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Remind me the counter to Vayne in late game?

Ahristocats··22 votes·9,466 views

https://i.gyazo.com/af8ad8c24f8dbebfc89ac937e52fbf26.png

oh i know she isn't op, but this design of "don't let her go in late game" a bit bs She has 60% win rate past 40 min. 100% of her damage is unavoidable

i had 110 mr and 110 armor, i killed in 2 hits jhin, and in 4 hits graves. They tried to cc me but i had a team and item 3139 , i had stealth+E+ Q to survive , at one point alistar almost killed me and i got back 20% of my hp with lifesteal+red potion

so here are 2 situations with this design: -your team destroyed vayne's team in early game and you will definitly win -you went into late game, and you can surrender because you won't win against %hp true damage+1000 damage crit+all of that is unavoidable

No wonder this champion was never balanced since its release. She needs counterplay and then balance changes to balance her around those counterplays

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi1AiBtGbRg&feature=youtu.be

54 Comments

DJMason888 votes

Syndra

doublelift fg6 votes

Vayne should not be able to crit on her Q

a champion supposed to kill tanks shouldn't be able to build crit Kog doesn't kill squishies in 1 hit because he doesn't build crit, he's a heatlhy tank buster

@op if you want a counter to vayne once riot will buff crit adc it's simple 10 bans

Big Lincoln1 votes

how do you stop her from building crit now tho

doublelift fg2 votes

make her Q bonus AS on next 3 attacks instead of %bonus damage that way she has more reasons to buy item 3153 item 3124 than crit and even if she builds crit she won't burst people with %bonus damage

but then why would you pick vayne over kog? vayne is a mistake and has no way to be fixed

Big Lincoln1 votes

ya they need to figure out what she's supposed to be. especially because she stole kog's tank-killer niche right out from under him

if she's supposed to be an assassin then her DPS needs to get shafted

PermabannedGaren3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gKAsftrA,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-04T17:34:24.616+0000)

ya they need to figure out what she's supposed to be. especially because she stole kog's tank-killer niche right out from under him

if she's supposed to be an assassin then her DPS needs to get shafted

She's the late game target agnostic duelist ADC, able to fuck with any other ADC 1v1 and with most other champions for that matter. She has a great deal of outplay ability and single target DPS, but no AOE damage, waveclear, and effectively the least range of her class.

I don't know why people have this idea that a champion can only be good at killing squishies or tanks, and never both. Almost every melee carry/skirmisher is able to do both very well. Vayne is sort of like a skirmisher ADC.

Qzply763 votes

10 Bans, 50 bans 100 bans, fuck it man Let's just not even discuss it man

Backup4now1 votes

a champion supposed to kill tanks shouldn't be able to build crit

I'm pretty sure crit has been considered a tankbuster stat at all points before lord dominik's. It's a dps multiplier, which combined with old last whisper was your best choice for shredding a tank. Not building crit to shred tanks is a much more recent development.

PermabannedGaren2 votes

[{quoted}](name=doublelift fg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gKAsftrA,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-03-04T16:07:14.449+0000)

Vayne should not be able to crit on her Q

a champion supposed to kill tanks shouldn't be able to build crit Kog doesn't kill squishies in 1 hit because he doesn't build crit, he's a heatlhy tank buster

@op if you want a counter to vayne once riot will buff crit adc it's simple 10 bans

Champions that build crit tend to be the best tank busters in the game though. Which is to say, ADCs as a class are generally the best tank busters in the game in practical terms (technically speaking Yi kills tanks faster than any of them but he can't do it as safely).

If an ADC can't kill a tank, it isn't an ADC. Should they all not be able to build crit?

Vayne also frankly isn't a "tank buster". Her silver bolts act similarly to the bonus armour pen on Yasuo's ultimate, which is to say it frees up an item slot that would normally go to a lord dominik's regards. She can afford to build a defense or hybrid item without cutting into her damage as much as another ADC might.

Hayes5 votes

nasus is the closest thing you have to a tank and even he dosen't have thornmail.

in this situation, Lysandra, Nasus, and Alistar should be CCing her constantly.

Ahristocats3 votes

Alistar tried to cc me yes, and it lasted 1 sec then lissandra ultied i pressed QSS+stealth and alistar couldn't stun me with his E

Nasus WAS a tank, juggernauts bring as much tankiness as natural tanks but trade utility and engage for damage i'm going to remind you that nasus ulti gives 130 armor/mr or i don't remember the number

then you forget a full build alistar as a tank on purpose lol

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

The OP was the Vayne (and Zac was on their team).

GigglesO5 votes

That was technically 3 hits on jhin, you got the silver bullet proc.

Ahristocats2 votes

i was talking about full build

in this video i had 2 items

GigglesO1 votes

That damage is still silly.

