this count? (it doesn't, this change was worthless)

Over the games I've played in season 10 it legitimately feels exactly the same as before and they've changed NOTHING about melee vs ranged lanes. If anything creep block got WORSE.

Before I go off on a rant I'll leave things short and concise? Where are our melee vs ranged changes? They were promised and they're not here :/

P.S: I especially feel for top laners who have no now deal with bs like Conqueror Ryze, Phase Rush Kennen+Quinn, PtA Vayne+Trist etc.

55 Comments

iiGazeiiNov 23, 201915 votes

The Doran's Shield buff increased the healing by 60% if you're taking constant poke.

30 HP over 10 sec = 3 HPS 40 HP over 8 sec = 5 HPS

It's quite substantial.

ŚhunpoNov 23, 201914 votes

Yes, but I shouldn't NEED to take Doran's Shield EVERY game just to play against a ranged champion.

Furthermore, creep aggro and creep block are still incredibly detrimental if you're playing a melee champion, and it's not uncommon for a single minion to change your entire pathing upon coming into contact with even one creep, and it's especially bad when you take walls into consideration.

I agree that the D.Shield buff is nice, however, it is not enough to properly address how unfun and frustrating it is to face ranged champions in solo lanes as melee champions. There needs to be fixes done to creeps, tower plating, overall damage, resistances etc. moreso than just changing one item and being like "Hey, we're done!".

WoonStruckNov 23, 201921 votes

That's...kinda how it works though.

To offset range vs melee differences early game you take doran's shield. This works similarly to the shield starting item in DotA in purpose.

Do you want to automatically beat range or something?

Princess BunheadNov 23, 201915 votes

How about just wanting a fair chance vs ranged? There's nothing fun or engaging about playing into a ranged as melee - only hardcore frustration, as you don't get to farm much or really play the game if they have half a brain. There needs to be counterplay of some sort, be it through new map mechanics or items.

I don't mind getting counterpicked when it's melee vs melee, because it's usually a much fairer mathcup, with a far bigger chance of winning, than vs ranged.

I.e. I can deal with winning or losing to a Darius just fine, as he has clear counterplay, and if I lose I usually know where I misstepped and that I had a chance. When dealing with Karma, Kennen, Quinn, etc etc, you just autolose the lane, unless they by some miracle are 1+ full divisions below you in skill, and even then, it can be a hard sell.

They could buff Doran's shield to 80 HP over 8 sec and it still wouldn't matter in those matchups, as it's still based on missing health and not nearly enough, so you'll still be at like 40-60% health at best, and can't all-in easily either. For starters, they could remove the missing health condition when getting hit by ranged attacks.

However, I also think extra hp regen on hit is a cheap way of solving it, and worse, it would be insanely hard to balance properly that way - as too much and ranged are useless, too little and melee are useless.

But hey, at least klepto is gone...

ŚhunpoNov 23, 20197 votes

Mmm, autolosing the lane is my biggest issue with the whole melee vs ranged dilemma.

ADCs and mages whinge about bruisers, assassins and tanks "oneshotting" them, meanwhile when they effectively turn the game down to easy mode by picking a ranged laner into a solo laner we're not allowed to whinge back.

Seriously, just play Kennen top and you auto win the lane. Even if you're a terrible player you can still solo kill most players who are better than you simply by pressing R and running at them. Or how about just play Ryze and spam E->Q until you outfarm them by 30+ CS, outroam them, out CC your opponent AND outdamage your opponent.

Sure, Darius insta-gibbing you when you get even remotely into melee range is bs, but that's how things have to be since ranged champions can still duel you even when they're in melee range of you, or worse, they disengage with their dedicated "you burnt Flash to engage on me so now it's back to waiting 5 minutes for your Flash to come back up and for the lane to be stonewalled again thanks to me pressing my one safety button".

D.Shield's change is great and all....but ranged champions are still very much autowinning lanes, and so far my games of Season 10 have pretty much shown to me that ranged meta seems to be the thing (usually with the jungler being the only melee champ).

