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Lethality overturned for one patch...

HateDaddy··21 votes·1,654 views

"OMG TANKS SUCK REMEMBER WHEN TANKS COULD ACTUALLY SURVIVE!!??"

Yeah, try last fucking patch. Try the 20+ patches before that because tanks haven't been shit in a long time. Try now, because despite lethality being overturned, armor stacking is still incredibly effective against it. We all know lethality is overturned and despite the ridiculous assertions made, 400 armor tanks aren't instantly dying. I played two games last night against mostly AD comps with lethality stacking as Nasus and Maokai and I stacked armor and when I died, it'd still take 5-7 seconds of 5 man focus for them to kill me. If you think tanks should be able survive longer than 5 seconds when being focused 1v5, you're clinically insane and your opinion on balance should be dismissed from here until forever.

I'm not claiming some armor pen items don't need looking at. I frequently talk with a few posters here about balance and all of us have agreed black cleaver at the least needs to be nerfed in some way. And once lethality gets balanced and BC gets nerfed, the lethality meta will slow down significantly. And if you want to complain about the lethality meta being boring, stale, etc., that's completely fine. But don't make these batshit crazy insane assertions that full armor 3.5k 350+ armor tanks are dying in two seconds because it's not fucking true. It's never been fucking true and it's never going to be fucking true. I love talking balance and enjoy it but I don't love watching hundreds of people flooding this board with garbage essentially crying wolf over the demise of tanks every time we go from one long lasting tank dominated meta to even something slightly different.

30 Comments

ForgiveColour16 votes

Zed appears in the lcs

OMG ZHONYA NEEDS BUFFS MAGES ARE TROLL PICK MUH MANA REGRN

SlaktarTasken6 votes

400 armor tanks aren't instantly dying

God forbid a tank that invests all their gold into defensive stats don't die the second you look at them.

But ah, tanks do suck, any tank that isn't Maokai or Poppy, plainly sucks and have sucked for a long time.

People see two outlier tanks being played because they're the only ones with strong enough defensive steroids to not melt like squishy the second they get focused and hurr-durr, tank meta. Yeah.

[zombie-brand-clap]

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

400 armor tanks aren't instantly dying

God forbid a tank that invests all their gold into defensive stats don't die the second you look at them.

But ah, tanks do suck, any tank that isn't Maokai or Poppy, plainly sucks and have sucked for a long time.

People see two outlier tanks being played because they're the only ones with strong enough defensive steroids to not melt like squishy the second they get focused and hurr-durr, tank meta. Yeah.

[zombie-brand-clap]

Shen was pick/ban in NALCS this weekend and Nautilus has been strong, too. Zac is currently tier 1 as well. Tanks are extremely strong right now.

And tanks don't die the second you look at them, that's just a myth (unless they're super far behind). Please tell me what you're building and how you're still dying instantly.

MaeDoSan3 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/4EBVBoYH-the-math-behind-why-lethality-is-so-strong-right-now-potential-fix

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/4EBVBoYH-the-math-behind-why-lethality-is-so-strong-right-now-potential-fix

Pretty long post there and I respect you for explaining it but most of these lethality builds are only viable on a select handful of champions. So I'm not sure many changes need to be made. Even the ADCs that currently are stacking these items, they have one fatal flaw when it comes to tanks: no crit and no AS. We often think percentage penetration is what kills tanks but in reality, that's only half true. Crit and percentage pen + decent AS gives ADCs the ability to dps down tanks. When they don't have all 3 of those stats combined, they're still rather weak at taking tanks down. Sure, currently you can get through a lot of tanks armor but your lack of crit and AS are still going to hold you back and take a good 5-6 seconds of focus with no retaliation to kill a tank. So is it really a problem then? Probably so just because it is crowding other builds out and it does make potential damage from all ads (not just adcs) absurd, so nerfs are definitely in order.

Clearly lethality is overturned but the offender has always been percentage penetration. I think riots current approach is adequate. Nerf BC slightly and nerf lethality and see how this shakes it up next patch. If we are still seeing problems, then maybe it's time to consider nerfing the percentage pen on both BC and the LW upgrades.

