Riot, please, don't change Sejuani E

DropFill·Nov 26, 2014·21 votes·1,944 views

1.5 sec for a slow is pretty bad, even though it is AoE, she needs to hit people still, so it doesn't lack counterplay. But people are really mobile, using permafrost twice will be something that will not happen. Leave the damage and CD as it is ( I like the changes on her Q to W, but I would like a better AP ratio on her Q ). I really love to play Sejuani as a full ap assassin, and nerfing permafrost will ruin this playstyle, since it is core part of her burst. ( Will also nerf tank sejuani , since she will not able to constant engage on the target she slowed ).

56 Comments

TalamareNov 26, 201413 votes

I swear Riot is only balancing for ADCs, its complete bull

Lumus AvatarNov 26, 20145 votes

I was unaware there was anything wrong with live Sejuani. Why does she need changing?

DropFillNov 26, 20149 votes

I was unaware there was anything wrong with live Sejuani. Why does she need changing?

She has a pretty bad clear time, due to the fact that her W damage is bad. But riot is giving it health damage, but makes no sense to nerf it's base damage AND nerf the base damage on her E just because they want it to have a lower CD. Just increase her W damage, without lowering her base damage ( maybe increase it a bit? It is a DoT that has a bad base damage ) and leave her E as it is ( maybe buffing the CD to 10 or 9 seconds, but without lowering the damage ).

Lumus AvatarNov 26, 20142 votes

oh. ok.

...Can we NOT have the %max hp damage? and just have higher damage? Or ability synergy with a particular jungle items that improves the clear time?

Why not just improve her low level damage and reduce the curve as it gains ranks so it starts higher at rank 1 but ends about the same at rank 5 as live?

%max hp damage is just such a broken mechanic; I don't want them ruining a good champ by adding that to her kit.

Fed by Snu SnuNov 26, 20147 votes

She already has % max hp damage bra. It's only shifted from Q to W, which is practically a nerf for her teamfights.

Lumus AvatarNov 26, 20141 votes

Does she? I need to check this. How would it nerf her team fight? wouldn't that mean she's spreading more %max hp damage around more people for more hits? (5 hits aoe with frozen mark)

EDIT: You're right. Her Q does deal 4/6/8/10/12% of the max hp of the enemy on live. I didn't realize that. sigh I'm sure I've benefited from it, but I still don't think %max hp damage is a good mechanic.

DropFillNov 26, 20144 votes

Does she? I need to check this. How would it nerf her team fight? wouldn't that mean she's spreading more %max hp damage around more people for more hits? (5 hits aoe with frozen mark)

EDIT: You're right. Her Q does deal 4/6/8/10/12% of the max hp of the enemy on live. I didn't realize that. sigh I'm sure I've benefited from it, but I still don't think %max hp damage is a good mechanic.

It may be a bad mechanic, but in order to compensate it, riot would have to give her strong base damages and better AP ratios. And , for some reason, they have problems with this kind of balance. They like to throw health damage in every single champion I really love sejuani, but this changes are not going to make her viable.

Lumus AvatarNov 26, 20142 votes

I love Sejuani, too. I am very tired of the %max HP damage on all these champs making all tanks irrelevant. (including Tank Sejuani). I think they're changing too many things too quickly to have ANY kind of metric for the effect of the changes.

DemiluniSNov 26, 20141 votes

they got it on champions to let them have a small burst of damage to be able to deal with fighters in a 1v1 scenario if they are ahead

DemiluniSNov 26, 20141 votes

they're not adding higher ap scaling to a tank since she's not supposed to buy ap items as her core items, she got hp scaling on her W and it got buffed significantly

DropFillNov 26, 20142 votes

they're not adding higher ap scaling to a tank since she's not supposed to buy ap items as her core items, she got hp scaling on her W and it got buffed significantly

Amumu has good ap ratios, all of his abilities are good with AP. Should we nerf his ap ratios so, since he is not supposed to buy AP items? This is called diversity, and they are killing it on sejuani by nerfing her E base damage + slow.

