Boards›Gameplay

My personal feedback about 8.11

D357R0Y3R··83 votes·31,346 views

I don't know if Riot reads the boards or not, but I wanted to give my feedback as an ADC main that loves playing Ashe Jhin and Lucian (and some other adcs). I did several tests on PBE but since it's PBE we can't know exactly how it will be until it hits Live

This thread will not list the changes that were done because I assume everyone knows what will happen since it created a huge fiesta recently about how adcs are going to be "buffed"

But there is something I need to talk about, something really important that everyone needs to know. It's about patch 7.9 let's talk about patch 7.9 and how the game was before.

Blade of the ruined king was extremely broken, it made lucian tier 1 and the best adc in the game. Crit was shit or at least underbuilt, blade of the ruined king and black cleaver were both built on every adcs that could build them In march 2017, SSG Ruler made an Ashe build extremely popular where you built blade of the ruined king into black cleaver https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jol3dIjvwBA Crit was deemed underwhelming because it essentially took a long time to spike, when i say crit i'm talking about IE and IE+rfc/shiv combo PD used to cost 2550 gold and was built EVERYTIME, Runan was mandatory because it was simply overtuned Lethality ADCS were the only thing played along Varus and Ashe with BORK, other adcs who could use BORK like kog were played but due to ashe and varus utility being stronger they overshadowed him.

Then patch 7.9 arrived

https://i.gyazo.com/ba03b23b8e47b88d5cd397cdca6dbd5f.png

IE received a 200 gold buff which was the most important change, 3400 gold IE completly broke the meta IMO and on a smaller scale 1200 gold zeal. What you do on every adc right now is: BF--->zeal---->IE---->RFC/shiv---->RFC/shiv

but wait, there were more:

https://i.gyazo.com/e2ecab4d0042c1d3eed1737975c9f20a.png

Blade of the ruined king received a 100 gold nerf, which may seem nothing but made the item extremely undertuned, it's really bad right now

And after this patch the meta changed completly. Cait became the most obnoxious adc in the game, achieving a 100% pick/ban rate in pro, twitch was suddenly played, kog fell out of favor until Ardent+guinsoo meta.

Now why am I talking about that? because in next patch item 3031 is getting a 300 gold nerf which is BIGGER than the buff it got last year item 3086 is getting a 100 gold nerf, but the crit chance it gives is also being reduced and item 3085 item 3087 item 3094 item 3046 are having 200 gold nerf which is something that was not changed last year AND AT THE SAME TIME item 3153 is getting a 200 gold buff which is BIGGER than the nerf it got last year

I can't help but think that the game is basically being reverted to 7.8 but harder, Ashe Varus Lucian meta with BORK the only thing that changed is that runan is being more expensive

But wait there is more. I tried to test the difference of damage between new IE and old IE

https://i.gyazo.com/797401fb370d401644bb47b9a255e87b.jpg

this is damage on live, 435 crit damage on a 100 armor target

https://i.gyazo.com/5f3ea1f724a08e093185ffeb21198b59.jpg

this is damaage on PBE, 329 crit + 64 true damage

now before you point out "UH DU 100% CRIT" ashe cannot crit due to her passive, her passive removes the RNG it makes crit simply becoming DPS than burst, so if you want to compare DPS you should directly use Ashe as an example, 100% or 80% crit her AA will always crit and deal a bonus damage based on the amount of crit she has.

so I was curious about what was the armor threshold were you deal more damage https://i.gyazo.com/b1eec131945992481ae07a93e702721a.png someone on the french boards discord posted this and apparently it's 121 armor

But wait there is more: New infinity edge only deals bonus damage to champions, which nerfs marksmen's ability to take baron and dragon

This is a change that i totally love because it does increase the diversity, marksmen are right now too good at taking objectives which leaves you no choices but to play a marksman

In the end, crit will become terrible compared to other options that are: lethality Jhin MissFortune WHO THE FUCK THOUGHT STORMRAZOR WAS A GOOD IDEA Riot, if you wanted to design an ADC item you designed the wrong item jesus This item is pointless on so much adcs, you really have to admit that you only wanted jhin to build this item

And speaking about lethality, item 3036 is total armor penetration now, I was able to oneshot a half hp vayne with Jhin item 3009 item 3142 item 3036 4th shot, and before you ask, no crit jhin cannot do that with 2 items Like, I really hope you all remember what lethality jhin was when viable, or lethality miss fortune. I didn't try but i'm pretty sure you can oneshot someone with a miss fortune Q with stormrazor +lethality + LDR since her Q can crit

