Jax and Nasus are pretty good example of late game champions

Visigoth·Sep 26, 2015·3 votes·807 views

I'm not naming any names, but I feel like other "late" game designated champions should at least feel more like Nasus and Jax. Level 1-5? Meh. Level 6? Alright, not horrible at least. First 2 items? Odang, they doing damage. Fully out of laning? "Careful not to 1v1 them!" 6 items level 18? Better send your entire team plus a sixth member, because you let them get 50 minutes in, you're fucked.

Seriously, I love the concept of me going 0/8 in laning because I main jungle and my laning is completely awful, but then I get Tri-Force and BotRK and suddenly 0/8 Jax is 2v1 their bot lane. It's so nice. You literally just accept your loss early game and it doesn't matter, because eventually your lat game arrives and you just get to destroy.

Totally worth having a very depressing 20 minutes.

24 Comments

J EpsteinSep 26, 20154 votes

is Vayne good example of late game champ?

edit: i know, vayne is the reason he made this post. that was the point of me making this comment.

ValyrianBladeSep 26, 20153 votes

No, she's probably the reason he's making this post.

I find that ever since that "level 2 nerf" (where Riot re-scaled all of the hp / AD / etc... per level stats and put more on the base level and made the difference gained from 1 to 2 smaller so the 'get level 2 and all in' strategy wouldn't be as strong) Vayne has had WAY too strong of an early game for how powerful her late game is.

Basically, in making these changes, Riot didn't change the base stats on ANY skillshots / abilities. So while they thought they scaled everything evenly, they really didn't. Effectively, Cait's Q is doing less damage to Vayne due to the change, and hence she doesn't counter Vayne as much as she used to. Other examples apply as well. I think there are definitely other reasons too (the repetitive nerfing of every adc that gets strong, instead of buffing the weaker ones, was bound to make all of the hyper-carries super strong, and what do we see all the time? Vayne, Jinx, Tristana (or Corki for his poke and safe laning).

Vayne can honestly match most ADCs by level 3. As a late game champ, that isn't cool. A champion whose main strength is split pushing and dueling (as opposed to sieging and teamfighting) should NOT have over a 50% win rate in solo queue where the predominant strategy is to group mid and push. A balanced Vayne should have around a 48-49% win rate (unless the game changes to more of a split-push style) (as opposed to Jinx, who excels in what the meta is, and should have a ~51% win rate, all else considered equal).

Honestly, I think Nasus, Kog'maw, and Jax are the only 3 champions that really fit the role of 'late game powerhouse with weak early game' well at all. Any other late game hypercarry has way too strong or safe of an early game to really deserve hypercarry status. Perhaps I'm missing a few (feel free to name who you're thinking of, I probably just don't view them as a hypercarry and rather just as a strong late gamer, e.g. Karthus).

TheI3igDaddySep 26, 20151 votes

{quoted} Honestly, I think Nasus, Kog'maw, and Jax are the only 3 champions that really fit the role of 'late game powerhouse with weak early game' well at all. Any other late game hypercarry has way too strong or safe of an early game to really deserve hypercarry status. Perhaps I'm missing a few (feel free to name who you're thinking of, I probably just don't view them as a hypercarry and rather just as a strong late gamer, e.g. Karthus).

Karthus is 100% a hypercarry for how piss-poor his early game is. Karthus CAN cheese enemies pretty early on, but it costs a ton of mana and his lane opponent has to have an IQ of 50 or lower.

Lategame at full build, if you position your corpse in the right spot, Karthus can win a teamfight by himself.

ValyrianBladeSep 26, 20151 votes

Fair enough, then he's another great example of someone with a weak early game and strong late game. I mostly just don't see him all that often, and when I do he typically doesn't do much. Perhaps just good luck on my part? As an ADC main I typically get enough of a lead to kill him before he can position and more often than not his team is fleeing so he's out of range pretty quickly (aside from his ult, which is countered with heal + lifesteal). I do know however that he has extremely high damage output late game if you don't manage to shut him down or take him out of fights quickly (and then get away from his corpse).

SasogwaSep 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Fair enough, then he's another great example of someone with a weak early game and strong late game. I mostly just don't see him all that often, and when I do he typically doesn't do much. Perhaps just good luck on my part? As an ADC main I typically get enough of a lead to kill him before he can position and more often than not his team is fleeing so he's out of range pretty quickly (aside from his ult, which is countered with heal + lifesteal). I do know however that he has extremely high damage output late game if you don't manage to shut him down or take him out of fights quickly (and then get away from his corpse).

Koggy? I find Twitch to be a good example for a lategame champion as well.

