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If Mordekaiser is made into a Bruiser without CC and better defensive capabilities he'll suck still

Kingsgrave··6 votes·825 views

Rework talked about here: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/5dmaUVNs-mordekaiser-54-changes

Morde's weakness was no mobility, no utility and no chasing or closing the gap ability and relatively low tankiness even with his shield.

He made up for it kinda sorta with mega waveclear and high damage. It sounds like his waveclear is getting reduced to okay to good instead of mega and his damage is getting reduced to okay, which is fine for a Fighter but terrible for Morde.** He needs to have CC to be useful as a Fighter and even as a Mage. This isn't 2010. Its 2015. **

These changes push him to a Jungle and Top role, but without CC he brings NOTHING to Top or Jungle that other AP Top Laner bruiser characters bring. Rumble has CC. Gragas has CC. Eve has CC. Elise has CC. Liss has CC. etc.,

He needs a Stun on his Q to reward him for getting that close to someone without a gap closer or high amounts of mobility and he needs a Slow on his E so its not just a "press this to damage people a little bit in a cone"

Even without CC his defensive steroid is heavily lacking, especially for someone without offensive or defensive Mobility or long ranged nukes or spells.

How to fix him:

Total or Bonus HP scaling for his Shield like Riot suggested instead of Damage dealt Shield only decays outside of combat like Riot suggested Higher CDs and lower overall burst damage like Riot suggested Q stun only on the Mace hit: .75 seconds that increases to 1.5 second if they are isolated W Armor/MR bonus increased to 40/50/60/70/80 from 10/15/20/25/30 W bonus applies to both him and ally but bonus is reduced by 50% on Allies E slow: 20/30/40/50/60% Slow for 1.5 seconds

It would also be nice if his Shield was no longer reduced in generation against Monsters so with that CC he could actually be a decent Jungler

Even better if they allow his Q to work on Towers

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gIAMbBTy,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-13T11:40:18.015+0000)

Well, from what RiotChun said here

I assume they would reduce ulti damage and would change a bit base or scalings (more base, less scalings?). Diana damage is not as good as Morde if she doesn't connect her Q, which is not an easy feat to accomplish, and Rumble has much less tankiness overall, so I don't see how this make my statement false.

Morde is decent to good on everything except mobility/CC Eliminate completely mobility/CC as weakness is too much, ther is not much you can argue here

Diana is mobile Rumble has higher ranges and far more utility than Morde has

Why would Morde getting CC make him OP? If anything it would actually make him useful.

1.5 second slow is barely anything. .75 second stun if they aren't isolated and 1.5 if they are is barely anything

His burst and poke and lane bullying isn't nearly as strong as someone like Renekton/Darius His dueling isn't nearly as strong as someone like Trundle/Shyvana/Irelia/Jax/Aatrox His CC would not be nearly as strong as someone like Rumble/Gragas His tankiness isn't nearly as high as someone like Mundo/Shyvana/Maokai/Nautilus His sustained damage isn't nearly as high as someone like Liss/Ori/Ryze His burst and anti-burst from dealing damage isnt nearly as high as someone like Kassadin His defensive steroid is slightly more useful numerically than Annie but thats really it His ult is barely more useful than Trundle's unless you manage to kill someone with it

**Who does he beat with this CC? Nobody, but he becomes actually pickable. You would be able to pick him in the Jungle and in Top lane without giving up like 80% of the things you actually need for those roles in order to be useful to your team. **

18 Comments

Ale non è male1 votes

How about no? Stun on Q and heavy slow on E means overloading his kit too much. Morde can't have anything on his thing, and is fair that he has as specific weakness mobility/CC. The problem is that actually he isn't even rewarding for reaching enemies, since if he is capable to get in fase of the enemies they can still kite him

The proper thing would be: Small slow on Q (15/20%), doubled if the enemy is in W damage range (not sure if only on self cast or even on when casting on an ally). This way, morde would still have mobility CC as weakness, but if he is capable to get to enemy, with the strong slow coming as result of the enhanced Q slow paired with Rylai slow, his enemies must fight him unless they don't blow the flash or some dashes

And W should give more armor/MR or more damage depending if you cast it on yourself or an ally (more armor/MR when cast on yourself, more damage when casted on an ally)

Kingsgrave3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gIAMbBTy,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-02-13T10:30:02.362+0000)

How about no? Stun on Q and heavy slow on E means overloading his kit too much. Morde can't have anything on his thing, and is fair that he has as specific weakness mobility/CC. The problem is that actually he isn't even rewarding for reaching enemies, since if he is capable to get in fase of the enemies they can still kite him

The proper thing would be: Small slow on Q (15/20%), doubled if the enemy is in W damage range (not sure if only on self cast or even on when casting on an ally). This way, morde would still have mobility CC as weakness, but if he is capable to get to enemy, with the strong slow coming as result of the enhanced Q slow paired with Rylai slow, his enemies must fight him unless they don't blow the flash or some dashes

And W should give more armor/MR or more damage depending if you cast it on yourself or an ally (more armor/MR when cast on yourself, more damage when casted on an ally)

What does he get for that lack of mobility?

