Ranged champions have a disproportionate advantage over melee champions, let’s address some items

HateDaddy··55 votes·15,215 views

People are complaining about Viktor Top and personally, I don’t mind it until he completes item 3025. This is because once he completes it, i no longer have a choice of whether I want to fight him or not. If he decides he wants to run me down and keep me perma slowed, he’s going to. But I’m not going to be able to stick to him because he will kite me infinitely as a melee champion. This is an illustration of the classic problem with melee vs ranged interactions.

By virtue of having range, ranged champions have an inherent advantage over melee champions, even melee champions with gap closers against immobile ranged champions. Why? Because the burden is always on the melee champion to engage on the ranged champion and this usually means they’re going to eat quite a bit of damage just to do this. The ranged champion will get off unprovoked damage before the melee even lands their damage and that’s dependent upon if they even can. Not to mention, even immobile ranged champions have tools to deal with mobile melee champions, often in the form of hard CC (and if it’s skill shot hard CC, you’re often awarded long ranged abilities as a result; if you’re not long ranged, you’ll generally have point and click CC). Of course these are generalizations, so there are obviously examples that contradict these but they are few and far between, thus insignificant to the discussion.

So what is the problem? The problem is that, as I’ve mentionef, ranged champions already have tools to deal with melee champions diving them. In Viktors case, he has his cage that he drops and general longer range. And I don’t mind that, it is a good interaction. If Viktor drops his cage properly, he wins. If he doesn’t, he loses. It depends on the gameplay. What changes is that viktor buys item 3025 and you’ve suddenly removed a great deal of skill that it took for Viktor to work. Let’s be honest, Viktor wasn’t even a top tier champion prior to this. Now he is going to get nerfed and become even weaker in mid lane for abusing an item interaction that Riot refuses to address.

This interaction is ranged champions using items that were clearly intended for melee champions: item 3025item 3022; and even item 3116 falls into this category because mages really do not need this item. Whenever it has been good, it has been abused to allow mages to avoid actually needing to land skill shots and simply perma slowing shit to death. Ranged champions abuse this interaction do hard and ultimately end up getting their intended play styles nerfed and the items themselves nerfed, actually hurting both the champions these items were designed to help as well as the champions original play styles. Let’s be honest, there has never been a playstyle where ranged champions using these items as off-builds (and in some cases, normal builds) has been fun - it’s always been incredibly toxic. And I am not interested in preserving blue Ez because that shit is one of the most toxic playstyles in the game.

So I’ve presented my case and I’ll make it simply. Make these items melee only. Ranged champions already have inherent tools to deal with divers, why are they allowed to abuse items intended for melee champions to circumnavigate that interaction and thus reduce their complexity while further increasing the complexity of melee champions? This is why champions like Aatrox, Irelia, Zed, Riven and Jax have to exist: it’s the only consistent way to keep this bull-shit gap closed and even then, it’s not closed because they all get nerfed into oblivion for doing what they were intended to. It needs to change.

102 Comments

SithesisLord24 votes

In what world are Mallet and Rylai's made for melee champions?

They´re made for champions who have trouble sticking to people and don´t take Phase Rush. Melee or otherwise.

SwiftKitten8811 votes

{quoted}

In what world are Mallet and Rylai's made for melee champions?

They´re made for champions who have trouble sticking to people and don´t take Phase Rush. Melee or otherwise.

So item 3116 was "Clearly intended for melee champs"?

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

SithesisLord9 votes

Diana doesn´t have a problem sticking to champs. Neither does Ahri, LB, Ekko, Fizz, Kassadin, Nidalee.

Kayle does. Cass when PR is on CD does. Malzahar does.

Beast Brawler4 votes

Mordekaiser does though my guy. Plus, Kayle and Morgana are getting the next reworks, so we'll see how she is when she's released.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Only way kayle has a problem sticking to anyone is when they want to play greedy and stay at max auto range instead of using their Massive slow nuke q and Massive heal / speed boost w to orb walk.

SithesisLord1 votes

Or maybe because they want to save mana, with Kayle being one of the few champions left with actual mana costs in the game.

LordGeovanni1 votes

kayle may have innate mana costs but that only gates her in lane once she gets ap items with mana conserving mana doesnt even rank on kayles priorites. Tanks have a tougher time with spamming spells and mana than any mage even with that their some of their items give around the same amount of mana as mage items but that mana is acutally counted toward that items power unlike mage items. On the other hand tanks never spam out spells because they know they will run oom and they know that they will die if they use their spells off cooldown without hitting anyone when near an enemy champ because tanks have long cooldowns (the opposite is why kayle has mana problems not because she has high mana costs but rather because her cooldowns are so dam low)

Terozu3 votes

Isn't Rylais biggest user battle mages like Taliyah Aurelion and Karthus?