TTg Scirocco5Nov 23, 20197 votes

How care if klepto is gone ? New conq being useless on bruiser is beyond busted on range mages now So riot just gave them even better reason to go toplane Since bruiser cant do shitt anymore

Voluug13Nov 24, 20192 votes

Its only good on Ryze tho, on Cassio she is too squishy to make use of the heal and basically no other mage can really use it beyond meme or troll builds.

So its just a Ryze rune now lmfao

Pierce The VealNov 24, 20191 votes

Yeah that’s why it’s the highest winrate Casseiopeia rune, even surpassing arcane comet which Casseiopeia could abuse HARD (since spell spamming lowers arcane comet’s cooldown).

Voluug13Nov 24, 20191 votes

Its because its the first rune that has ever been synergistic on her (every other main rune has always been dog shit for DoT/sustained mages, so no wonder its her highest winrate one), and it still doesnt really break her beyond bulling Darius and like other 3 juggernauts on toplane, since even with it she is still squishy and easy to dive and extremely mana hungry until you buy a 2nd mana item.

Pierce The VealNov 25, 20191 votes

But, no it isn’t? Arcane comet is ridiculously synergistic on her? Her E spam makes arcane comet do absurd amounts of damage.

Not to mention phase rush, while lackluster, compared to arcane comet, is pretty damn good?

Oh, and you were saying her dots were bad? If for some silly reason you want to maximize her dot damage over taking the absurd arcane comet, summon aery can proc multiple times on her dots?

Back to arcane comet, each tick of her poison reduces its cooldown by 5%. Each E she hits reduces it by 20%. She can and does literally have 1-2 arcane comet procs flying out every second. And you mean to tell me that conqueror is the FIRST synergistic rune on her? You’re high man lol. Arcane comet can easily do 5000+ damage in a 20 minute game.

ŚhunpoNov 25, 20191 votes

Also Azir, Heim and Vlad.

VerxintNov 23, 20196 votes

Actually DotA doesn't work that way - I think Poor Man's Shield is gone, but even then melee is not forced to take it to lane.

RaenyNov 24, 20191 votes

I wish they ripped that item 1:1. Having flat damage reduced on AAs you take would be so nice for you wouldnt get bullied out by some ADC going top.

GenericFunnyNameNov 24, 20193 votes

Yes, I want to automatically beat ranged champion A MAGE in a fighter fucking lane. Let me introduce you to kennen vs FUCKING ANYTHING MELEE TOP matchup. If you play something immobile, you camp your bush and cs and try to not get poked. Kennen will push you out of the lane simply by autoattacking you with his 550 RANGE. THAT IS 25 MORE THAN LUCIAN, THAT IS EXACTLY THE RANGE OF MOST AD CARRIES. If you play something like Darius or anything with slither of hope of grabbing kennen to your range, you have to hope for Kennen player to fuck up. Why? BECAUSE THAT PULL IS BALANCED AROUND MELEE MATCHUPS WITH 535 RANGE. DO YOU NOT FUCKING SEE THE PROBLEM HERE? TOP LANERS ARE BALANCED AROUND TOP LANE MATCHUPS. KENNEN CASSIOPEIA RYZE AND ETCETTERA ARE JUST A FUCKING PROOF THAT HASHINSHIN IS FUCKING RIGHT. IF MAGES CAN BE PLAYED IN TWO LANES EFFICIENTLY AND SHITTING ON SOMEONE WHO PLAYS HIS LANE THAT HE SPECIALIZES IN THAT LANE SOMETHING IS CLEARLY WRONG. YES I DO FUCKING EXPECT TO AUTOWIN TOP LANE IF MY OPPONENT IS A FUCKING MAGE, ADC, RANGED, SUPPORT SAME LIKE WHEN YOU FUCKING EXPECT TO DESTROY THAT DARIUS AS ADC ON BOT LANE BECAUSE HE DOESNT FUCKING UTILIZE HIS SUPPORT PROPERLY. SAME AS YOU EXPECT TO BE MORE RELEVANT THAN THAT DARIUS MID BECAUSE HE IS SLOW AND IMMOBILE AND HIS GANKS ARE FUCKING ABYSMAL. TOP LANE IS A FUCKING ISLAND. 1V1 LANE. THE FUCKING END. AND NOONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO 1V1 TOP LANERS. BECAUSE THAT IS THE VERY FUCKING DEFINITION OF THAT ROLE. DUMB SLOW BIG HARD TO KILL. THE, FUCKING, END.