High damage? Not even on Live compared to others CC? None Tankiness? Others are tankier with less work and scale better with items Range? Really low

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

What does he get for that lack of mobility?

Decent to good sustained damage (because of the low CDs on Q and E and the longlasting damage on W), great wave clear (W+E) , tankiness (shield + W, even though W would need tweaks if the damage don't charge the shield anymore as the W tankiness was given also by the damage)), very good sustain and decent burst with ulti, and everything considered, even decent range (700 range on E is not that shabby) He has all of this in a single kit (how much of these tankier champ have the same good wave clear?)

His only weakness is low mobility and CC. Actually it is too big of a weakness, so Morde is out of meta, but completely eliminate this weakness would just make him OP. Soft CC is the right way to go with him, to leave a clear weakness in his kit, while rewarding him a lot when he can get into enemy face

Kingsgrave2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gIAMbBTy,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-02-13T11:08:28.578+0000)

Decent to good sustained damage (because of the low CDs on Q and E and the longlasting damage on W), great wave clear (W+E) , tankiness (shield + W, even though W would need tweaks if the damage don't charge the shield anymore as the W tankiness was given also by the damage)), very good sustain and decent burst with ulti, and everything considered, even decent range (700 range on E is not that shabby) He has all of this in a single kit (how much of these tankier champ have the same good wave clear?)

His only weakness is low mobility and CC. Actually it is too big of a weakness, so Morde is out of meta, but completely eliminate this weakness would just make him OP. Soft CC is the right way to go with him, to leave a clear weakness in his kit, while rewarding him a lot when he can get into enemy face

They are nerfing his damage according to their post, and I agree with that. I assume his CDs are probably going up as well. Other bruisers have high sustained damage that rivals him on live anyway like Rumble and Diana. Same goes for Waveclear.

Who cares if he clears waves slightly better than others when he brings absolutely nothing to a team?

He doesn't bring CC for ganks or teamfights. He won't bring high damage anymore. He barely has any tankiness compared to many other characters in the game that fill the same role Riot wants him to fill Even with the waveclear he deals almost no damage to towers so its mostly moot

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

They are nerfing his damage according to their post, and I agree with that. I assume his CDs are probably going up as well. Other bruisers have high sustained damage that rivals him on live anyway like Rumble and Diana. Same goes for Waveclear.

Who cares if he clears waves slightly better than others when he brings absolutely nothing to a team?

He doesn't bring CC for ganks or teamfights. He won't bring high damage anymore. He barely has any tankiness compared to many other characters in the game that fill the same role Riot wants him to fill Even with the waveclear he deals almost no damage to towers so its mostly moot

Well, from what RiotChun said here

The damage changes will be small, our goal is to reduce his burst potential but remain the prolong threat.

I would say his laning will be approximately the same or slightly weaker and his wave clear will be approximately the same or slightly stronger (in lane).

I assume they would reduce ulti damage and would change a bit base or scalings (more base, less scalings?). Diana damage is not as good as Morde if she doesn't connect her Q, which is not an easy feat to accomplish, and Rumble has much less tankiness overall, so I don't see how this make my statement false.

Morde is decent to good on everything except mobility/CC Eliminate completely mobility/CC as weakness is too much, ther is not much you can argue here

Kingsgrave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gIAMbBTy,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-13T11:40:18.015+0000)

Well, from what RiotChun said here

I assume they would reduce ulti damage and would change a bit base or scalings (more base, less scalings?). Diana damage is not as good as Morde if she doesn't connect her Q, which is not an easy feat to accomplish, and Rumble has much less tankiness overall, so I don't see how this make my statement false.

Morde is decent to good on everything except mobility/CC Eliminate completely mobility/CC as weakness is too much, ther is not much you can argue here

Diana is mobile Rumble has higher ranges and far more utility than Morde has

Why would Morde getting CC make him OP? If anything it would actually make him useful.

