Riot Tahm Kench Feels Frustrating Because He Is Too Strong

Stephenizgod··5 votes·1,641 views

This is a long post, skip to the end if you want a summary.

I know that there are a lot of post about him right now but they all seem to bash Riot and I don't like doing that (except when Malz was nerfed but not Yas or Tahm, but i got over it haha). Anyways there was a post by ZenontheStoic a bit ago, if you haven't read it it is on Surrender@20, discussing what Riot felt made Tahm frustrating to play against. They stated that Tahm only "feels" oppressive and that while that feeling is valid it is not accurate. I wanted to talk about that because there are a few instances where a champion feels op when they are not really, I am only going to talk about one.

Garen was a hot topic for awhile, he was my main before the rework and no one thought he was op, in fact ive had people on my team dodge because i took him into ranked. I have had Junglers type in all chat "Enjoy free win top, im not ganking noob Garen" only for me to carry all my teammates at the end of the game. Then the rework, not many people know this but Garen's damage, silence, MS boost, and tankiness were all NERFED for the Villain mechanic. All the rework did was make his Ult more likely to kill someone, but that was all that was needed for the community to claim he was op. The issue is Garen was frustrating to play against because he was not a popular choice so no one really knew how to fight him, thus he appeared op when really they just hadn't figured him out. Im probably going to get downvoted just for saying this too, thats how much the community hated Garen. So why bring this up? Well Garen is a true example of "Frustrating but not op".

Tahm Kench is both frustrating and op, he is frustrating BECAUSE he is op... His damage is at Burst Mage/Assassin levels, his Tankiness is at Pure Tank levels, his CC is at Tank/Support levels. He is another example of this games poor balance of 'jack of all trades' champions. BUT Zenon was right you can't just look at his abilities and scream and whine, you need to see how they work in game. Well actually he performs about as good as his abilities imply, he does a ton of damage, is impossible to kill, and will CC someone forever. Zenon mentioned about how his damage is fine due to his low stickiness, this is true by himself Tahm has low stickiness, but that is only if he refuses to use abilities for whatever reason.

His Passive is surprisingly easy to stack mainly due to the fact stacks take 7 whole seconds to start to decay!! He has 2 ranged abilities which each apply a stack and one of them applies a slow. So its not a fair argument to say he needs to stack them first, its not that hard specially since he can walk right up to you, ignoring your damage.
Summary: His passive is not that hard to stack

His Q has 800 range, which is barely smaller than Blitz Grab, and 70% slow at max rank that lasts for 2 seconds. It also STARTS with a 6 second cool down which is lowered to 3.6 seconds with 40% CDR, something incredibly easy for him to obtain. If you are successful in stacking his passive the ability will stun you for 1.5 seconds. So he has a 2 sec 70% slow and 1.5 sec stun with max stacks on a roughly 4 second CD it would be easier to dodge if it wasn't incredibly fast with an enormous hitbox.
Summary: This ability invalidates the "low stickiness" argument

His W is one of the most BS abilities in the game. He can eat a minion and spit it out dealing damage and applying his passive to everything hit in an AoE. Alternatively he can eat an Ally, removing any and all CC, making them Untargetable. If an enemy champion has max stacks of his passive he can eat them instead, suppressing them, can move a short distance, then spit them out stunning them for 0.25 seconds, and dealing 32% of their max life... This ability is a 'can-do-it-all' kind of ability, need to poke? Shoot a minion, need to save and ally? eat them, enemy has max stacks? eat them and instantly deal a third of their health and spit them out in front of your whole team. It is however on a 10 second CD, so you need to choose carefully which one you choose, unless you have 40% CDR which puts it on a 6 sec CD.
Summary: This is the ability everyone wants nerfed, it doesn't need to deal that much damage even as a Solo laner.

His E is a poorly tuned ability that is currently being nerfed, which is great. Not much to say i think Riot is doing the right thing with this ability.

His Ult is fine but the Passive bonus damage is stupid. All his abilities and AA's do a bonus 20 + 8% of his Bonus Health. This TANK Champion is being rewarded, for free, by building his main stat which is Health. There is a similar BS ability to this that coincidentally is also complained about, Riven's E which gives her a dash and a shield that scales 1:1 with her AD. These two abilities reward them for building what they are suppose to be building but outside of the intended purpose. Meaning Riven builds only AD, no tank, and is rewarded with a massive shield which comes with mobility, the strongest stat in the game. Tahm's builds only tank, no damage, and is rewarded with a shit ton of free damage. Damage and Tank should NEVER be combined without having to pay for it in other areas, Riven should need to decide between a good shield or more damage, Tahm should need to decide between more damage or Tank.
Summary: His ult removes the Cons of building full tank

Zenon is right, you can't look at him in a Vacuum, so lets look at him in game.