Pierce The VealNov 24, 20191 votes

It’s not like dorans shield even makes you even as it stands.

Z3SIeeperNov 23, 20193 votes

Yes, but at the same time, Cassiopeia and Ryze now have Conqueror permanently up and Quinn/Vayne have an even stronger rush item.

vgamedudeNov 23, 201910 votes

It is gross. Look at melee vs ranged in this game vs dota.

Imagine if you could actually have the ATTACK DAMAGE CARRY be a melee user like jax, trynd etc. No variety allowed in league though! Have to constantly cater to those marksmen and their right click outplay.

Daddy AntsNov 23, 20192 votes

{quoted}

It is gross. Look at melee vs ranged in this game vs dota.

Imagine if you could actually have the ATTACK DAMAGE CARRY be a melee user like jax, trynd etc. No variety allowed in league though! Have to constantly cater to those marksmen and their right click outplay.

That's funny because there's plenty of Swain, Heimer, Cassio, Syndra being played bot lane.

vgamedudeNov 23, 20197 votes

{quoted}

That's funny because there's plenty of Swain, Heimer, Cassio, Syndra being played bot lane.

No there isn't. Unless you count probably around 3 percent pick rate for ALL non marskmen bot laners "plenty". Swain is under 1 percent, around half a percent according to op gg.

adc players allergic to facts.

Weiner the PoohNov 23, 20191 votes

Mages Run rampant forever and you blame marksmen? Riot is so happy their brainwashing has paid off.

Daddy AntsNov 23, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Weiner the Pooh,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gcMhLtz6,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2019-11-23T21:47:39.290+0000)

Mages Run rampant forever and you blame marksmen? Riot is so happy their brainwashing has paid off.

I'm blaming Marksmen?

wot

Weiner the PoohNov 23, 20191 votes

Yeah. I meant to reply to the guy who replied to you who said the thing about marksmen.

WoonStruckNov 23, 20198 votes

Uh, they buffed the regen speed by 20%, and buffed it by 33% for melee champs receiving single target hits. Its effectively unchanged in other cases, with the exception of ranged taking AoE damage, where it was significantly nerfed.

The only new thing is conqueror ranged champs. Everything else was already there, and was aided with the doran's shield changes.

Z3SIeeperNov 23, 20196 votes

Yeah the Dshield change was good, really good. It's just being offset by ranged Conq abuse and Sanguine Blade abuse currently, which will most likely (hopefully) be addressed.

A lot of the ranged tops aren't autowinning lane anymore, it's really just Cass, Ryze, Quinn and Vayne who are being asses right now with Conq and Sanguine Blade.

Teemo, Vlad, Trist, Jayce and Gnar are all pretty alright atm.

Even Urgot is doing really well now, and he was probably one of the people who got bullied out by ranged tops the most.

Also the loss of Klepto plays heavily into why Kennen and Kayle are no longer massive issues.

Voluug13Nov 24, 20191 votes

Sanguine Blade Cass is my favorite build.

Anu3isIINov 23, 20195 votes

Besides the Doran's change (which is a significant buff), they removed Klepto, the main crutch of most lane bullies in Top Lane. Now they will no longer have a huge gold advantage, potions that boost their stats significantly and literally free wards. Klepto users will be much more easier to punish and set behind.

ŚhunpoNov 23, 20195 votes

Great! That still doesn't help me combat their range advantage, pathing+positioning advantage and safety!

Klepto being gone was a necessity as it broke top lane as a whole, now we need some actual game balance done to the lane.

Spicy RiceNov 23, 20198 votes

I mean, not like you can just take D Shield and second wind, build a defensive item, and freeze, forcing them to over-extend and therefore get fucked by ganks.

Not like having a ranged top essentially screws over a team as they lose a potentially front-liner.

Now, i won't say it's fun, but getting counter picked is never fun. The fact that there are ways to mitigate ranged advantages and clear downsides to playing ranged tops makes it balanced though.