The last thing I wanted to talk about is what will happen to marksmen's base stats and fleet footwork (FFW) now, as an ADC main there is something I knew since a long time: marksmen are way too overpowered in lane. Ranged manaless damage that is point and click is rewarded by so much for no risk at all and this is something you should use in lane: abuse your range If you play Ashe you should know that having 600 range, most adcs cannot reach you in lane and if they're about to CS you can wave a free AA to win a trade. In league, Range just does not come with enough drawbacks. I never realised before the base stats nerfs how marksmen's stats were high actually As a reminder, Yasuo has 60 AD and 30 armor Caitlyn has 62 AD and 32 armor while having 650 range it just makes no sense considering how overpowered range is in lane. My point is that with -4 AD -5 armor and -2 hp regen Yasuo might be able to lane against adcs. there are some Yasuo mains who are already able to bring him botlane, with -4 AD adcs will poke less, **and they will sustain less from doran's blade **. with -2 hp regen they will sustain less and doran's shield will be weaker on them, FFW healing is also being reduced after lvl 1 and the bonus movement speed is being nuked by 50%.

To summarize what is going to happen

Ezreal will need a nerf. Already op with muramana+seraphin, but now crit is being nerfed and bork (that he already builds) will be buffed I can see new essence reaver (ER) being good on him. Additionally he does not use FFW. Lucian will make a come back, one of the strongest user of item 3153 +item 3071 combo, and ER will be strong on him. Additionally he does not use FFW. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNoyiugLmV0 Jhin absolutly broken, LDR total armor pen+lethality+stormrazor is insane, everyone who has access to PBE should try it. MissFortune Did not test her, but the same thing should happen on a scale that i do not know. Ashe Varus from crit to BORK, I assume the same thing will happen to Kaisa CaitlynXayah nerfed in every single way, they both scale too much with crit to have their power remaining the same with BORK

the changes that I support for the sake of diversity: -base stats nerfs -FFW nerfs -IE bonus damage nerfed against baron and dargon -Crit powerspike reduced, IE not giving flat crit+zeal crit reduced -ADCS burst against squishies reduced

the changes i am skeptical about: -LDR total armor pen -BORK being stronger than before 7.9

the changes i am totally against: -stormrazor, very bad idea

https://youtu.be/Nqqc2FHf9Ug?t=68

117 Comments

AMYS GRAVE20 votes

A well thought out critique post? What a fast way to ensure riot will never look at it!

Electro52220 votes

And what makes you think they won't? If anything, this is what Riot is looking for.

AMYS GRAVE8 votes

Not on these boards. All due respect but riot have all but abandoned these parts and assumed that they are nothing but vitriol and negativity and not worth their time.

RiotFearless58 votes

While the tone of boards is often not great, that just means that it's harder to engage, not to read. Appreciate the post. I know doing something like this represents a lot of time and thought, and this is exactly the sort of post I'd personally love to see more often.

Teridax6813 votes

This is understandable, but the issue here is that there is no way for us players to see which posts Riot does and does not read, let alone act on. You could all very well be reading literally every thread on Gameplay, and we'd still have no way of knowing, because there is strictly no indication out there when you do so, whether it be on the Boards, in the Dev Corner, or in the patch notes. Whenever a Rioter says that the devs do read the Boards, we can only take them on their word and whichever red post they left on a particular thread, and that's just not good enough.

This isn't to say that you don't read the threads or comments in this thread, but if nothing else, it would help to work towards a way of keeping us in the loop when you do read through a thread, even if you do engage. With just the tech at hand, a simple comment like "hey, I've read this thread" could already go a long way. With just a bit more short-term work, some sort of other icon that automatically shows up next to threads visited by a Rioter, with perhaps Rioter name and timestamp, could also help tremendously. If implemented that way, you would not even have to do any extra work to signify to us players that Riot does in fact go through the threads we write, as we'd have more than just assurances with little further acknowledgment anywhere else.

On the subject of engagement, though, while it's understandable that the devs may not want to directly interact with an environment that's often quite hostile to them, that still doesn't justify not engaging with players at all. At the end of the day, Riot is a company, and interacting with players is a job that someone has to do in order to maintain positive relations. The lack of engagement has made itself felt, and damaged the way players regard Riot on the Boards, and across the internet in general. Riot engaging with players is a necessity, not a luxury, and if it is being treated as the latter, then nobody has any business praising the game on its communications, even if they were great five years ago.