1.5 second slow is barely anything. .75 second stun if they aren't isolated and 1.5 if they are is barely anything

His burst and poke and lane bullying isn't nearly as strong as someone like Renekton/Darius His dueling isn't nearly as strong as someone like Trundle/Shyvana/Irelia/Jax/Aatrox His CC would not be nearly as strong as someone like Rumble/Gragas His tankiness isn't nearly as high as someone like Mundo/Shyvana/Maokai/Nautilus His sustained damage isn't nearly as high as someone like Liss/Ori/Ryze His burst and anti-burst from dealing damage isnt nearly as high as someone like Kassadin His defensive steroid is slightly more useful numerically than Annie but thats really it His ult is barely more useful than Trundle's unless you manage to kill someone with it

Who does he beat with this CC? Nobody, but he becomes actually pickable.

Ale non è male1 votes

Diana mobility and sustained damge depends, again, from hitting Q which can be easily kited. There is a reason why she is not played, and that reason is that when she does not hit Q she is kinda useless

Rumble is just much better at some things, and he is more viable than Morde right now, but they are just two differenk kind of champs and Rumble does not have all the things Morde has, Where did you see sustain on Rumble kit? Where do you see the tankiness, given that he generally build way less tanky than Morde (Void Staf taking for sure the place of an extra defenisve/sustain item on Morde build, and Rumble often uses Rabadon instead of a more defensive item)

Morde getting hard CC would just make him OP, cause he won't have anymore any kind of weakness. he could just walk in the face of longer range champs using his tankiness to take them out, and he would be better than ever as duelist/tank. You can't just pick a single thing and say "but X champ is better at this specific thing so Morde is bad, muh CC needed) Does Renek/Darius have as good tankiness as him? Does Trundle/Irelia/Jax have range? Does Mundo(unless you eat his W all day long)/Nautilus deal as much damage as him? Can Shyvana be tanky and deal a lot of damage at same time (she has flexible build path but at a certain point she has to likely decide if go for damage or for tankiness)?

Kingsgrave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gIAMbBTy,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-13T12:05:37.328+0000)

Diana mobility and sustained damge depends, again, from hitting Q which can be easily kited. There is a reason why she is not played, and that reason is that when she does not hit Q she is kinda useless

Rumble is just much better at some things, and he is more viable than Morde right now, but they are just two differenk kind of champs and Rumble does not have all the things Morde has, Where did you see sustain on Rumble kit? Where do you see the tankiness, given that he generally build way less tanky than Morde (Void Staf taking for sure the place of an extra defenisve/sustain item on Morde build, and Rumble often uses Rabadon instead of a more defensive item)

Morde getting hard CC would just make him OP, cause he won't have anymore any kind of weakness. he could just walk in the face of longer range champs using his tankiness to take them out, and he would be better than ever as duelist/tank. You can't just pick a single thing and say "but X champ is better at this specific thing so Morde is bad, muh CC needed) Does Renek/Darius have as good tankiness as him? Does Trundle/Irelia/Jax have range? Does Mundo(unless you eat his W all day long)/Nautilus deal as much damage as him? Can Shyvana be tanky and deal a lot of damage at same time (she has flexible build path but at a certain point she has to likely decide if go for damage or for tankiness)?

Renekton increases his health by 800 and has a double dash and a 1.5 second stun and mega sustain. He is FAR tankier than Morde will ever be. Honestly Renekton is what Morde is directly competing with in terms of viability. Him and Rumble, and without CC I can't see him ever being picked over those 2 under any circumstances. Even if he had like a small amount of slow that you suggested. Its not enough to warrant picking him ever.

Trundle's Ult is a better version of Morde's except for the Ghost, he has a high amount of MS boost and has a ranged pillar with a heavy amount of slow attached to it.

Irelia has hard CC and a dash on a low CD with a high amount of CC reduction.

Jax has a low CD dash and a low CD defensive ultimate that scales with damage.

After Botrk and possibly Devourer or Trinity/Wits, Shyvana can build full tank and outdamage in sustained fights almost every other bruiser in the game. She just doesn't have CC to bring utility. She makes up for all of her weaknesses with a high amount of mobility and %health damage.

Darius has effectively more damage in every capacity which is why he is somewhat viable. He has an actual upside to his lack of mobility. But, Darius has 2 ways to close the gap on someone. He can pull them to him or get MS for damaging them with his Q. Morde has neither of those things on live.

Morde wouldn't become a Tank even with the CC, so comparing him to Mundo and Naut was a bad choice on my part. He is lesser than all other Bruisers even with the CC addition tho.