Dasdi964 votes

This is true, with the s7 vision changes vayne has 0 counterplay, espicially in the late game. Tankiness ceises to exist against vayne. She turns the game imto "kill or be killed."

Ahristocats1 votes

{quoted}

"kill or be killed."

precisely, except that it's hard to kill vayne in late game, at least harder than how she kills you with everything listed above

i don't know how riot can fixe this issue

GigglesO1 votes

Even vayne ghosts (Mordekaiser ) basically allow you to win the game 1v4. Your shield will not fall low with her ghost... and it can kill anyone.

ArnoldSchwarzens3 votes

I can see where you are coming from but a lot of these things, like the silver bolts and her ultimate stealth are things that hardly something can be done about. If you would remove it and replace it by something else, Vayne wouldn't be Vayne anymore, it's part of her identity. If you would nerf it, she would quickly get a negative win rate because as you said, she isn't exactly overpowered.

You can still make the argument that something that is so unfun to play against for a lot of people shouldn't be allowed into the game but that would be just a dick move against all Vayne players.

Ahristocats2 votes

i think she needs a mini-rework if not a grand rework Riot needs to give counterplay to her kit while giving her better tools to survive in early game

also: vayne wouldn't be vayne anymore? that's actually a second problem, i don't know what vayne is

is she a tank shreder? she kills people faster than zed is she an anti-assassin? maybe is she a duelist? this one probably fits her

Aptest2 votes

the core problem is that she is an assassin / duelist whilst being something in addition to those functions.

both of these "tags" can't have anything else attached to them, otherwise OP.

ArnoldSchwarzens1 votes

I see her as the archetype "anti-melee" carry. She struggles against everyone with a lot of range but anyone who has less range than her is basically at a loss fighting her. She is the answer to assassins, tanks, bruisers etc. but she has a hard time against most other marksmen and mages. At least from what I can gather.

Never understood why people always feel so strongly about her, or about Yasuo or Lee while we're on the topic. Sure, everyone of them had their time when they're OP but people are much more vocal about them than let's say, Varus who's also pretty strong atm. They're not that annoying and can all be dealt with. IMO.

Ahristocats2 votes

that would be a great archetype, but she gains 90 ms with ult and she moves at 500 ms in late game so if you're ranged she's still going to catch you

GigglesO1 votes

That is because people don't like fighting them. Honestly everyone complains about some champs being op... like morde.... but you can kite morde... I can't cc a vayne to death. This is partially because of itemization, partially because of stealth, self peel, ranged, and nuke level damage without any real build up.

deoje2992 votes

She cant do damage if shes dead.

hhaavviikk2 votes

orac- pink wa- surrender

Leonerdo2 votes

There's at least one counter. It's not perfect, but it'll at least put some pressure on the Vayne: Bring more AoE damage and have quicker teamfights. Vayne can only hurt one guy at a time, so if it's a slow teamfight where she has time to kill one target at a time, then yes she is going to destroy you. If your carries are AoE though (with maybe a Zyra/Brand support too) and you kill three members of Vayne's team at once while she only kills your tank, then it's pretty easy to take her once you have the numbers advantage. Also, all that AoE is going to be hard for her to avoid, regardless of stealth.

The Whamboozler2 votes

The counter to Vayne is not letting her get to late game, dude.

Even if she does, she can still be blown up REAL quick with one stun and some decent burst. I dislike the champ personally. I dislike most of the people who play her. I dislike the mechanic of % health true damage and think it's bad game design. But Vayne is NOT OP and being upset at a character with a distinct strength (her lategame carry potential) and obvious weaknesses (her piss-poor early game, poor range and the general flaws of the marksman role overall) is asking Riot to make every champ into a samey blob without any really defined strengths or weaknesses. You know, like a lot of the overloaded monsters we've gotten who all have to have a shield, a dash, a steroid, an AA reset, % damage and so on.

MORE champions should be like Vayne... not less. She has clear strengths and weaknesses. It's your fault if you let her become a beast and then lost to her. We need more hypercarries with lousy early games.... Squishy, immobile burst mages that die if you close on them.. or durable disruption tanks that can't put out any real hurt but can lock you down. These things are all GOOD for the game.

DaNinad1 votes

Jhin did better than you....

Mig892 votes

You cannot say someone did beter than him on the other team when he won. The argument he is making is he probably sucked all game but it doesnt matter when vayne gets her items. She will proceed to shit on people. Id take going 1/30/1 every damn game if i win lol. thats all a game comes down to unless you think your stats matter. To me the only stat line that matters is the one that tells you if you won or not.