However, because interacting with players on spaces like these is a difficult and time-consuming job, it's also not really fair to put that responsibility on you specifically, or other devs, because you already have a job that takes up a huge amount of time and energy. It might therefore be better to have dedicated Rioters act as direct relays between players and the rest of the company, using their own knowledge of the game and Riot to speak as experts and bring devs in on particularly relevant topics. I know that Riot has stayed away from this due to not wanting to create distance between devs and players, but right now the net result is very much the same, in that devs simply don't have the time to deal adequately with all of the players League has amassed over time. I suggested this to a Rioter in the past (I think it may have been Riot Sparkle), and got a positive response; has there been any internal work on this in the meantime already?

Son Foku3 votes

I like the "stamped" idea. As in, "we've read it". In regards to communication, I feel the weekly posts from Meddler/Rep are pretty good as well. I also see them comment here and there, and I don't really feel they should have people full time engaging the player base in forums. I mean a lot of time there is nothing to say. Goes back to the stamped idea though, it would be nice to know they've read it and they're listening.

But then again, at the end of the day you'll just have everyone on the boards saying they're hitting 'select all' and stamping them.

Teridax684 votes

[{quoted}](name=Son Foku,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g32KQLxU,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-10T01:48:58.746+0000)

In regards to communication, I feel the weekly posts from Meddler/Rep are pretty good as well.

My personal issue with Meddler's Gameplay Thoughts is that he's mostly talking at the playerbase, rather than with us. The latter allows for dialogue and properly works with a medium in which at least two people are conversing. By contrast, the former is completely one-sided, and does not really bring in anyone else on its own: Meddler could very well be posting that stuff to an empty audience, and that much would be the same amount of "communication". He does engage with players thereafter, but rarely do his responses produce anything conclusive (S@20 generally only finds a half-dozen useful posts at most, and they typically discuss only what'll happen next patch, or tentatively the patch after).

RiotRepertoir I think has done a better job of two-way communication, mostly, but my issue with his own posting schedule is that it's completely inconsistent. One week, Repertoir's answering literally over a hundred different comments, including over the weekend, and then right after he's gone for two months. If we had devs rotating on doing this kind of thing, so that there'd be no downtime, things might be better, but a few other Rioters have also pointed out that Rep can do this because he personally can afford to commit a ton of personal time to communicating with us. I don't think we can expect this of every developer, nor should we enforce that on people who already work intense hours every week on their main job. The very fact that these people are the ones expected to also do the communicating is precisely what's contributing to these deficiencies.

[{quoted}](name=Son Foku,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g32KQLxU,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-10T01:48:58.746+0000)

I also see them comment here and there, and I don't really feel they should have people full time engaging the player base in forums. I mean a lot of time there is nothing to say.

I very much disagree with this. There is always discussion to be had, whether it's about the short-term impact of a recent patch, or the long-term design goals of certain mechanics, champions and systems. League is a game in ongoing development, and as long as there is something to improve (of which there are hundreds), then there is always room for discussion, which happens consistently on here.

[{quoted}](name=Son Foku,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g32KQLxU,comment-id=000600000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-10T01:48:58.746+0000)

But then again, at the end of the day you'll just have everyone on the boards saying they're hitting 'select all' and stamping them.

Sure, though having a specific Rioter name and timestamp associated with the stamp function could alleviate that by giving us specifics. In the end, though, if there really is no truly observable difference between Riot actually reading our posts, and only pretending to read them, then Riot is simply not working with our feedback in a manner we can clearly see. Rioters pointing to more threads, player comments, etc. could help significantly in this respect, as it would be at least proof that they acknowledged what we wrote.

On that note, I think a good example of a Rioter communicating with players is jinxylord: when he worked on reverting Rengar, he not only posted a detailed list of design goals, implementations, and so on, but also chatted with a whole bunch of PBE players, including quite a few Rengar mains, to discuss some of his ideas and which ones to implement. When he did that, he truly brought us on board the development process, and the element of player participation was undeniable. It was possible to pinpoint exactly which posts led to which changes in Rengar's revert/rework, and that I think is one of the core reasons why the project turned out successful. Ideally, every change to existing features in the game should include this kind of process, at least for champions, but in the meantime there are still some baby steps Riot can take to show that they acknowledge our feedback.

RiotFearless40 votes

First off, some real talk: If you'd like more engagement, work on communicating concisely.