HateDaddy10 votes

{quoted}

In what world are Mallet and Rylai's made for melee champions?

They´re made for champions who have trouble sticking to people and don´t take Phase Rush. Melee or otherwise.

Mallet is clearly intended for melee champions who lack innate sticking power. I said that rylais is a bit different but to be honest, rylais has never been a healthy item when used by mages either. I’m not sure mallet or rylais are healthy regardless of who they are built on to be completely honest.

TehNACHO4 votes

{quoted}

Mallet is clearly intended for melee champions who lack innate sticking power

Okay. You're not answering the question. What makes this mean that it's made for melee champions explicitly?

AirKingNeo4 votes

the fact it's a bruiser item with bruiser components?

DuskDaUmbreon5 votes

And there's no ranged champion that would like extra health?

Chembaron Yamada7 votes

item 3070 Urgot item 3070

U R Good At Game2 votes

That's the issue with alot of item balancing, ranged carries abusing hybrid items.... You can LIKE extra hp or resistance but that's because you weren't meant to have it... then they have to nerf the item and ruin it for every other class because ranged champions are abusing it. I mean they even had to start restricting items from ranged champions with steraks.

A ranged champion is not supposed to have hybrid bruiser items. AP or AD.

Iota Theta1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Play This Game,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g3sc2RZ2,comment-id=000100010001000000010001,timestamp=2018-10-29T23:48:17.690+0000)

That's the issue with alot of item balancing, ranged carries abusing hybrid items.... You can LIKE extra hp or resistance but that's because you weren't meant to have it... then they have to nerf the item and ruin it for every other class because ranged champions are abusing it. I mean they even had to start restricting items from ranged champions with steraks.

A ranged champion is not supposed to have hybrid bruiser items. AP or AD.

There should be value in health for AD champs and glass cannons, but should come at a sacrifice or an item that’s tuned around it. Cleaver, Sterak’s, and Mallet were fighter items that ranged picked up for various reasons and synergize with. Perhaps if they had their own designed it wouldn’t be as bad, so long as it’s tuned properly? I mean, GA was adapted to be an AD/armor item to help AD champs, and comes with lower AD. Perhaps similar could be done with health for them, at the cost of attack speed or crit? Mallet would likely not even be as bad on them if it hadn’t been for the slow, and Sterak’s shield gave them too much shield against assassin’s burst. It’s possible they could’ve been healthy with different passives.

U R Good At Game2 votes

That's called a tank item... There are items in the game currently that give you little ad and high health yet NO ADC builds it. Your idea only works on paper. ADCs don't want balanced hybrid items, they want to abuse bruiser items.

Iota Theta2 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Play This Game,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g3sc2RZ2,comment-id=00010001000100000001000100010000,timestamp=2018-10-30T04:01:48.184+0000)

That's called a tank item... There are items in the game currently that give you little ad and high health yet NO ADC builds it. Your idea only works on paper. ADCs don't want balanced hybrid items, they want to abuse bruiser items.

Oh really, higher health and lower AD = tank item? Not really, since tanks usually care little for damage and more for resists.

And what items are those? Cleaver, Mallet, Sterak’s, etc. All the higher health/lower AD items are based around fighters, so your point that they don’t use them and “only want to abuse fighter items” doesn’t hold up, because the only ones right now are fighter items.

But take Lucian, Graves, and MF right now, although MF a bit less right now. If you adjust Cleaver to only be melee or something like that in this instance, these champs will be out a core item they seemingly needed. Now, they use the item far better than the intended users do, so it’s not really a bad idea. But, take it away and what do caster marksmen have? Essence Reaver, the lifesteal items, and not much else, especially since Caster Marksmen don’t use crit as well as other ADCs, but more CDR. That’s also why we had non-crit ADCs running BotRK, Cleaver, Mallet (Kindred). The rarely ran Cleaver before, so why did they change, and even with the nerfed AD and higher health, they still use it, mainly for the passives and likely the CDR. The passive nerf knocked out some Mallet ADCs. But if they synergize well with stats, is it not worth looking into if they would use a similar one, maybe Cleaver but lower health and higher AD, but with a different set of passives (make them mutually exclusive to each other)?

edit: actually, on second thought of my post, bloodthirster and bortk don’t work as well on casters, since they auto less

LordGeovanni1 votes

It is a tank item when there is minimal ad and all the best parts of the item go to keeping the user alive because the stats are garbage in the first place despite being super expensive or as armor shred to set up another class.

Iota Theta1 votes

{quoted}

It is a tank item when there is minimal ad and all the best parts of the item go to keeping the user alive because the stats are garbage in the first place despite being super expensive or as armor shred to set up another class.