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

Renekton increases his health by 800 and has a double dash and a 1.5 second stun and mega sustain. He is FAR tankier than Morde will ever be.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH That's ridicoulous. Renek is forced to do damage and build damage items early to have an impact on the game, and when he comes to late game he has no tankiness outside the ulti (and Morde ulti heal for as much if not much more health than what renek ulti do) and the few health items he gets which are less than what Morde get, and in addition to that he get no shield and no Armor/Mr buff. To say that Renek is tankier than morde is simply dumb, Renek if can't attack with his 225 range Q to sustain himself just istantly explodes, how is that can be considered tanky? Tanky champs must be able to eat CC and damage and survive, that's not what Renek do

Trundle, irelia and Jax have no wave clear ranged tools

Darius has no tankiness

The thing is that the champs you mentioned excel in some things in which they are far better than morde, but what you still do not see is that Morde has a lot of weapons on his side to use...the thing that keeps him away from being OP is the lack of mobility/CC. The way to make him balanced, is to allieviate his mobility/CC problems, not to eliminate it. Is to reward good Morde/Morde team play, but leave bad Morde/Morde team vulnerable to mobility/CC That's why, imho, soft CC (and mobility boost like the changes on W announced) is the right way to go

Kingsgrave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gIAMbBTy,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-13T12:35:36.136+0000)

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH That's ridicoulous. Renek is forced to do damage and build damage items early to have an impact on the game, and when he comes to late game he has no tankiness outside the ulti (and Morde ulti heal for as much if not much more health than what renek ulti do) and the few health items he gets which are less than what Morde get, and in addition to that he get no shield and no Armor/Mr buff. To say that Renek is tankier than morde is simply dumb, Renek if can't attack with his 225 range Q to sustain himself just istantly explodes, how is that can be considered tanky? Tanky champs must be able to eat CC and damage and survive, that's not what Renek do

Trundle, irelia and Jax have no wave clear ranged tools

Darius has no tankiness

The thing is that the champs you mentioned excel in some things in which they are far better than morde, but what you still do not see is that Morde has a lot of weapons on his side to use...the thing that keeps him away from being OP is the lack of mobility/CC. The way to make him balanced, is to allieviate his mobility/CC problems, not to eliminate it. Is to reward good Morde/Morde team play, but leave bad Morde/Morde team vulnerable to mobility/CC That's why, imho, soft CC (and mobility boost like the changes on W announced) is the right way to go

He will only have 1.5 seconds to run 700 range to you when he slows you He will only have .75 to 1.5 seconds to do anything to you if he does happen to get into Melee range

Currently he is not even rewarded for landing Q or E other than damage, which every other Bruiser in the game does. If they were keeping Morde as a mage I would agree with your arguments, but he is going to be a Bruiser now and that means BRINGING FUCKING CC TO A TEAM.

If Renekton can't get to a team with an effective 950 range gap closer and 4-5 tank items without being blown up he is probably bronze.

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

** He will only have 1.5 seconds to run 700 range to you when he slows you** He will only have .75 to 1.5 seconds to do anything to you if he does happen to get into Melee range

Currently he is not even rewarded for landing Q or E other than damage, which every other Bruiser in the game does. If they were keeping Morde as a mage I would agree with your arguments, but he is going to be a Bruiser now and that means BRINGING FUCKING CC TO A TEAM.

If Renekton can't get to a team with an effective 950 range gap closer and 4-5 tank items without being blown up he is probably bronze.

Except that you have to add Rylai slow on top of that. You are basically applying Nasus's Wither to the enemies, with the difference that with the same skill on Morde you would also clear waves amd will have 100 range more than what nasus get...and, above all you could apply this Wither-like effect to multiple enemies in the E cone. have you even been withere by a Nasus? Well, I guess you could now understand how unrealistic is your suggestion now... And, add on top of that a further stun chaining Cc on enemy while you deal damage...do you really not see how overpowered would be this?

Morde not being rewarded for other than damage when hitting Q Is a problem, when did I not agree with that? That's why I think something should be given to Morde Q. But, a stun, added to a Wither like slow on E? No freaking way

And LMFAO about your thoughts on Renekton. Renek problem isn't surely get in the face of a team, the problem is to survive while he get in the face of a team and deal enough damage to sustain without being CCed and shut down istantly. And Renekton can't build 4/5 tank items, if he build 4/5 tank items like you argue he is probably a terrible Renekton(unless you consider upgraded boots as a tank item, then we should debate what the hell is your definition for tank item)

Kingsgrave2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gIAMbBTy,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-13T13:48:44.878+0000)

Except that you have to add Rylai slow on top of that. You are basically applying Nasus's Wither to the enemies, with the difference that with the same skill on Morde you would also clear waves amd will have 100 range more than what nasus get...and, above all you could apply this Wither-like effect to multiple enemies in the E cone. have you even been withere by a Nasus? Well, I guess you could now understand how unrealistic is your suggestion now... And, add on top of that a further stun chaining Cc on enemy while you deal damage...do you really not see how overpowered would be this?