Second: This reply implies that there is value in the simple knowledge that a rioter has seen a post. I think this would actually be more negative, as knowing that someone has read your comment and chosen not to talk or follow up is even worse than not knowing if you're being heard.

Third: I agree that it is Riot's duty to understand our players and hear their concerns. I believe that engaging with players has tremendous value. I also believe that every Rioter should chose their ways of engaging that limit the abuse they have to tank and maximize their effective communication. For me, boards does very badly comapred to tumblr, twitter, or even reddit. I'd love to spend more time on boards, but I do so currently with a big hit to my ability to speak with players effectively.

Lastly, I don't personally like the idea that we'd have assigned forums folks. I'd much rather we put in the work to get boards much more productive so that more folks have good reason to go on here. Unsurprisingly, I think it's important we get the incentives right, rather than forcing anyone to do something that isn't beneficial to them.

Teridax6816 votes

{quoted}

First off, some real talk: If you'd like more engagement, work on communicating concisely.

I just made several points each in concise paragraphs. If you have any advice on how to resume them, I'm all ears, but snapping back at someone who just tried to give you constructive criticism isn't a good look.

{quoted}

Second: This reply implies that there is value in the simple knowledge that a rioter has seen a post. I think this would actually be more negative, as knowing that someone has read your comment and chosen not to talk or follow up is even worse than not knowing if you're being heard.

Then why did you initially come here specifically to mention that you read this thread, and that Rioters read threads that they don't engage in? Either you show us which threads you read, if you want us to know that you read threads, or you just don't come here to justify yourself when called out on Riot ignoring threads. Trying to have your cake and eat it too has not produced positive results, and I don't really see why one would prefer to invest resources into actively not trying to fix the situation, instead of at least attempting a solution.

{quoted}

Third: I agree that it is Riot's duty to understand our players and hear their concerns. I believe that engaging with players has tremendous value. I also believe that every Rioter should chose their ways of engaging that limit the abuse they have to tank and maximize their effective communication. For me, boards does very badly comapred to tumblr, twitter, or even reddit. I'd love to spend more time on boards, but I do so currently with a big hit to my ability to speak with players effectively.

I'm sorry, Tumblr is a communications channel for Riot now? Twitter is a proper communications platform for player feedback? The only social media you mentioned that has any relevance relative to the Boards is Reddit, and Reddit isn't as negative because criticism and design discussion has been actively moderated out of the space, in favor of pro play highlights. How do you justify spreading out across all of these channels, all save for Riot's official discussion boards? This is a space designed, owned and managed by Riot: if you really don't like it, change it.

While this may not be worded in the nicest way, when it comes to negative feedback, you guys really do have to suck it up. Sure, straight-up abuse is not okay, but that's what moderators are for. No matter what you do, you will always get criticism, and that criticism will rarely be voiced by people who are perfectly even-headed. This is not unique to the Boards or to Riot, it exists for literally every game, and literally any in-game forum is filled with negativity. Let's not pretend the Boards are a special case. Moreover, I keep reading that Riot devs have "a thick skin", but what I'm seeing are a bunch of people who got so burnt by generic player complaints that they have chosen to remove themselves from their own boards, and instead hide in safe spaces where they don't need to deal with difficult questions or comments. If you really don't want to communicate properly with us, go right ahead, but then don't claim to value engaging with players. Whether you agree with my proposals or not, I think we can both agree that Riot's communication with players is not at its best, certainly not on here, and needs to change. Would you agree with this last statement?

{quoted}

Lastly, I don't personally like the idea that we'd have assigned forums folks. I'd much rather we put in the work to get boards much more productive so that more folks have good reason to go on here. Unsurprisingly, I think it's important we get the incentives right, rather than forcing anyone to do something that isn't beneficial to them.

When will you put in the work? The Boards have been dysfunctional for years now, and not a single thing has been done to fix them. I joined the moderation team last year specifically to push for the Gameplay community to become more constructive in its feedback, and saw an in-house environment rooted in apathy and inertia. Nobody was willing to put in the time, effort or resources to meaningfully improve the Boards, and what little constructive talk that did happen led to nothing. While I understand that you may have good intentions at heart here, it feels like I'm getting the same excuses again, with little in the way of constructive responses and ideas.