ValyrianBladeSep 26, 20151 votes

For me, another example of strong late but not a hyper carry. With how fed the twitch was in this game, a hyper-carry could have carried: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1945796964/216460380?tab=overview

(instead I hecarim ulted in 2v4 [with volibear] at Baron and killed Pantheon and Twitch (or rather, perhaps they killed themselves on my thornmail) for my team to clean up and push for the win on the 70 second ace - pretty depressing that they chose to try to Baron while voli and I pinged and typed "END" in chat for 30 seconds straight before they finally went to win the game though, with only about 1 second to spare [two had spawned and were coming to attack when they killed the nexus]). The sivir and thresh were just BAD that game (although Thresh at least got Oracles to let me see Twitch in that last fight :P).

I understand that one example doesn't disprove something, but Twitch's only escape is his ambush, which is countered by pinks/oracles. Unlike Vayne for example who has lots of self peel and a stealth on top of that. Or kog'maw who just hits from so far out of range it doesn't matter that he's immobile. Twitch also doesn't have true damage. He definitely scales very well, but I don't see him as a hyper carry. I never get in to a game against Twitch and think "okay, I need to end this before 40min or it's going to be painful."

TheI3igDaddySep 26, 20151 votes

He's not picked often because he's high risk, high reward. Way back when, when mid was a farmfest with two AP mages, Karth dominated because that's exactly what type of lane he wants. Assassins ruin him because Exhaust has a lengthy cooldown and he has no mobility at all.

Karthus isn't easy to master; you can pick him up and do fairly well (because let's face it, you're the only champ in the game that's REQUIRED to intentionally feed, at least sometimes), but most need practice with him.

I'm no Karthus main; I usually play tanky, frontline champs. It's still fun though to play him mid because I'm still on the frontline.

J EpsteinSep 26, 20151 votes

yep, i was being sarcastic. thanks for agreeing with me. you have my up-votes.

ValyrianBladeSep 26, 20151 votes

Ah haha.... I am excellent at sarcasm in real life. In electronic communications, not so much. I need the tone or body-language to see it.

NemeBroSep 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Poppy

BluePolarizerSep 26, 20151 votes

Nasus can't 1v1 anyone though. Vayne or Kalista can kill him and take zero damage.

ValyrianBladeSep 26, 20151 votes

I literally played Nasus against a Vayne top, I hadn't played Nasus at all for months before that (and never play top). She couldn't kill me 1v1 if her life depended on it. Eventually I got a gank (and my jungler took the kill, then another [at 6min and 9min]). After that I killed her 1v1 in lane twice, then proceeded to get in to 1v2s and 1v3s and winning them (there was 1 1v3 where I killed 2 then died though).

I mean, with wither, ghost, and frozen heart, Nasus can really wreck most ADCs. Kalista could probably kite him for days, but Vayne is out of luck once condemn is gone.

Not sure if you can see since it was only Normals: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1953735803/216460380?tab=overview notice total gold was relatively even throughout the first 25min, where they led at 25min and at that point we took the lead and went on to win pretty directly.

BluePolarizerSep 26, 20151 votes

he must have made mistakes or fell too far behind. His personal gold was far behind yours.

BoulderoxSep 26, 20151 votes

Quinn nasus, that is a lovely q you have there, it would be a shame if you couldn't stack it.

windwolf777Sep 26, 20151 votes

I thought that his aa damage was stopped but Q stack damage went through. Is that still right? Or were you saying at the early game he has no stacks and it will stay that way?

BoulderoxSep 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I thought that his aa damage was stopped but Q stack damage went through. Is that still right? Or were you saying at the early game he has no stacks and it will stay that way?

I think it blocks all, because he couldn't outduel me as quinn when I qd him

windwolf777Sep 27, 20151 votes

Just curious either what minute was it or if you know how many stacks did he have?

BoulderoxSep 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Just curious either what minute was it or if you know how many stacks did he have?

If I recall, he had 81 stacks by 10 minutes, and the last I fought him he had 214 stacks around 30 ish minutes but as I said quinn blind blocks his farming.

SasogwaSep 26, 20151 votes

Except if they get kited , which doesn't even require huge skill, and they feel useless despite being full build. And that, that is sad. Especially since tankiness lategame is absolute crap compared to damage so they get melted in a few seconds.

FalconPawwwwnchSep 26, 20151 votes

What is Nasus gonna do late game against an adc with QSS lol

He gets kited and dies

ValyrianBladeSep 26, 20151 votes

Well if all else fails he can still tele to the enemy base and ignore everything and 2-3 shot turrets once he's at 40 minutes with like 600-800 stacks (or more if you're really good). A death for