DemiluniSNov 27, 20141 votes

amumu is amumu, amumu doesn't have hp scaling and doesn't have a way to stick to his target outside of his Q, and his ratios are about the same as sejuani's if you take her hp scaling into account which is her main source of damage, and they halved the cd on it, so late game you gonna do more damage during the same amount of time with her E

DropFillNov 27, 20142 votes

amumu is amumu, amumu doesn't have hp scaling and doesn't have a way to stick to his target outside of his Q, and his ratios are about the same as sejuani's if you take her hp scaling into account which is her main source of damage, and they halved the cd on it, so late game you gonna do more damage during the same amount of time with her E

Amumu doesn't have hp scaling because he has a spammable ap ratio ability that reduces basic attack dmg, plus a long range gapcloser and a better AoE ultimate than sejuani ( the AoE is better , not the range. ). Also, his W has 100% uptime in teamfights and do maximum health damage.

I don't want them to change the CD, because they are GUTTING the base damage of it. Just change her Q power to W, and WAIT. If she is okay, don't touch her E. No one asked her E to be EVER touched. People seems to not see that is a bad change. Doesn't matter if the CD is lower, because the duration and damage is also lower and her E is not a fucking poke that you can't spam all the time. ( And should not be ).

Fed by Snu SnuNov 26, 20143 votes

No, because it's the initial hit that will do the % dmg, the following AoE will function as it currently does. (scaling with bonus hp)

Which means that the AoE radius of her % max dmg is much lower, thus a nerf on her AoE burst.

Lumus AvatarNov 26, 20141 votes

How much bigger is the aoe on her Q hit than on her W initial hit?

Khell DarkWolfNov 26, 20141 votes

If you can time Q right for the hitbox detection, it is possible to hit more then 2 players for the damage and slight knockback interruption.

DropFillNov 26, 20142 votes

How much bigger is the aoe on her Q hit than on her W initial hit?

Not that much. My problem though is the fact that riot is nerfing her base W damage because of the health damage, even though is just a power shift ( her Q is not being buffed on its base damage ) and her E base damage is being GUTTED just because they reduced the CD, even though is hard to see sejuani using it more than once in a teamfight on important targets. I like the switch of the health damage to her W, but her base damage and her E should stay the same ( or buff her ap ratios a bit and her base damage, since they are pretty low ).

Lumus AvatarNov 26, 20142 votes

I don't like these number shifting games they play. How do you actually balance this stuff?

DemiluniSNov 26, 20141 votes

they nerfing her base damage but they changing the scaling to scale of 10% of total hp instead of % bonus hp, which is 220 damage just from her base hp at level 18, it's huge

DemiluniSNov 26, 20141 votes

because currently on live her % damage tied to her mobility move which kinda fucks her up, if you used it and missed it you got no damage for a while, I think the chage makes her more consistant which is what she needed.

SmokingPuffinNov 26, 20144 votes

If they're going to buff her jungle clearing ability, they're going to need to take power out somewhere else.

Current E is incredibly strong. It's basically a Thresh ult on a 10 second cooldown.

iFossilNov 26, 20144 votes

With all the mobile champion out there, you call that incredibly strong? Then what is Nasus 5 second 95% slow like? E is the reason Sej is still viable, not even close to be incredibly strong. Thresh ult is 99% btw.

SmokingPuffinNov 26, 20143 votes

With all the mobile champion out there, you call that incredibly strong? Then what is Nasus 5 second 95% slow like? E is the reason Sej is still viable, not even close to be incredibly strong. Thresh ult is 99% btw.

Sejuani is mobile too, and has a ranged CC ult. Even Kalista can't reliably escape the boar lady.

Sejuani is pretty weak today. Too bad at the jungle part of jungling. However, if you made her good at jungling, and leave the rest of her kit as it is, she becomes a monster. She's one of the best gankers there is, and her lategame teamfighting is extremely powerful.

I'm pretty sure the PBE changes are a good idea. I don't want a repeat of the season 3 problem where they buffed her and she took over the world and they nerfed her through the floor. Just a nice, viable level of good please.

KingsgraveNov 26, 20141 votes

With all the mobile champion out there, you call that incredibly strong? Then what is Nasus 5 second 95% slow like? E is the reason Sej is still viable, not even close to be incredibly strong. Thresh ult is 99% btw.

Sejuani is mobile too, and has a ranged CC ult. Even Kalista can't reliably escape the boar lady.

Sejuani is pretty weak today. Too bad at the jungle part of jungling. However, if you made her good at jungling, and leave the rest of her kit as it is, she becomes a monster. She's one of the best gankers there is, and her lategame teamfighting is extremely powerful.

I'm pretty sure the PBE changes are a good idea. I don't want a repeat of the season 3 problem where they buffed her and she took over the world and they nerfed her through the floor. Just a nice, viable level of good please.

This.