DrohhanNov 23, 20197 votes

just a few things to address here.

in a ranged vs. melee matchup, you will never get the chance to freeze the lane, because they can do it first, safely, and zone you off cs, and that junglers in this meta are not playing top side to gank over extending players unless it's absolutely free, drakes are too important, other than that you are correct.

Crescent DuskNov 23, 20192 votes

{quoted}

just a few things to address here.

in a ranged vs. melee matchup, you will never get the chance to freeze the lane, because they can do it first, safely, and zone you off cs, and that junglers in this meta are not playing top side to gank over extending players unless it's absolutely free, drakes are too important, other than that you are correct.

It's not that drakes are important.

It's that jg xp is gutted and now when you visit top lane the enemy top laner is easily 2-3 levels ahead of you. You are literally asking to get 3 shot by the enemy Darius/Kled/Fiora.

Before as warwick I could even stall a mordekaiser ult by fearing and buffering ult stun to run away with enough health for my top lane to finish the morde. Now you just melt regardless against an opponent who massively outlevels you.

In my last game as red kayn the only way I stayed even with bot lane in levels was by afk power farming jungle and grabbing empty side lanes while leaving all the teamfighting to the rest of my team.

This current season for jungle is atrocious if you're not some CC tank or super strong early game aggressive jungler like Rek'sai/Lee Sin because you quickly get outleveled by all solo lanes, get your camps invaded by solo lanes 24/7 without being able to do anything about it, and since you're outleveled quickly you do no damage unless you're a strong early game champ.

This is by far one of the worst jungle metas, and they've only made the snowball against the losing jungler even worse and impossible to recover from unless one of your solo lanes snowballs even harder.

The moment an enemy jungle starts falling behind, you can start taking all their camps and there is absolutely no way for them to catch up in levels, making them completely unable to team fight because being 2 levels behind means you die in less than 2 seconds in a teamfight and the enemy team will just get fed off focusing you as the weakest link.

Voluug13Nov 24, 20192 votes

Ganks on toplane? On this dragon-ruled economy?

Not happening pal.

The23rdGamerNov 24, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gcMhLtz6,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-11-23T17:11:43.911+0000)

I mean, not like you can just take D Shield and second wind, build a defensive item, and freeze, forcing them to over-extend and therefore get fucked by ganks.

Not like having a ranged top essentially screws over a team as they lose a potentially front-liner.

Now, i won't say it's fun, but getting counter picked is never fun. The fact that there are ways to mitigate ranged advantages and clear downsides to playing ranged tops makes it balanced though.

This. Exactly this.

Crescent DuskNov 23, 20195 votes

{quoted}

does this count? (it doesn't, this change was worthless)

Over the games I've played in season 10 it legitimately feels exactly the same as before and they've changed NOTHING about melee vs ranged lanes. If anything creep block got WORSE.

Before I go off on a rant I'll leave things short and concise? Where are our melee vs ranged changes? They were promised and they're not here :/

P.S: I especially feel for top laners who have no now deal with bs like Conqueror Ryze, Phase Rush Kennen+Quinn, PtA Vayne+Trist etc.

Tristana and Lucian are being taken to melee lane too. Marksmen have been overbuffed and their early game is not weak enough to keep them in bot lane anymore.

Sir SaltarinNov 24, 20191 votes

I don't even find data of Lucian and Tristana Toplane

Where have you seen it ?

ŚhunpoNov 25, 20191 votes

Tristana top became a trend following that one LCS match. Lucian top has always been a thing.

Also, Tristana mid needs to be gutted, it's just disgusting.

Sir SaltarinNov 25, 20191 votes

Lucian Top has been a thing as a counter pick to Ganplank since S6 when Cabochard played it on EU LCS regular split against Steve

I remember watching that game live.

It has always been a marginal pick trash outside pro play on strict counter pick matchups.

If you get to complain about that I can complain about Heimerding and Yasuo bot. But it's not a good anallogy, since those two are actually played.

ŚhunpoNov 25, 20191 votes

Go for it tbh, Yas and Heim bot lane are gross, same to Shaco supp which is now meta.