Tahm brings Tank, CC, and Damage to a team. His Tank is enough where you can't focus him in a teamfight because its wasted, his CC is enough to negate Escape and Chase, and his Damage is enough where you cannot ignore him. So what do you do? If you focus him you waste CD's and their other carries are going to pick you off. If you ignore him he is going to kill one of your carries with his insane damage, his low stickiness doesn't matter in a teamfight when all he needs to do his land 1 Q or run into your team. Focus one of his carries? He can negate all CC and take them out of your range, all your abilities and focus made useless. I guess the best thing to do is spread your focus to several carries so he can't save them all but their focus is on 1 person generally and they will win that fight. Basically you need to waste a lot of resources to stop the enemy Support Tahm, because he is a threat by himself. This is ok when he is a Top or Jungle because he replaces that spot on the team but when he is Support he keeps all his support duties while also adding on another source of crazy damage as well as being a fat tank. As a Support Tahm brings too much to a fight compared to similar Tank Supports who bring only a fraction of what he brings because they actually need to make a meaningful choice in what they should be building. If Alistar or Taric want to deal damage they need to build it but they sacrifice a lot of their tank to do so. Malphite, Rammus, and Galio gain damage by building defensively but its pretty low scaling and requires a lot of that resistance to do increased damage so if that requirement is not meant they don't do increased damage, Tahm just does increased damage.

Tahm Kench is overloaded, over-tuned, overpowered, whatever you want to call it and he breaks the rules of his role that all other champions in his role need to follow and yet he goes unpunished.

20 Comments

Veilix2 votes

I have YET to fight against a Tahm Kench that was doing badly. I think that all his skills aside from ult, are designed to keep you good, even if youre really bad with him. You don't even need to build properly (ADC TahmKench seen recently) and you still hit like a train and regen most dmg taken.

This being said, iv decided to place tahm kench along the lines of OP with Katarina. I hope he gets his skills dmg reduced.

Stephenizgod1 votes

All he needs is a reduce in damage, even as a Top laner his damage is incredibly high for only building Tank items.

Jbels1 votes

Breaking the rules of his role? Riot designed him to be a top laner. It's just happy coincidence that he happens to function well in bot lane

Stephenizgod1 votes

His role is Tank, which is what i was talking about he breaks the rules of Tanks where you have lower damage but high resistances and CC. Besides his position is normally Support so my point stands either way, the main issue is that he is balanced, albeit poorly, as a Top laner but he is playing Support where he is heavily unbalanced, even more than his Top lane.

Jbels1 votes

{quoted}

His role is Tank, which is what i was talking about he breaks the rules of Tanks where you have lower damage but high resistances and CC. Besides his position is normally Support so my point stands either way, the main issue is that he is balanced, albeit poorly, as a Top laner but he is playing Support where he is heavily unbalanced, even more than his Top lane.

Low damage but high resistances? You do realize that he does just as much damage as Zac or Sej or Nautilus, right? If not a tiny bit more? "oh but 30% max health damage" If you do the math on it, it's not really that much. and a smart Tahm isn't looking for people to burst down, he's saving his W for saving the carry from lethal damage. Getting ON to an adc or mage is pretty damn hard to do when they can see your fat ass waddling towards you from a mile away

Stephenizgod1 votes

Zac deals 8% max HP i believe, needs to build AP to do a lot of damage, and there is more counterplay to him specially since he has such a weak early game.

Sej does a olot of damage right now but its not as bad as Tahm, plus he is tankier then her and deals more damage, she is more for her Hard CC and engage.

Naut deal damage? Maybe if you build Ap Naut? Enjoy dying a bunch... Besides other than his Ult his damage is situational as in it requires him to hit you with all 3 waves of his E which is hard. His shield is only strong by building Hp so you pay for Damage with Tankiness, so i think its pretty fair...

I agree, save your carry is the best course of action when they are in danger, but what if they arn't? I mean a smart Tahm will save an ally if need be but whats the point in saving it when its on a 6-7 second CD and the enemy is not engaging or maybe only one or two make it to the back line but your carry is not in danger, do you just not use your W? Answer: You remove 32% of their Hp instantly... BTW that is now more than Malz W which does 30% and requires them to stand still for 5 whole seconds and his main job is to kill people, not save them i mean that is the only use for that ability whereas Tahm's has several uses as you stated.

Jbels1 votes

{quoted}

Zac deals 8% max HP i believe, needs to build AP to do a lot of damage, and there is more counterplay to him specially since he has such a weak early game.

Sej does a olot of damage right now but its not as bad as Tahm, plus he is tankier then her and deals more damage, she is more for her Hard CC and engage.