Morde not being rewarded for other than damage when hitting Q Is a problem, when did I not agree with that? That's why I think something should be given to Morde Q. But, a stun, added to a Wither like slow on E? No freaking way

And LMFAO about your thoughts on Renekton. Renek problem isn't surely get in the face of a team, the problem is to survive while he get in the face of a team and deal enough damage to sustain without being CCed and shut down istantly. And Renekton can't build 4/5 tank items, if he build 4/5 tank items like you argue he is probably a terrible Renekton(unless you consider upgraded boots as a tank item, then we should debate what the hell is your definition for tank item)

Rylais doesnt stack additively to slows. Besides, if he already had Rylais its pointless to build it when you can just get Liandries without wasting 2 item slots for the combo.

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

Rylais doesnt stack additively to slows. Besides, if he already had Rylais its pointless to build it when you can just get Liandries without wasting 2 item slots for the combo.

It is still applied the 65% of the 15% slow on AoE abilities. level 5 E + rylai still grants you 70% slow, which is A LOT, especially given that would be applied istantly (unlike Wither ) And Rylai is builded by Morde because of the pure stats (it is the item with the most AP + health raw stats), it is core on him anyway

Kingsgrave1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gIAMbBTy,comment-id=0001000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-13T14:37:35.364+0000)

It is still applied the 65% of the 15% slow on AoE abilities. level 5 E + rylai still grants you 70% slow, which is A LOT, especially given that would be applied istantly (unlike Wither ) And Rylai is builded by Morde because of the pure stats (it is the item with the most AP + health raw stats), it is core on him anyway

Its only core because he has no CC and he needs it to be relevant.

Cass never builds Rylais Naut never builds it Liss never builds it

Why? They all have slows and the slot efficiency is wasted on it

Ale non è male1 votes

{quoted}

Its only core because he has no CC and he needs it to be relevant.

Cass never builds Rylais Naut never builds it Liss never builds it

Why? They all have slows and the slot efficiency is wasted on it

LOL. If you check on Lolking Rylai is one of the most common items on Cass Liss don't get it because she better go with RoA for pure stats given that she needs both health and mana And Nautilus builds as pure tank, so he has other way to get tankiness and health he needs

Rylai will be core on Morde as long as he does not make use of mana, since no other item come close to it about giving AP and health, barring RoA, which mana stat got wasted on Morde

KoKoboto1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gIAMbBTy,comment-id=00010000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-02-13T15:01:05.477+0000)

LOL. If you check on Lolking Rylai is one of the most common items on Cass Liss don't get it because she better go with RoA for pure stats given that she needs both health and mana And Nautilus builds as pure tank, so he has other way to get tankiness and health he needs

Rylai will be core on Morde as long as he does not make use of mana, since no other item come close to it about giving AP and health, barring RoA, which mana stat got wasted on Morde

dude tank morde is gonna suck, no way to burst someone down, good luck getting a ghost, your just gonna walk around and hit stuff and die lmfao You will LITERALLY have to rely on a teammate going ahead of you first if you wanna even touch the enemy squishy, good luck peeling for your team because you do no damage and have no CC now btw and thats what your gonna have to do, dosen't matter if you are tankier now if you have no CC, also MIKAELS, on supports removes ghost and QSS Mercurial is being bought a lot more often now so gud luck with that as well :/ this new morde is bleh Im betting that the ghost rate will go down

Ale non è male2 votes

Morde had no way to burst down someone before, at least for what is the definition of "burst" in league, and Rylai was core before and will be core after the DFG removal first and change after, so what you are talking about?

When you look at Morde, and Morde changes, you have to look at his interactions with Rylai since it is a core item on him, unlike CynicalGiant was saying. Even if they would do hsi proposed changes, by sheer stats Rylai would be used on Morde. So he has to consider how Rylai strengthen Morde ability, and he clearly didn't do that.

This has nothing to do with the tank Morde viable or not discussion. Morde shouldn't even evolve in a tank, imho, he should be the bruiser-mage he has always been, but receiving some slight buff to relieve the problems on mobility/CC, which should still represent not a strong point on his kit, because he has yet so much tools in his kit that adding good CC would make him OP

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