They also made it so you can apply your E a lot more often than before but for less of a damage or slow, which can be a good thing considering your Q is no longer conditional on Max HP to do high damage anymore and your W now scales with Total Health and enemy Max Health. Its a power shift because current Sejuani would be absolutely bonkers with good jungle clearing.

iFossilNov 26, 20144 votes

But these changes are design for sej players to either max Q or W first, leaving Sej's E at rank one with 1.5 second 50% slow (10 sec cool down), that is clearly worse than before.

Let's say if you still max E first, if it is even worth it, you are basically spending 50% more mana to do what it used to. That's going to hurt when jungle sejuani's problem is early clearing. But may be you will be fine with a blue buff, I'm not too sure.

Overall, IMO no matter how more often you can spam it, if you can't stick to your enemies, you will have a harder time ganking, burst damage is always better than sustain damage for ganking. When they shift the burst damage to sustain damage and reduces the stickiness of sej, that is going to hurt her a lot. Q and R have a lot longer CD to help you reach the gap again for the second attempt of using E once they have escaped. (Shorter duration of slow and the nerf damage means that you are more likely to do it twice instead of doing it once, without Q or R, I can see it will be harder for sej to even use the E for a second time)

After all is her E still worthy of maxing first?

The main problem is that they might be making her jungling better, but they didn't leave her kit as it is, her E is going to hurt her gank a lot. Even in team fight, you are not that likely to use the E twice if you can't burst down the adc/ap. The reason Sejuani seems mobile because she has her Q and R for her to reach the enemies for her E, but once Q/R are on CD, she will suffer from the chance of even able to use her E again. I understand in late game you have a lot of CDR, but her late game is never the problem.

DropFillNov 26, 20144 votes

But these changes are design for sej players to either max Q or W first, leaving Sej's E at rank one with 1.5 second 50% slow (10 sec cool down), that is clearly worse than before.

Let's say if you still max E first, if it is even worth it, you are basically spending 50% more mana to do what it used to. That's going to hurt when jungle sejuani's problem is early clearing. But may be you will be fine with a blue buff, I'm not too sure.

Overall, IMO no matter how more often you can spam it, if you can't stick to your enemies, you will have a harder time ganking, burst damage is always better than sustain damage for ganking. When they shift the burst damage to sustain damage and reduces the stickiness of sej, that is going to hurt her a lot. Q and R have a lot longer CD to help you reach the gap again for the second attempt of using E once they have escaped. (Shorter duration of slow and the nerf damage means that you are more likely to do it twice instead of doing it once, without Q or R, I can see it will be harder for sej to even use the E for a second time)

After all is her E still worthy of maxing first?

The main problem is that they might be making her jungling better, but they didn't leave her kit as it is, her E is going to hurt her gank a lot. Even in team fight, you are not that likely to use the E twice if you can't burst down the adc/ap. The reason Sejuani seems mobile because she has her Q and R to her her to reach the enemies for her E, but once Q/R are on CD, she will suffer from the chance of even able to use her E again. I understand in late game you have a lot of CDR, but her late game is never the problem.

^THIS I understand the change on her Q to W, but there is NO REASON to touch her E. The first already makes her good. But them, riot goes and nerf her to "compensate" the buff. God dammit she wasn't even good to nerf something on her. Just shift her Q power to W , and wait. Leave her E as it is

DropFillNov 26, 20143 votes

With all the mobile champion out there, you call that incredibly strong? Then what is Nasus 5 second 95% slow like? E is the reason Sej is still viable, not even close to be incredibly strong. Thresh ult is 99% btw.

Sejuani is mobile too, and has a ranged CC ult. Even Kalista can't reliably escape the boar lady.

Sejuani is pretty weak today. Too bad at the jungle part of jungling. However, if you made her good at jungling, and leave the rest of her kit as it is, she becomes a monster. She's one of the best gankers there is, and her lategame teamfighting is extremely powerful.

I'm pretty sure the PBE changes are a good idea. I don't want a repeat of the season 3 problem where they buffed her and she took over the world and they nerfed her through the floor. Just a nice, viable level of good please.

I can't understand why people say she is " one of the best gankers there is". In this point, Naut is better, Amumu has better clear time and good ganks. Lee sin and Vi too. All of their skillshots have higher range than sejuani's Q.

DropFillNov 26, 20142 votes

If they're going to buff her jungle clearing ability, they're going to need to take power out somewhere else.

Current E is incredibly strong. It's basically a Thresh ult on a 10 second cooldown.