MaeDoSan2 votes

maybe its just the shock people are complaining about , maybe this is true balance now adcs can do meaningful damage in mid game by sacrificing lategame damage by using lethality

Erockandroll2 votes

{quoted}

Pretty long post there and I respect you for explaining it but most of these lethality builds are only viable on a select handful of champions. So I'm not sure many changes need to be made. Even the ADCs that currently are stacking these items, they have one fatal flaw when it comes to tanks: no crit and no AS. We often think percentage penetration is what kills tanks but in reality, that's only half true. Crit and percentage pen + decent AS gives ADCs the ability to dps down tanks. When they don't have all 3 of those stats combined, they're still rather weak at taking tanks down. Sure, currently you can get through a lot of tanks armor but your lack of crit and AS are still going to hold you back and take a good 5-6 seconds of focus with no retaliation to kill a tank. So is it really a problem then? Probably so just because it is crowding other builds out and it does make potential damage from all ads (not just adcs) absurd, so nerfs are definitely in order.

Clearly lethality is overturned but the offender has always been percentage penetration. I think riots current approach is adequate. Nerf BC slightly and nerf lethality and see how this shakes it up next patch. If we are still seeing problems, then maybe it's time to consider nerfing the percentage pen on both BC and the LW upgrades.

I think some of the potential issues I see come out thou, is how champions are stacking Lethality with the %pen.

To start with, Lethality is pretty much all what a caster needs. And since it works best against unarmered targets, it works wonders as an Early pickup against an opponent who is also building glass cannon. While building BC or LW (or both) later on, giving them decent damage against the Tank, why still poking out the glass cannons. And while % pen is better on Tanks, BC and LW are really your only sources for it, Where lethality can still serve as an effective supplement. (in lieu of AS or Crit, on champs who don't scale well with those stats)

Also, while I agree that they don't exactly shred tanks. A high power Caster build can still chunk out Tanks with High levels of poke. (or any champion really) and it's hard to shrug off that damage without some level of sustain. (Not all champs have the luxury to build tons of LS, or a warmorgs) That's probably why the AD siege champs like Varus, and Jayce are top tier right now.

Another interesting thought thou, is that Edge of Night is such a good item in a Siege meta. Because it's active works well to counter Siege from your opponent, while giving you the stats to siege yourself.

ClatoVerataNicto3 votes

I'm sorry but armor does not actually have diminishing returns. 1 armor multiplies your effective hp by 1%.

1000 hp with 100 armor = 2000 physical damage to kill with zero pen. This is also your effective hp against physical. 1000 hp with 200 armor = 3000 2000hp with 100 armor = 4000 and so on.

Leathality is strong because it reduces squishy targets with low armor take near true damage because almost all of their armor is invalidated. Just like % is more valuable to high armor targets.

MaeDoSan2 votes

True but the main point is that % armor reduction is more potent on more armor making stacking armor give diminishing returns The main reason lethality might be hurting more is that it applies AFTER the % pen where as traditionally all % pen was applied AFTER flat pen making flat pen useless compared to the % reduction on tanks

ClatoVerataNicto1 votes

Flat pen has applied after % pen for quite some time now, so it's hard to say that the order is the root of evil. I believe the problem now is the abundance of penetration. If someone wishes they can invalidate 30% of your total armor and 45% of your bonus with 2 items. And lets be honest that's most of any tanks armor even though it's "bonus".

I leathality/pen build give you a fair amount of ad and allows you to hit pretty much everyone like they had no armor. There really is no drawback at this point.

MaeDoSan1 votes

Only lethality applies after the % pen , the previous stat 'flat armor pen' applied before the % pen of the previous last whisper making it useless on tanks. Lethality being introduced as a new stat also meant it was applied last. I think the best way to change this is to destroy the synergy between cleaver and last whisper so that both can't function together in the same build

ClatoVerataNicto1 votes

Sorry but again not correct. Riot swapped ℅ and flat pen a while ago. Leathality just changed the name and added the scaling component to flat pen.

MaeDoSan1 votes

How long is a while ago ? Nasus E flat reduction applies before cleaver % reduction even now

ClatoVerataNicto1 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor_penetration Go to order of calculations. Do not confuse reduction with penetration. Leathality and last whisper are penetration.