Naut deal damage? Maybe if you build Ap Naut? Enjoy dying a bunch... Besides other than his Ult his damage is situational as in it requires him to hit you with all 3 waves of his E which is hard. His shield is only strong by building Hp so you pay for Damage with Tankiness, so i think its pretty fair...

I agree, save your carry is the best course of action when they are in danger, but what if they arn't? I mean a smart Tahm will save an ally if need be but whats the point in saving it when its on a 6-7 second CD and the enemy is not engaging or maybe only one or two make it to the back line but your carry is not in danger, do you just not use your W? Answer: You remove 32% of their Hp instantly... BTW that is now more than Malz W which does 30% and requires them to stand still for 5 whole seconds and his main job is to kill people, not save them i mean that is the only use for that ability whereas Tahm's has several uses as you stated.

Tahm does NOT do more damage than Malzahar by a damn long shot. And I've done the math on Sej versus Tahm, as have others. Their damage is similar, while Sejauni retains a hard engage, a giant AOE CC and percent max health damage of her own. Zac gets to spam his max health damage too when he's ulting and jumping on people's faces (Tahm doesn't even HAVE an ult for the majority of the game)

And if you seriously think Naut's damage is negligible, that's sad.

Stephenizgod1 votes

I never said he did, go back and re-read what i said.

I have also done the Math and Tahm Kench does an incredible amount of burst damage, Sej's damage is DoT and is reliant on her staying near the target for the full duration and caps out at around 12% Max Hp over 4 seconds, add in the 6% on her basic attack and thats still only 18% to his 32%. Its on a 7 sec CD compared to his 10 so i guess eventually she would more damage assuming you wanted to play a 3 hr game to find out. Still, im getting tired of repeating myself here, Sej does a lot of damage too and i think it needs to be toned down a bit more once it hits olate game she is damn near impossible to kill.

Naut's damage isn't negligible but to compare him to Zac, Sej, and Tahm is ridiculous for he is way outclassed.

Penns1 votes

Playing Tahm top feels kind of unfair, but I still think he isnt as good as Mundo or some other tanks. Sometimes when your enemies pick the right champs or play right, you feel like youre totally useless as Tahmm. Also lets not act like getting damage for building defensive stats is something new in League lol.

Stephenizgod1 votes

My issue is that Mundo and other tanks that focus on damage feel useless if your team has not a lot of damage or if you are behind. Tahm can at least act like a second support if behind and retains his insane damage regardless of how ahead or behind he is, 32% max hp is 32% max hp whether you are 0/10 or 10/0.

Yes that is true butolike i said its more situational then Tahm's is, Malphite can build full Armor if he wants but if their team has a lot of MR its useless, Tahm's is almost never useless and is strong regardless of their team comp as Health is on most common Tank items and is useful against both forms of damage as well as True Damage.

Penns1 votes

Well 25% current hp is 25% current hp whether you are 0/10 or 10/0 as well.

Tahm might have good utility with his W, but he isnt as unkitable as Mundo, his CC is not that good in teamfights and he has no mobility.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Tahm has great teamfight CC, more than Mundo does. He has a solow which can be a stun and a suppress with a stun

Penns1 votes

But the point of CC, at least most of the time, is to lock someone down. And, well, you cant lock someone down when Tahm makes him untargetable. Tahm also makes himself useless for the duration + he used his only way to peel

Stephenizgod1 votes

But Tahm Kench making them untargetable IS locking them down why would you want to CC an enemy Tahm ate? They are suppressed already so that would be a waste of CC, thats like if you stunned a target that Warwick or Malz had suppressed, they are already standing still and cant use abilities. Plus he deals a third of their life and can move them away from their team, so he effectively has a small Skarner ult and turns it into a 4v5. The same can be said about any CC, if you use it offensively it can't be used to peel.

Penns1 votes

"Locking someone down" also means to kill someone while CCd and you cant kill someone when Tahm makes him untargetable. And Tahms W is the only spell that does something impactful in a direct 5v5 fight that already started.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Then use CC on them after he spits them out? Him eating an enemy is in not really bad, they are suppressed and you can use that CC on someone else turning it into a 3v5, then you kill whoever he ate because they just took a crap ton of damage. Im not really seeing how its a negative for him to eat an enemy.

That isn't true his Q can slow/stun, his E can tank abilities or turrets, and his Ult can be used to flank or catch someone/cut them off.

Penns1 votes

If anything, Tahm W makes the fight a 4v4 for its duration because he cant do anything other than run around with no move speed either. Every spell in the game does something, that doesnt mean they have a high impact in fights.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Nah its a 5v4, he still does damage but they cannot.

True but his does have high impacts in the game, they stun and tank and cover large distances

Penns1 votes

Im pretty sure he cant cast spells or auto attack while eating an enemy and he only does damage when spitting them out.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Yea but he does do damage, they can't

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