LightswornLanceNov 23, 20194 votes

At least conqueror Ryze doesnt completely invalidate your champion pick the same way he does with phase rush. There is literally nothing an Aatrox or any other champion that relies on slows can do to a phase rush Ryze.

ŚhunpoNov 23, 20195 votes

Conqueror Ryze is still absurd though...then again Ryze in general is due for a nerf or another rework :/

SillaeNov 24, 20192 votes

{quoted}

At least conqueror Ryze doesnt completely invalidate your champion pick the same way he does with phase rush. There is literally nothing an Aatrox or any other champion that relies on slows can do to a phase rush Ryze.

Aatrox has hard cc and mobility

dont get me wrong ryze is stupid strong atm but like Aatrox doesn't just rely on slows

LightswornLanceNov 24, 20193 votes

QEWQ effectively nullifies anything aatroxs all in could ever try to do to ryze. With his movement speed buffs + slow resistance even if you somehow hit the intitial Q + W he just walks out. And aatrox relies on his W to hit his full combo. This isnt the days where he could dash twice to guarantee two q hits.

Yordle GunnerNov 23, 20193 votes

Tell you what, first you guys get mage bullies out of bot lane. But since no one cared about our plight, we will all enjoy this beautiful lane diversity together!

MordepoolNov 23, 20193 votes

No one cared about marksmen's plight because Riot games pandered too ranged stat checks hand and foot for almost 3 years. Mages barely exist botlane, please cry more about nothing.

KVbqbFsC8eNov 23, 20193 votes

I wonder how many people complaining about ranged top laners actually laned against them back when they would zone you not just from CS, but XP as well. Its not as bad as it used to be.

mark6028Nov 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I wonder how many people complaining about ranged top laners actually laned against them back when they would zone you not just from CS, but XP as well. Its not as bad as it used to be.

Except with the small small difference being that masteries/runes weren't that broken for ranged champions and something that seems even less important to you BRUISERS ACTUALLY SCALED.

Whil ranged be it mage or adc items get more and more cost efficiency, better stats and less cost to it, bruisers also lost shojin, trinity/sterak as their lategame crutch for NO REASON. It literally got removed just because. Oh wait we were supposed to get actual SoS AND ATMAS but we never got that and kept that nerf.

On top of that tiamat massively nerfed for no reason which is STILL A CRUTCH on non juggernaut melees except riven and renekton, guinsoos taken away, blade of the ruined king taken away, tank items taken away. Direct massive nerfs to most melee bruiser always hitting their scaling: see jax and camille for instance.

Yeah if we ignore all this it used to be "worse" lmao.

MordepoolNov 23, 20192 votes

Nothing is being done. Those were 100% hollow promises.

ToriToriNov 23, 20192 votes

Ranged champions will ALWAYS be better than melee ones, and i promisse you that it will stay like that till this game dies. and when talking about melee champs, bruisers are probably what most people are thinking of. Does anyone think that riot cares about them? if you think that they dont, you are wrong. they care about making them worse and worse with every season and patch. Removing zz rot and shojin, 2 bruiser items when they are already the worst proves it. play ranged champs or just stop playing at this point.

and also, keep fighting hashinshin. keep it up if noone else wants to, i already gave up.

EATARINov 24, 20192 votes

If ranged champions were always better, than why would anyone play a melee champion? The reason why is because melee champions are rewarded more for trades. While ranged champions rely on poke damage for almost the entirety of laning, melee champs have much better damage whenever they do get in. Ranged champions have to play perfectly, but when they do, there’s not much a melee champion can do.

Hi im 12Nov 23, 20191 votes

well once the conq gets nerfed for mages I think we'll actually be fine, klepto being removed is big for top lane, you can actually play tanks into ranged shit now.

invisiblecat1Nov 24, 20191 votes

Coming Soon Melee vs ranged lanes Primarily we want to make sure that we have mechanics to safeguard from ranged champions taking over top lane, which is the primary place where we get melee 1v1 matchups Current iterations have some additional melee only power added to Doran’s Shield

Taken from surrender at 20 They essentially said they've taken notice of the issue, and hope to fix it SOON Right now, shield changes are just a bandaid fix to make it slightly less cancerous