At the end of the day, the main problem here is one of ambiguity: we don't know which threads Rioters read, we don't know what Riot's overall communications strategy is, if there is one to begin with, and we don't know when/if the Boards will ever see the improvements they so desperately need. Your company has built an utterly shoddy discussion space that innately pushes its community away from constructive discussion, yet you still choose to blame us players, rather than push for solutions. I don't think that's okay, and I think we need to stop antagonizing each other if you want to regain our trust. If you want us to remain engaged, you will have to engage with us, one way or the other.

EDIT: One more thing I don't get: you came to this thread to supposedly give praise to a player for writing a lengthy, detailed feedback post, but when another player takes the (proportionately smaller) time and effort to also give you respectful and constructive feedback... you lash out at them? Suddenly, my oversized post is the reason why you refuse to communicate on the Boards entirely? Perhaps that wasn't your intent, but I feel your reply came across as fairly rude and dismissive, considering how I came to you politely with both a problem statement and a proposed solution.

Coltrane5 votes

The problem is not the length of your post (not only) is that you are salty. You came salty to the board, you replied salty to a Rioter and you will keep on being salty with everyone that replies to you. And that is how the boards work. Most of the people come here entitled, forgetting that, in general, Lol is a great game, with very communicative developers, and free to play.

Change your mindset and you'll get better things in the Boards.

Teridax684 votes

Offering criticism and being salty are not the same thing. Sure, I'm not entirely happy with the state of League, or the Boards, and I have plenty of criticism for both, but in doing so I am trying to help. Criticizing something and suggesting improvements is a natural part of any kind of process involving an ongoing system, and it is only by ignoring that part that the system dies. I'm not here to call Riot names, or to just bring the atmosphere of the Boards down, I'm here to do my part in giving feedback on how the game and this space can improve over time. If giving feedback about a problem is being "salty", then we could use more salt, provided of course it is formulated constructively.

I also think you should probably elaborate on what you mean by "entitled": at the end of the day, League is a product that demands a heavy commitment in time from its players, and is designed to foster long-term engagement. It is a game that needs its players much more than the players need it, and while it is indeed free to play, it nonetheless pressures players to spend money on content, including gameplay-related content. Players do have a right to make their voice heard, and while certainly nobody should expect the entire game to revolve around them, it is perfectly valid to give criticism even if you haven't yet made a monetary purchase. One should not have to spend money just to be listened to, and free-to-play games that do implement that policy tend to be rather short-lived.

For sure, League is a popular game still, but it has changed in many ways that a great deal many players have disliked, and while Riot's communications have been good a few years back, they absolutely aren't anymore, as evidenced in this very thread. Arguing the contrary by repetition does not make those any truer, and to attempt to suppress that kind of criticism is to do Riot themselves a disservice, as it deprives them of a valuable resource they should be using to grow their game and themselves.

UpDownLeftRightAB6 votes

Have Morello train you in forum tanking.

DeathBurst12 votes

Second: This reply implies that there is value in the simple knowledge that a rioter has seen a post. I think this would actually be more negative, as knowing that someone has read your comment and chosen not to talk or follow up is even worse than not knowing if you're being heard.

Concise communication: I disagree that getting "I read your post" and nothing more is worse than possibly talking into the void.

I can understand Rioters not responding for a dozen reasons. But I can't justify the time taken by making constructive and detailed, yet concise, posts if I don't have at least a modicum of hope that it'll actually get read.

Also, for Report a Bug sub-board specifically, that would let us know that at least the Bug is known and logged even if not solved yet.

Packun Flower12 votes

No disrespect to you sir, and this is quite asinine of me to point this out/say this since the topic is about negativity when discussing with the boards, but looking at your recent posts, most of them have been nothing but replying to people who are being negative, rather then actually focusing on sharing feedback and engaging in topics with players who are offering positive criticism. You're focused right now seems to be only arguing with those being negative rather than focusing on engaging those that are being positive.

Yes, it's very true that the boards can be quite negative, I myself am a very negative and "Anti Riot" player if you will. However, i will say that there are Rioters that do frequent the forum and do keep their cool and focus when they decide to reply to threads and keep their focus on the topic at hand, the moment a negative post or topic comes up, yes they acknowledge it but they stay stern and focused on whats being discussed, not what the negative user is trying to turn the topic towards.

If you make it the social norm to call the players here "negative nancies who should always be ignored because they are so negative" then you are setting the atmosphere to be just that, a negative one, when in reality you as a rioter should be working to change the boards into a more positive place, if you set the example then overtime you will see that we here on the boards to have meaningful things to say, but calling us negative all the time will make us post negative things,** respect is a give and take thing and that bridge needs time to be built up and repaired.**

AMYS GRAVE5 votes

You're focused right now seems to be only arguing with those being negative rather than focusing on engaging those that are being positive.