First : Her jungle clear was always bad Second : Thresh ult doesn't need people to get hit by a ability first. Third: They NEED to buff her clear time because new jungle is hard as fuck to clear.

Fury and EmperorNov 26, 20143 votes

I remember her slow before the rework.

Slows everyone by 70% for 2.5 seconds and their children too, and their children's children.

DropFillNov 26, 20143 votes

I remember her slow before the rework.

Slows everyone by 70% for 2.5 seconds and their children too, and their children's children.

She was pretty good before her rework. Than riot fucked her up

GoldenLeSpoinkNov 26, 20142 votes

I don't know, I like these changes to Sej, her E with full cooldown reduction will only take 2-3 seconds to reactivate at max level.

Dominick DestineNov 27, 20145 votes

I don't know, I like these changes to Sej, her E with full cooldown reduction will only take 2-3 seconds to reactivate at max level.

So basically a nerf that forces her to stack CDR just to be able to slow people at the same rate as before. That sure sounds like a "buff" to me.

3.6 cooldown with 40% cdr for a 1.5 second slow, made even worse by the fact that you need to have Frost on them to begin with... you can now capitalize less on each application of Frost ---> Permafrost than you used to.

GoldenLeSpoinkNov 27, 20141 votes

A 1.5 second slow is not bad at all, and I do not know about you, but hell, they need to do changes to make her have more of diverse building path; I play AP Sej more than TANK Sej, and this "buff" * Thanks for using the quotes ;) * helps her be able to do AP much more effectively. TANK Sej is located in the other buffs, and honestly, you should not be chasing down a kill for more than 3-5 seconds; even if they have less than 50 HP.

DropFillNov 27, 20142 votes

I would really like a rioter to comment something, because as I see, no one really wants this E change

Knight DevoutNov 26, 20141 votes

You do realize those are all buffs to AP sejuani, right? With the reduced cooldown , she can proc the damage 2 or three times in teamfights, meaning the 0.5 ap ratio will be used multiple times.

And health damage on W makes sense and makes her jungle MUCH better.

Ecchi GoriraNov 26, 20144 votes

W changes won't help her early clear times, it will actually worsen it. It will help her once she starts building health but at that point she doesn't have clear issues anyway.

I think she is in a good spot right now. These changes are uncalled for. Not many junglers can clear all camps without going B and sej is one of them.

Knight DevoutNov 26, 20143 votes

TOTAL health means she gains damage on W just by leveling.

EndlessSorcererNov 26, 20141 votes

The W changes help her clearing. IIRC, every large jungle monster has more than 1000HP at the start of the game, which is the point that the max percent health damage exceeds her previous base damage on the initial hit. In addition, her W AoE would scale with her Total Health instead of her Bonus Health; her base health gives her damage now, with a similar ratio as bonus health did.

DropFillNov 26, 20141 votes

You do realize those are all buffs to AP sejuani, right? With the reduced cooldown , she can proc the damage 2 or three times in teamfights, meaning the 0.5 ap ratio will be used multiple times.

And health damage on W makes sense and makes her jungle MUCH better.

You do realize that AP sejuani is not durable right? She won't survive two or three rotations of her spells in a teamfight.

Sightless66Nov 26, 20142 votes

AP Sejuani is extremely focused on instant burst. It's not uncommon to not get to a second spell rotation before the fight is decided one way or the other, and given that her first rotation will have much lower E damage due to base damage nerfs, it's pretty solidly going to be a nerf to AP Sej.

DropFillNov 27, 20141 votes

AP Sejuani is extremely focused on instant burst. It's not uncommon to not get to a second spell rotation before the fight is decided one way or the other, and given that her first rotation will have much lower E damage due to base damage nerfs, it's pretty solidly going to be a nerf to AP Sej.

^This If they ONLY change her Q power to W, while keeping the damage based on her maximum health, will be enough , IMO , for her right now. I still think her passive needs a little buff since the jungle monsters are hitting hard ( maybe 10 more of armor at all ranks )

KingsgraveNov 26, 20141 votes

Her E gets an effective 3.6 second CD with 40% CDR and her damage is mostly the same as it is on live, just shifted around. Having all of her damage in her E seemed a bit much.

Wait until you play her game to make a judgement call. This is very much one of those paper vs reality moments.

DropFillNov 26, 20143 votes

Her E gets an effective 3.6 second CD with 40% CDR and her damage is mostly the same as it is on live, just shifted around. Having all of her damage in her E seemed a bit much.