There’s a difference between a defensive item snd a tank item. Tank items typically carry more health and resists, no damage stats. Actually, not a single actual tank item carries AD or AP. A fighter item is a closer term, giving AD and Health, but anyone should be able to get defensive items. The biggest issue with a lot of ADC defensive items is, beyond GA, most are focused on auto attacks. If the AD champ is a caster, they can’t make as much use of the crit items, or of straight AS or lifesteal, so PD, Botrk, BT, QSS, and the like are trickier to use. That leaves the best options as GA, possibly Maw, and probably Death’s Dance for healing. Why can’t an AD caster also get a chunk of health at the cost of a bit of AD if they need to survive more

LordGeovanni1 votes

Ad GA benifited no one but adcs and assassins when other classes were also using the items not to mention that the item itself got several changes to make it un appealing to melee fighters and tanks like working off base hp when those same 2 classes have low base hp outside of a few outliers so that they are forced into building defensive items. and 300 base hp isnt alot to call the diffrence between a tank vs an assassin mage or adc in the first place.

Spank the Fox4 votes

“Squishies should stop complaining about being bursted if they build no defense”

“Wait, no they can’t have X because it’s a tank/bruiser item!!!”

Is HP a bruiser exclusive component?

U R Good At Game3 votes

Yes. That is why almost everytime an ADC abuses a bruiser item it gets nerfed and the reason they restricted steraks from adcs. Harass mages and ADCs are SUPPOSED to blow up when you get to them. Thats kinda their thing.

Spank the Fox2 votes

So when champions like Malphite. Zac, and Hecarim are good and have zero issues reaching the back line and invalidating squishies, am I not allowed to play League of Legends?

Because according to you, I’m not allowed to build defense while they can almost one rotation any champion with their bases.

U R Good At Game2 votes

Yes because not being able to beat champions that were designed to stop you as their only job in the game is good measure of balance.

Side Note: As a team game maybe you should build a team comp that allows for peel and ask your support to tank exhaust vs dive comps. ADC was not designed to be balanced for 1v1's against other classes and will never be. You are literally not supposed to win against a malphite by yourself, end of story.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Yes because not being able to beat champions that were designed to stop you as their only job in the game is good measure of balance.

God no, it isn't. Straight hard counters are not good for any game.

U R Good At Game1 votes

League has been this way literally for years.. There are champions that entire kits are designed around stopping another class. Thats why it's a team game. Instead of an ADC trying to 1v1 a malphite of all champions he says "hey supp, top or jg; You guys tryna pick something that can guard him from me?". At the end of the day, it's a team game and ADC is specific are NOT ever going to be balanced so they can 1v1 people when there lane has 2 champions. If you want to play a ranged class balanced to 1v1 other classes play mid, you are in the wrong role.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

No it hasn't. In fact, a couple years ago, there was a red post saying that players should be able to pick who they want without instantly losing.

There are picks that are good against other champs, but I can't think of a single match up that's "he picked X, I lose".

Votable Jester2 votes

item 3151 item 3165 item 3152 all have as much health on them as item 3116

Malak20 votes

All sounds great until you play Karthus and have no hard CC and easy to dodge skill shots that any mobile melee champion can outplay.

Quort22 votes

They don’t even really have to be mobile. Boots and a functioning brain are enough to dodge most of Karthus’ Qs.

Sharpest glasses2 votes

You say this cause you only play against bad Karthus and cause NA ping is so bad.

Thefrostyviking4 votes

Except he is right, with just some extra movespeed you can easily avoid karthus Q´s with no problem as long as you dont get slowed.

If you have a dash or a truly powerful/spammable movespeed buff(and high instant burst) then karthus can only die.........its no wonder his worst counters are Zoe,Cassiopeia and Kassadin

Sharpest glasses2 votes

he's not right. They're a reason Kr Karthus are so successful with him. Sure if you play a range you can easly play at his range limite, but for melee you need to predict more than react.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

From what i can tell the average korean MO is to just farm until their jungler is nearby then bait enemy into a fight.

Karthus just walks in with exhaust/barrier + slow wall and thats it, the reason however Karthus is one of the best mages for this is his ulti resulting in map impact even when he is chilling it out mid and he scales upwards like a rocket.

I am almost 100% certain that he (still) gets dicked on in 80% of his lane matchups, however he is truly one of the representatives of "lose lane win game" archetypes of this game.

Enemy carries? You mean those fellows who take 50%+ health per ult later on even with MR at any time when karthus feels like it? Yah.....

Korea plays some champs very, very different from how we do here.

Quort4 votes

They’re probably thinking more about Champions that just run up to Karthus and auto attack him in melee range which just means they’re sitting in his E and eating Qs. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Nyarlathοtep19 votes

Mages dont need rylai's? Excuse me? And how the fk do you expect a mage (that has skillshots) to have a chance to hit someone like udyr or singed? Can you imagine the frustration when you try to damage someone, only for the enemy to sidestep it with no effort? This games needs more tools to restrict enemies from darting around like they are playing a hack slash game.