Yes, exactly this. They come here looking for fights instead of looking to encourage positive posts by engaging with them.

Teridax683 votes

This is the impression I've been getting as well from a great deal many more recent Riot posts, including the last one here. I don't think I was even being negative in my first reply, so much as critical and constructive, yet the response I got was still a hostile one. Even Fearless's very first post here still does nothing to address the topic at hand, and the only part he seems to have visibly cared about is the fact that you called out Riot for ignoring well-written threads. In the end, we still have no developer response on the topic of player feedback regarding the marksman changes, nor do we even have any proof that a Rioter actually picked up on any of the points brought up in the OP here. The only evidence we have is of a Rioter trying to save face, and coming across as personally offended at criticism that was directed at the dev team collectively, without singling anyone out. I don't feel this really reflects the whole "humble yet ambitious" motto we've heard from Riot before, and it seems like this may be a pretty common attitude problem at this point.

Ultîma5 votes

Hey Fearless, I appreciate the input about Rioter engagement and player communication but what are your thoughts about the points OP raised?

It's responses like these that single out a negative player comment rather than addressing the topic that generate this perception that Riot will not respond to, or care about player opinions and analysis. A recent example include the Poppy changes, which were universally agreed to be nerfs by players across every elo, and went through anyway with the result being her becoming very underpowered.

AMYS GRAVE4 votes

For me, boards does very badly comapred to tumblr, twitter, or even reddit.

Then talk to the rioters in charge of the boards and change that. Of all the platforms available this one is yours to mold to your vision of what a good communication platform could be. This problem is within your control.

Chromatic Eagle3 votes

Why do these boards do very badly compared to tumblr?

BlueHeart3 votes

these kindof replies NEED to be made more often thank you

AMYS GRAVE3 votes

If you'd like to see more posts like the one the OP put up then engage with that topic, not reply to some wangrod (my /r/mattcolville is leaking) bitching about engagement while not engaging with the topic at hand yourself. I know its hard to engage with tough subjects, but it is that engagement that encourages thought out posts in the first place and limits the negative tone you get in the follow up.

Total Eclipse14 votes

Your post comes off as a little all over the place, but it's good info. Thanks for the good read.

IMO Stormrazor isnt truly meant for ADC. It's a marksman update. Not and ADC update. I really think this item is just screaming Graves/Kindred.

Spicy Rice1 votes

Well, on pbe, apparently it screams Darius, since he's the champion that uses it the most in my games

DeusVult4 votes

how would that ever fit into Darius's build??? He needs to go BC first, it is far too good on him since it gives him AD, health, CDR, an armor shred passive and MS in combat.

And on PBE today stormrazor has had a large change to its build and its passives. Instead of criting, it will now provide 50 damage when you havent attacked for 2 seconds. This damage gets increased by your AS. (RIP Jhin using this[?]) Also the passive no longer gives MS, it now gives 8% AS for 5 seconds, stacking 5 times.

So the people who would have wanted to build stormrazor (Jhin, Top Quinn, AD assassins) are now never going to buy it. You wouldn't buy this in a crit build IMO. You are already buying 3 crit items (IE + Double zeal) You still need boots, Lifesteal or Armor pen and a defensive item.

IMO the first version of stormrazor on PBE was very niche, but the new one has no place in any build.

rtbf22343472113 votes

I DON'T CARE ABOUT NERFS

I will play JINX even if she is does ZERO damage! I will play JINX even if im RAPED in early game! I will play JINX even if HELL FREZZES OVER!

To all Jhin MissFortuneEzreal Lucian Ashe Varus

...late game we will talk!

Ps: Jinx still have her global ult

D357R0Y3R2 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

rtbf2234347214 votes

Now seriously...

[sg-zephyr]

I am totally fucked up!

Niggles913 votes

Bless

Aerial Queen Liz10 votes

They said they wanna open bot lane to other classes, do you think these changes will make that possible? You mentioned Yasuo, but how do you feel about a Veigar or a Ahri ?

D357R0Y3R14 votes

[{quoted}](name=Feathers Waltz,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g32KQLxU,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-09T13:46:12.548+0000)

You mentioned Yasuo, but how do you feel about a Veigar or a Ahri ?