ChaoticPinecone2 votes

Yes you can. An individual can only do so much. Vayne's TEAM did better than Jhins team (with the win), but Vayne did not do better than Jhin. When your Mid is feeding and your Top is losing, there is only so much a fed Jungle + ADC can do.

And theres only so much you can do when you draft a very low scaling teamcomp. Vayne + Gangplank + Support AP Ezreal are strong lategame, especially agasint a low-burst/low-range team. The enemy drafted a very early/midgame comp.

Joxcab1 votes

Die before she can kill you so she can't be the one to kill you.

Ahristocats1 votes

took my 20 min to understand.... well played

RexSaur1 votes

You know, theres the whole 45 minutes before that part.

Vayne doesnt start the game with full build and she has a shitload of weaknesses to make up for her strenghts (no map impact early on due to weak laning phase + no pushing power at all).

You complain about vayne but say jhin is fine, please lol.

Ahristocats3 votes

{quoted}

You know, theres the whole 45 minutes before that part.

which is why i'm talking about design, not balance

{quoted}

You complain about vayne but say jhin is fine, please lol.

where did you read this? have you joined the rank of board manipulating other people?

RexSaur1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gKAsftrA,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-03-04T17:08:36.283+0000)

which is why i'm talking about design, not balance

where did you read this? have you join the rank of board manipulating other people?

You're complaining a late game champion is strong late game.

You want every champ to have the same power curve?

Ahristocats5 votes

i want a champion to have counterplay

and if you look i killed jhin in 2 sec with 2 items at 25 min

RexSaur1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gKAsftrA,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-04T17:18:39.521+0000)

i want a champion to have counterplay

and if you look i killed jhin in 2 sec with 2 items at 25 min

She already has counterplay, shes already bad against anything that has more range than her and CC.

Vayne cant play the game against shit like zyra jhin at all stages of the game, just because your darius gets shit on by vayne doesnt mean she doesnt have counterplay.

Ahristocats2 votes

{quoted}

Vayne cant play the game against shit like zyra jhin at all stages of the game, just because your darius gets shit on by vayne doesnt mean she doesnt have counterplay.

that's the same weakness than darius, the same thing you do with darius is having a TANk in your team to bring cc

and don't ever call that a counterplay this is so fucking retarded it tires me

doublelift fg1 votes

{quoted}

She already has counterplay Rexsaur

nothing to see here

Melledoneus1 votes

Here's the counter to Vayne: A sturdy, quick diver who can burst her down. Examples?

Shyvana XinZhao Camille Hecarim JarvanIVIrelia

You can also have people who ignore her peel like Olaf or just burst her whole team down like Riven.

Other than that, no amount of armor, HP, or shields is going to save you from that tank shredding, squishy-deleting, stealth-critting machine.

GigglesO2 votes

{quoted}

Here's the counter to Vayne: A sturdy, quick diver who can burst her down. Examples?

Shyvana XinZhao Camille Hecarim JarvanIVIrelia

No, maybe, maybe, ok, maybe, maybe

I mean your theory on these champs are nice, until she tumbles then knocks away.

You can also have people who ignore her peel like Olaf or just burst her whole team down like Riven.

But you can't ignore her stealth crit 3 shot.

Other than that, no amount of armor, HP, or shields is going to save you from that tank shredding, squishy-deleting, stealth-critting machine.

Golden Tager X1 votes

Pink wa............ oh right.

SaltyKracka1 votes

She's incredibly vulnerable to being locked down and bursted.

The enemy team had the lockdown alright, but they would need to dump half their kits on Vayne to burst properly.

Ahristocats1 votes

{quoted}

but they would need to dump half their kits on Vayne to burst properly.

which is why we shouldn't forget that vayne isn't alone

also QSS is all you need with a good positioning to avoid ccs, then if you have a frontline keeping busy the enemy backline nothing can happen to you

DaNinad1 votes

The full tank nasus almost outdamaged you....... how

NastyMcOutplay1 votes

she is very op

Calypsó1 votes

Gee...what is CC? I can tell you that most Vayne what I like to call, "Vayne spotting" will overextend and try to pull a Gosu montage. Done Deal

Yaskamasandwich1 votes

I've been trying to find the answer to that for years. Only two things that come to mind. As Leonerdo stated; bring heavy team comp AoE CC. Throws her off her game, and takes advantage of her single target damage while hurting her team. Secondly is pick a hyper carry that works well with said team comp. Of course there isn't a champion that cannot out duel Vayne late game, so make sure said hyper carry sticks with the team. Maybe, MAYBE, Nasus can out duel Vayne late game, but he's melee. Vayne's late game is countered mainly through champion select and skills used as said right picked champions. I just personally find the concept of Hyper Carries unhealthy in general and Vayne is the prime example.

MegaSpaceJX1 votes

Go Malzahar shit on her

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