HateDaddy15 votes

{quoted}

Mages dont need rylai's? Excuse me? And how the fk do you expect a mage (that has skillshots) to have a chance to hit someone like udyr or singed? Can you imagine the frustration when you try to damage someone, only for the enemy to sidestep it with no effort? This games needs more tools to restrict enemies from darting around like they are playing a hack slash game.

It’s almost as if they’re intended to require skill and thus many of them have high risk and high reward. Considering Rylais is dumpster tier currently and many mages play fine without it suggest it’s not even needed.

Nyarlathοtep1 votes

There is no skill involved for the caster (when it comes to skillshots). The caster can throw the skillshot to his targets current location and probable. The target however in both instances can adjust his course and evade the skillshot. Thats not true ofc for the caster.

Rylai's is dumpster tier because almost everyone nowadays has a dash, and rylai's is bad against dashes. If the enemy team consists of darius, maokai, ryze, jinx, soraka, then you can bet your ass that im going to buy that sweet rylai's. But its extremely rare.

AirKingNeo8 votes

Rylai's is dumbster because the item is slot inefficient.

Linna Excel2 votes

Rylai's is in the dumpster because riot overnerfed it awhile ago and didn't buff it quite enough.

Noor Sakata15 votes

in Top lane yes In Mid lane no , Melee champions in mid lane fairly got higher damage the moment they reach their enemy Imagine Melee champions being ranged Ekko 1 Q 2 aa and he will apply his passive and electrocute and will make you hate your life Fizz Poking you with his W Kassadin Poking with W actually , this also applies to some top laners Imagine Riven she will Q AA Q AA Q AA E AA W AA , and doesn't need to hit her Q or W , she just needs to apply her passive on auto attacks while perma/chasing Or Imagine Darius being ranged , he will take his passive stacks from range , which is surely not fun

The thing is being ranged takes a lot of power from the champion , however that doesn't always apply to top lane , I know the cancerous and unfair match ups , that even Gnar who is in the gutter right now is still unfun to play against when you are immobile top laner , but just wanted to explain the different for mid lane

SangreDeNoche1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Noor Sakata,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g3sc2RZ2,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-10-29T15:28:40.869+0000)

in Top lane yes In Mid lane no , Melee champions in mid lane fairly got higher damage the moment they reach their enemy Imagine Melee champions being ranged Ekko 1 Q 2 aa and he will apply his passive and electrocute and will make you hate your life Fizz Poking you with his W Kassadin Poking with W actually , this also applies to some top laners Imagine Riven she will Q AA Q AA Q AA E AA W AA , and doesn't need to hit her Q or W , she just needs to apply her passive on auto attacks while perma/chasing Or Imagine Darius being ranged , he will take his passive stacks from range , which is surely not fun

The thing is being ranged takes a lot of power from the champion , however that doesn't always apply to top lane , I know the cancerous and unfair match ups , that even Gnar who is in the gutter right now is still unfun to play against when you are immobile top laner , but just wanted to explain the different for mid lane

So you're listing mobile assassins and 1 juggernaut for your examples? Seems kinda weak.

Noor Sakata2 votes

{quoted}

So you're listing mobile assassins and 1 juggernaut for your examples? Seems kinda weak.

Talking about Mid laners.

SangreDeNoche1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Noor Sakata,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g3sc2RZ2,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2018-10-30T00:36:34.343+0000)

Talking about Mid laners.

Darius mid isn't really a thing.

Noor Sakata2 votes

{quoted}

Darius mid isn't really a thing.

Did you even read my comment? I was talking about mid laners , Mentioned Darius saying imagine

Alzon14 votes

Rylai’s isn’t an issue since it’s not very strong at all, and Mallet was specifically nerfed for ranged champions. I agree that IBG should be melee-only, or at least get the Mallet treatment and have its slow potency decreased for ranged champions.

Press Q Win2 votes

{quoted}

Rylai’s isn’t an issue since it’s not very strong at all, and Mallet was specifically nerfed for ranged champions. I agree that IBG should be melee-only, or at least get the Mallet treatment and have its slow potency decreased for ranged champions.

They did something a while ago, they made the AoE slow smaller for people not building armor. But i agree the slow potency should also be lowered.

Linna Excel10 votes

item 3025 should have been made melee only back when Ezreal started abusing it.

TheSingularity4 votes

Tbh without rylai I would never be able to stop Irelia Akali Darius DrMundo Jax Sion Shyvana Riven Tryndamere Yasuo Ahri Diana as Heimerdinger with my kit alone. They tank too much damage and/or get to me too fast

SanKakU2 votes

item 3009

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