Wait until you play her game to make a judgement call. This is very much one of those paper vs reality moments.

40% CDR + Lvl 5 permafrost = 35 minutes into the game. Good luck reaching there.

EndlessSorcererNov 26, 20141 votes

Not really. 5% CDR Masteries + 5% CDR Glyphs + 10% CDR (Juggernaut) + 20% CDR (Frozen Heart). For tank Sejuani, it can be closer to 20 minutes, with 20% CDR since ~10 minutes.

DropFillNov 26, 20142 votes

Not really. 5% CDR Masteries + 5% CDR Glyphs + 10% CDR (Juggernaut) + 20% CDR (Frozen Heart). For tank Sejuani, it can be closer to 20 minutes, with 20% CDR since ~10 minutes.

Why would buy frozen heart before health items ? ( I am not couting the juggernaut health ). Also, i think she needs the atk speed masteries for her waveclear. It is not close to 20 minutes game.

EndlessSorcererNov 26, 20141 votes

I have a bit of an odd path when I play her in the current jungle.

Runes: Armor Quints, Scaling Health Seals, 3 MR + 6 CDR Glyphs, Attack Speed Marks OR 1 Armor + 2 MS Quints, Scaling Armor Seals, 3 MR + 6 CDR Glyphs, Attack Speed Marks Masteries: 4/17/9 or 0/17/13 Items: Boots, Juggernaut, Frozen Heart, Banshee's Veil, Liandry's Torment Skill Order: WQEWWR, R>W>E>Q

As a CC tank, I like getting early CDR and mana so I can be more disruptive during fights with my abilities. I'd gladly sacrifice a little damage for more mobility, CC, and uptime on my ultimate for ganks. It helps her waveclear as well since you have little downtime on your W and can use your abilities more frequently.

I'm sure it's probably not the best method of building Sejuani but I find that it suits my playstyle. I tried getting Sunfire Cape after Juggernaut didn't think the extra damage was that necessary since my main role is to provide CC and durablity in teamfights. The AoE damage was nice, but I get additional damage and utility with the CDR on Frozen Heart anyways so I prefer it. If I really want more damage, I'll get a Haunting Guise at some point after finishing Juggernaut so I can build Liandry's Torment afterwards.

KingsgraveNov 26, 20141 votes

But these changes are design for sej players to either max Q or W first, leaving Sej's E at rank one with 1.5 second 50% slow (10 sec cool down), that is clearly worse than before.

Let's say if you still max E first, if it is even worth it, you are basically spending 50% more mana to do what it used to. That's going to hurt when jungle sejuani's problem is early clearing. But may be you will be fine with a blue buff, I'm not too sure.

Overall, IMO no matter how more often you can spam it, if you can't stick to your enemies, you will have a harder time ganking, burst damage is always better than sustain damage for ganking. When they shift the burst damage to sustain damage and reduces the stickiness of sej, that is going to hurt her a lot. Q and R have a lot longer CD to help you reach the gap again for the second attempt of using E once they have escape. (Shorter duration of slow and the nerf damage means that you are more likely to do it twice instead of doing it once, without Q or R, I can see it will be harder for sej to even use the E for a second time)

After all is her E still worthy of maxing first?

The main problem is that they might be making her jungling better, but they didn't leave her kit as it is, her E is going to hurt her gank a lot.

the obvious path to me is W then E, with Q being the one point wonder. You get a lot more from maxing E since its up a lot more often than you do Q, and honestly E shouldn't be for burst. It should be for CC.

Honestly you can't have an AP burst laner thats also able to be tanky and highly mobile be viable, so it had to be hit eventually. You also can't have an AP tanky burst jungler that can also clear really well, which is why she got hit but got better clears.

DropFillNov 26, 20142 votes

the obvious path to me is W then E, with Q being the one point wonder. You get a lot more from maxing E since its up a lot more often than you do Q, and honestly E shouldn't be for burst. It should be for CC.

Honestly you can't have an AP burst laner thats also able to be tanky and highly mobile be viable, so it had to be hit eventually. You also can't have an AP tanky burst jungler that can also clear really well, which is why she got hit but got better clears.

I always lvled up her E and than her Q , playing her full ap. Her E was for burst if AP, or for the CC if TANK. There were really different ways the ability could work. But with this change, both the AP burst and the CC are getting nerfed, because you can't stick to the target for that long and her lack of base burst will make her ganks pretty shitty.