First thing, with the base stats nerfs and FFW nerf you will totally be able to pick something else than an adc, AP damage on towers got increased and marksmen damage on baron got nerfed But in my opinion, it will depend on: -if your champion needs xp -if your champion can solocarry a game, by that definition i'm saying your champion needs to bring a lot of DPS

Yasuo is the only non adc champion that does not need lvls seriously all he wants is items, he couldn't care less about lvls putting lvls into his spells doesn't feel like you're increasing the power of your spells by a lot

sure maxing Q or E on him gives a lot of power, but it's not on the scale of Darius who needs to increase noxian might bonus AD, reduce Q cd, reduce W cd and increase ad ratio, reduce E cd from 24 to 12 seconds and increase the armor pen

To answer to you veigar and Ahri are both too lvl dependant, and Ahri is really good at roaming so it would be a shame to not put her mid.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

SpongebobIsLife1 votes

i imagine that cass and azir will be great.

My Waifu Vanilla3 votes

My money is more on Brand. Flexing from support to the actual carry role seems fine. He is already used to being shafted by EXP since he MAINLY a support atm, but he would work fine in the carry role as long as he either gets an engage support to make his all-ins better (like Leona) or a support that can heal him since he DOES get poked out of lane potentially (Rakan does do both although Rakan's laning phase is questionable early).

Rexxiee8 votes

Its way too much of a nerf for crit adcs in a single patch.

They are gonna be legit trash tier, and jhin and lucian gonna be completely broken.

NY645 votes

Wow that was a really good post, did not think a 100 gold change would decide whether botrk was op or super weak. I think you did a really good job informing and predicting how these changes would affect the game. But my questions are will these changes make squishes die faster or slower and will they make tanks die faster or slower? I would like to know because I’m worried with all this true damage and armor penetration being added to the game if buying armor is worth it anymore.

D357R0Y3R7 votes

Crit damage will be superior against tanks as you can see on the ashe screenshots the damage is being nerfed by like 50 damage on a 100 armor target

this means now ADCS and other squishy targets are no longer forced to build ninja tabi Currently, every ADC or yasuo or supports build ninja tabis because if you don't have them you get bursted too quickly by crit

but the total armor penetration on last whisper means that damage against squishies will be increased with lethality Because total armor works against base armor, it makes lethality stronger

Blade of the ruined king on the other hand was always an item which was better against tanks

Also:

did not think a 100 gold change would decide whether botrk was op or super weak

it was the 100 gold nerf combined with the buff of crit that made it disappearing but after the 100 gold nerf, literally everyone stopped building it jax used to build it, and now doesn't I think the only bruiser that still builds it is Aatrox not even sure

Wild Geese5 votes

They just killed stormrazer today on pbe; http://imgur.com/gallery/4S349Jp NO CRIT just 50 damage. (scaling with aspd) 8%+ bonus attackspeed (stacking up to 5x) on crits or passive. 3400 gold WOW.

I guess it was too strong before but now why bother... And what's the point of Crit items if IE is the only game in town, but so expensive... Boring.

HàrrowR3 votes

Damn that looks like a shit item now,why would anyone bother building that over botrk that gives AS AD Lifesteal and you even get that 100 damage proc that also slows,its literally better in every way possible,you don't even need crit like stormrazor does to get the item to work

HàrrowR5 votes

TBH as an ADC main since S1 i really would love if item 3153 became a core starter item for ADCs, i always hated that all the other classes had their perfect first buy that gave them all the stats they need like Fighters item 3071 / item 3074 / item 3748 Mages item 3285 (Morello before that) / item 3027
Assassins item 3142 / item 3147 / item 3146 Tanks item 3068 / item 3065

While most adcs first "item" is basically item 1038 +item 3086
Not sure why,just never liked the fact that they have to buy parts of two different items to make a makeshift first item that gives them the stats they need.

On the other hand item 3153 is basically that first and core item that gives them the stats they need,ofcourse in reality it's not worth delaying your item 3031 +item 3087 due to the fact that those two scale much better with one another and obviously give you more damage compared to going item 3153 item 3087 ,but now that Botrk price is going down,along with IE not being as effective against squishies,especially early game when true damage isn't as worth due to low armor i believe and hope that item 3153 will be making a comeback

Velasan5 votes

I'm not actually against the majority of the changes for the upcoming patch, but I'm not sure if they are going to accomplish what they set out to do either.

It seems like they will make ADC's stronger... again.. particularly caster types like MF, Jhin, and Ezreal. Stormrazer definitely seems a bit busted particularly on unintended users.