MaeDoSan1 votes

I know and I'm not confused , if you know which item the brutalizer was then you should know what I'm talking about , and the last whisper in itself was a complete item

MaeDoSan1 votes

Also the fact that making so many items based on penetration and sacrificing crit and attack speed there should be a visible negative effect on dps to tanks and a healthy trade-off should be made. This can maybe be achieved by letting pen adcs dominate mid game and having crit based ad carries dominate late game so that both paths are viable but depending on the enemy team comps and if you are maybe snowballing

LankPants3 votes

Can you tell me when the last time you saw a tank who isn't Zac, Poppy, Naut, Maokai or maybe the one off of a Shen was? Oh yeh, that's right, you don't see other tanks because they're all garbage.

The tank class this season with the exception of a few outliers has been flat out terrible.

DoktorKaiser3 votes

Tanks are actually shit since the keystone was introduced, I always feel like I die in 3 seconds unless I am super fed...

Ralanr2 votes

Are people actually complaining about lethality killing tanks? I mean, the black Cleaver combo sure, but lethality kills squishies better.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

Are people actually complaining about lethality killing tanks? I mean, the black Cleaver combo sure, but lethality kills squishies better.

yes.

The problem tanks face has always been %pen, it's never been flat pen/lethality. If you want to make an argument over %pen being busted, that's a decent argument to be had. But the claim that lethality/plat pen being responsible for killing tanks has resurfaced and I won't lie, it's the most annoying thing I've ever seen on these boards in the 5 years I've been posting on them.

LankPants5 votes

The problem tanks face has always been %pen, it's never been flat pen/lethality. If you want to make an argument over %pen being busted, that's a decent argument to be had. But the claim that lethality/plat pen being responsible for killing tanks has resurfaced and I won't lie, it's the most annoying thing I've ever seen on these boards in the 5 years I've been posting on them.

The stacked case however is fucking disgusting.

Let's say we have a level 18 tank with 90 base armour and 210 bonus armour for 300 total. The enemy MF has item 3142 item 3814 item 3036 item 3071 for pen. Assuming the tank is lv 18 she pens them down to 300x0.7-(210x0.55)-35=59.5 armour. That's too much. You shouldn't be able to get a 300 armour tank that low. I also didn't include other pen options from masteries and runes, with them it goes down to about 20 armour.

Lethality is just utterly disgusting right now. Riot needs to change the way it interacts with other pen options. Lethality and TBC's interactions with LW need to be changed. TBC should knock off Bonus armour before base so that if you stack it you don't get absurd efficiency and Lethality should apply before LW and knock off bonus armour specifically. With these changes Lethality and %pen would stack shittily, which needs to happen.

Spoofghoul2 votes

lets see 210 armor bought

240 armor shredded

thats is 114.3% armorpen kind retarded indeed

Wînter Fox1 votes

Dude you're talking about an almost full build 100% dedicated to shredding armor - nothing else. Are you saying a high level ADC who built entirely armor shredding items...SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO SHRED ARMOR??

How much sense does that make?

MaeDoSan1 votes

45% bonus armour not 55 %

Spoofghoul2 votes

most tanks are complaining about the combo with % pen

let's not forget that raw damage is already effective vs squishies, so yes lethality is overtuned especially since it is also very effective at killing neutral objectives and towers compared to other raw damage options

normie sIayer2 votes

For all of you wanting a lengthy explanation as to why tanks (in general) are fucking op as shit no matter what anyone says

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UNaUsI7aWZg

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

That bias as fuck video where he says positioning on a tank doesn't matter at all... sure good source.

Revali1 votes

pretty sure he only used the video for the thumbnail.

Skorch1 votes

Says lethality makes tanks useless --> Dont build armor on tanks --> Complain they get exploded by 5 man AD comps --> State lethality makes tanks useless -->

ACTUALLY the boards right now.

Wow good job on actual testing boards [zombie-brand-clap]

Seriously i see too much of this.

sobi9991 votes

As far as i can remember, just few weeks ago people were going mad about tanks being unkillable and dealing damage that compared to an adc. Now lethality comes and tanks become slightly weaker whereas squishy just don't have any room for counterplay , people start moaning about tanks again. You do realize that it is because of you guys that riot keeps making these changes and then messes things up. Tanks should be tanky but shouldn't be able to burst down opponents whereas lethality is currently making few champs way too strong early game. It really is unhealthy for the game. If anything i believe the squishy are suffering way too much because of lethality than tanks.

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