My biggest complaint in this game at the moment is still how high all the damage is and how hard it is to be actually tanky even as a tank. You essentially get punished for doing the thing you are supposed to do, which is build defense against a high damage threat.

I'm hopefully optimistic. This season definitely hasn't been as fun for me. That's not nostalgia speaking either.. I started in season 4 of Rengar Khazix meta and it wasn't that great. My favorite meta thus far was last season tank meta because it lead to more interesting (and longer) team fights.

For me it would really help if they cleared up what issue they are having with mages/tanks/adc's/supports. What is it they are supposed to be doing and not doing? I feel like they keep nerfing the parts of these characters for things they are SUPPOSED to do. Like mages have always had strong wave clear, but less ability to roam due to less mobility than assassins. Tanks not being able to tank things just seems strange... they keep adding true damage, nerfed the overall HP in the game twice, have multiple anti tank runes and items, and most of the Resolve tree is gated behind building up over the course of a game (Overgrowth, the passive HP in the tree, Conditioning at 10 minutes etc). ADC's have been a bit too strong for almost 2 seasons, but they seem reluctant to remove power from them despite making large changes to remove some power from the support role by taking away all the support specific active items.

Crossing my fingers waiting for the next meta shift.

Zeppelins circus4 votes

Jhin Jhin mains this patch: "How dare you remove the interaction!"

Jhin mains after seeing pbe: "#ART"

UpDownLeftRightAB4 votes

This is kind of the impression I was getting of the changes and I was waiting to test it on Ashe once it came to live to see how it interacted with her passive. Thanks for doing the number crunching. Yeah I think this is Riot's attempt to rotate out the bot lane compositions and go back to what they considered a healthier time. I get the impression from the massive amounts of reverts they've been doing to a number of champions.

Electro5223 votes

Another Ashe main here. You say that she will likely become tier 1 again, but how do you think she will actually perform with the inevitable lethality dominance? Assassins will rise because of all of this, won't they? The likes of Zed already makes Ashe's life a living hell, and I'm fairly certain that'll only get worse with the changes.

Also, what about Sivir? Yeah, she's pretty dependent on crit, but the new ER looks fantastic on her. Also, since she can build just raw damage, Stormrazor might not be too bad of a buy on her, right? Not as a first rush item, but maybe 3rd or 4th?

You also never mention Draven, which alot of people feel is one of the best users of Stormrazor (besides Jhin). Where do you think he'll land after the changes?

D357R0Y3R5 votes

{quoted}

but how do you think she will actually perform with the inevitable lethality dominance?

i'm just watching what is being done and the game is essentially being reverted to 7.8, where ashe and varus were tier 1

Assassins will rise because of all of this, won't they? The likes of Zed already makes Ashe's life a living hell, and I'm fairly certain >that'll only get worse with the changes.

Lol no, Zed is nothing for ashe. You can point blank ult him and you have a support to peel you off him since he needs 3 seconds to kill you there is worse than zed

You also never mention Draven, which alot of people feel is one of the best users of Stormrazor (besides Jhin). Where do you think he'll land after the changes?

because i forgot that he existed, but if draven becomes good it will mean that he will be busted, this champion was always like this

EvanThomas2 votes

Just a quick note, Ashe can crit, but it doesn't increase damage. Instead, it's an increased slow. It still counts as a critical strike, though.

D357R0Y3R3 votes

yea i know about that one, i just meant she cannot apply the bonus damage cuz that's the definition of critical strike at least on league wiki

TempName548461 votes

look at this guy acting like varus players build crit lmao

D357R0Y3R3 votes

https://youtu.be/nA_WKaeexfY?t=191

????????????

TempName548461 votes

competitive play doesn't take place on the current patch fyi.

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Varus

D357R0Y3R6 votes

yea i do know that, it's being played in 8.8 we are in 8.9

but what change happened in 8.9 that made varus stop building crit?

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by D357R0Y3R

Riot's philosophy finally turned the game into dogshit after so much years
Gameplay256 comments
357
votes
on PBE right now a full Ornn combo deals 73% max hp damage
Gameplay199 comments
141
votes
Warmog passive should not be disabled by minions
Gameplay49 comments
127
votes
Ahri 54.5% win rate now
Gameplay214 comments
124
votes
PLEASE NERF JHIN
Gameplay106 comments
122
votes
I love it when Maple Nectar talks about Kai'sa
Gameplay236 comments
116
votes